Cessationism what has ceased to exist in the church ?

[Wordsmith]

Context of 1 co 13 is prophecy tongues and knowledge gifts compared to the permanency of faith hope and love gifts. It is not about Jesus' return.

That which is perfect... Or the perfect thing.. completes tongues prophecy and knowledge gifts.

Sure does but it cannot be shown from the scripture that it is the completed canon I 1 Corinthians 13 or that it has already happened. There is no scripture that tells us we would have a completed cannon that would end the gifts God placed in the church. Men still argue over what is and what should be in the cannon of scripture.

Jesus was never incomplete in His ministry. The revelation of God's Word was.

There is no scriptural way to insert the competed cannon into 1 Corinthians 13

Have a read of what Civic put up from got questions.org... that is the scriptural basis there.

I did and gave a detailed response based on scripture. Maybe you should read my response in post #11! Still waiting for Civic to respond.I don't need to go to "Got Questions " for my information I have my Bible which I can read on my own and use to refute this error.

Oh did I mention God actually healed me through the gift of healing ,a word of knowledge and actually used an evangelist to do it. So you see it matters little to me who shouts from the computer keyboard the gifts are gone from the church, I know better from personal experience. No false teaching can ever change that fact or explain it away.

1co 13 is not the only scripture. You can see in scripture the mention of sign gifts gets less and less in the NT as you progress thru reading. Chronologically..they die out in mention.

This proves nothing other than God did not need to repeat Himself about gifts in every chapter, verse, and book in the Bible.

Anyway, this will just go round and round. The key thing is being objective, not subjective about this.

No we won't go round and round. You can make declarations about this with no scriptural backing and use only talking points already worn out on this topic and I will refute it with scripture.

 

[makesends]

I think you really have a wrong impression of the nature of God. God doesn't need to "do the big flashy shiny and loud strong bright wow" to be God. You have total gone off of the rails on this! The person suffering from cancer does not need God to be flashy so they can see a sign! They want a miracle from God because they need a miracle from a God who loves them. God can turn any bad situation for good but this error riddled teaching has caused the church to miss God's best for the church.

If you don't believe unbelief can hinder God :

Mark 6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Jesus wasn't being flashy He was being merciful!

Matthew 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.

Maybe you hadn't noticed, that I am AGAINST the notion that God needs to be big flashy shiny and loud strong bright wow! to be God. And no, the person with cancer doesn't need a miracle from God, unless that is what God determined is needed for God's purposes.

God can't do something if we don't believe? Really? What something might that be? What makes you think God wanted to do that something but was hindered and had to come up with plan B?

 

[360watt]

God doesn't rely on our belief to do His miracles. Sometimes peoples faith was rewarded that way in the Bible..but it wasn't as if faith was the requirement.

So with the gifts of the Spirit.. God could perform His Will regardless of whether He was believed in or not.

This is why cessationists point to it no longer being an age of signs and wonders..because if it was.. you would see hospitals cleared and the dead raised. And this would be happening outside of a church setting also.

 

[Wordsmith]

God can't do something if we don't believe? Really? What something might that be? What makes you think God wanted to do that something but was hindered and had to come up with plan B?

Mark 6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching. Go ahead and rip this passage out of your Bible since you don’t believe it!

 

[makesends]

Mark 6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching. Go ahead and rip this passage out of your Bible since you don’t believe it!

You would do well to separate your remarks from your quotes from Scripture by more than just capitalization. Just saying...

"He could there do no mighty work" because it was impossible to do so, or because the Father did not allow it? It doesn't say why. "He marveled at their unbelief" does not claim to be the reason he could there do no mighty work. Further, "he could do there no" does not imply that "God could do no". Furthermore, grammatically, (since he was able to heal some), the "work of power" he was not able to do can be taken to be something else, such as what he talks about earlier, perhaps laying out prophecy, or being believed as a prophet.

 

[Wordsmith]

And no, the person with cancer doesn't need a miracle from God, unless that is what God determined is needed for God's purposes.

Are you serious? If it were you who had cancer you might just have a “need” for healing. Your whatever happens must be Gods will approach is not scriptural but that is not surprising seeing that your arguments on this topic do not usually envolve scripture but mostly cliches’ and talking points worn out on this topic.

 

[Wordsmith]

You would do well to separate your remarks from your quotes from Scripture by more than just capitalization. Just saying...

Thanks for the advice but when working from my phone a perfect layout is not always forthcoming.

 

[Wordsmith]

This is why cessationists point to it no longer being an age of signs and wonders..because if it was.. you would see hospitals cleared and the dead raised. And this would be happening outside of a church setting also.

There is so much wrong with this statement it hard to know where to begin but we shall try. This “hospitals cleared out” argument had no validity at all it only show ignorance of how the gifts of the Spirit actually work . I continually have to repeat my self on this but here we go. No man possesses any gift to operate as he wills ALL gifts operate as the Spirit wills. Thus there will be no hospitals cleared unless the Spirit sends someone to do that!

1 Corinthians 12:10-12

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:​

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Yes there actually have been people raised from the dead through the prayer of believing saints long after the days of the apostles and in our day as well.

 

[Wordsmith]

"He could there do no mighty work" because it was impossible to do so, or because the Father did not allow it? It doesn't say why. "He marveled at their unbelief" does not claim to be the reason he could there do no mighty work. Further, "he could do there no" does not imply that "God could do no". Furthermore, grammatically, (since he was able to heal some), the "work of power" he was not able to do can be taken to be something else, such as what he talks about earlier, perhaps laying out prophecy, or being believed as a prophet.

If you read my quote I only said "hindered" I did not say impossible or God was incapable. I stand by my statement as proved by the scriptures.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.


Mark 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.


Psalm 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.


God can do WHATEVER he wants but He sometimes chooses to use imperfect men for some things and imperfect men sometimes do not cooperate with an all powerful God.

 

[Wordsmith]

God can't do something if we don't believe? Really? What something might that be? What makes you think God wanted to do that something but was hindered and had to come up with plan B?

God can do anything.

But my Bibles teaches that He asks us to pray for the sick, He ask us to lay hands on the sick. Why should we bother if He is just going to do it anyway apart from our participation?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I suggest you spent some more time in the scriptures on these matters and less time repeating talking points that have been worn out and rebutted on this topic.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

From Got Questions

Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) There are indications that the gift of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and miraculously speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to in Acts 2. As for the gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was primarily associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship (2 Corinthians 2:12; Hebrews 2:4); and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently demonstrated.

The reasons stated above are reasons cessationists believe the miraculous sign gifts have ceased. It is important to remember, though, that cessationists believe God still continues to work through the other gifts of the Spirit. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

Do you agree or disagree, why or why not ?

Nothing but standard meaningless Cessationist "boiler plate".

I wouldn't argue that there's little evidence of miraculous activity in the middle ages.

What YOU have to do is prove that God CAN'T or WON'T restore the "Charisma" in His own timing, and pleasure. That's to say why couldn't He, or Wouldn't He, at HIS PLEASURE Bring them back in power???

 

[360watt]

God could do signs and wonders again.. but what would be the purpose?

Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Jews..when the churches were incorporating not just Jews into God's Kingdom..but Gentiles. The Jews thought their rituals and ceremonies were making the right in the eyes of God..so He turned to the Gentiles. This was confirmed by God through the Gentiles as signs and wonders which showed that He had turned to them.

This purpose was fulfilled in their time. Both Jew and Gentile could have the same faith and system of service in the NT churches. With the NT as their road map.

God could restore the charismata but it would have to be for particular purposes. Most of the world is reached now with the gospel.. the need for missionaries to miraculously speak in other nations tongues is passed.

The purpose of tongues, knowledge and prophecy is the key question.

 

[Wordsmith]

God could do signs and wonders again.. but what would be the purpose?

The same as it has always been to bless the people He loves!

Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Jews..when the churches were incorporating not just Jews into God's Kingdom..but Gentiles. The Jews thought their rituals and ceremonies were making the right in the eyes of God..so He turned to the Gentiles. This was confirmed by God through the Gentiles as signs and wonders which showed that He had turned to them.

This purpose was fulfilled in their time. Both Jew and Gentile could have the same faith and system of service in the NT churches. With the NT as their road map.

Not the only purpose for tongues! Read your Bible it is spelled out for you but you are stuck on this talking point.

God could restore the charismata but it would have to be for particular purposes. Most of the world is reached now with the gospel.. the need for missionaries to miraculously speak in other nations tongues is passed.

There are testimonies of this happening in our day but your doctrine refuses to hear or believe them.

The purpose of tongues, knowledge and prophecy is the key question.

We have already touched on tongues, do you even know what a "word of knowledge" actually is or what "prophecy" in this context actually is? From what you post I doubt that you do.

I have heard of examples of Christians who have been used in some of these gifts that if ask would still they deny they exist simply because of ignorance of what they are.

Did you know that Jesus Himself was actually used in all of the gifts of the Spirit with the exception of tongues , but some even argue that He did use them? While it is not clear from Scripture that He did, there is no proof He did not.

Jesus was always the Son of God, but He operated while in this earth as a man anointed and filled with the Spirit. That can be proven from scripture.

 

[EarlyActs]

Not the only purpose for tongues! Read your Bible it is spelled out for you but you are stuck on this talking point.

The previous person seemed to be stuck on a 'sign for the Jews.' I want to explain the purpose here. I will work backward from I Cor14's quote of Isaiah: that the other tongues will speak (Israel). The Pentecost event was partly to wake up Israel to its mission, to get it launched. The after-event did that automatically: the people returning home from Pentecost would now have two dazzling lights in their eyes and could hardly avoid talking about them.

The event glorified Christ by publicizing what he had done, and that went as wide as the Roman world, if not more. That's the message (that Christ was enthroned as David saw by the resurrection, that all nations should serve him) is what is going out.

To the generous onlooker, Pentecost is enough by itself. But others were added at the beginning, Heb 2, to confirm the word of the Lord. If we rehearse them for all the exciting impact they have, that should do. But there are times when God works new signs for general belief, to crack skepticism.

 

[makesends]

Are you serious? If it were you who had cancer you might just have a “need” for healing. Your whatever happens must be Gods will approach is not scriptural but that is not surprising seeing that your arguments on this topic do not usually envolve scripture but mostly cliches’ and talking points worn out on this topic.

It may be that I have fatal cancer. But what I NEED is God.

 

[Wordsmith]

It may be that I have fatal cancer. But what I NEED is God.

Yes you and I and everyone needs God. Your statement is s cop out from actually dealing with the scriptural facts here. You act as if we are imposing on God if we need a healing when God made provision for us to receive it. You have been taught wrong on this and are spreading error. I hope you don’t have contact with anyone who needs or desires a miracle from God. If you can’t encourage or build faith, it would be better if you said nothing to the one in need.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[makesends]

God can do anything.

But my Bibles teaches that He asks us to pray for the sick, He ask us to lay hands on the sick. Why should we bother if He is just going to do it anyway apart from our participation?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I suggest you spent some more time in the scriptures on these matters and less time repeating talking points that have been worn out and rebutted on this topic.

You didn't notice that I was remarking on YOUR words? I could go on and on with your sophistry. God doesn't ASK us to pray. He tells us. Why be "nice" with the words?

Where do you get the notion that I believe that God is going to do it anyway without our participation? He involves our participation because he decreed from the beginning that we would participate, every time that we do.

You're like the rest, that seem to think that if we say that God decrees everything, from the big general themes to the tiniest detail, that somehow implies that everything is automatic. Far from it! It is not automatic. It is only SURE to come to pass, both the bad and the good.

I suggest you keep your advice to yourself. Your notion that because I don't see from your self-deterministic point-of-view means I don't spend time in the Word of God seems to me a bit arrogant.

 

[360watt]

The same as it has always been to bless the people He loves!


Not the only purpose for tongues! Read your Bible it is spelled out for you but you are stuck on this talking point.


There are testimonies of this happening in our day but your doctrine refuses to hear or believe them.


We have already touched on tongues, do you even know what a "word of knowledge" actually is or what "prophecy" in this context actually is? From what you post I doubt that you do.

I have heard of examples of Christians who have been used in some of these gifts that if ask would still they deny they exist simply because of ignorance of what they are.

Did you know that Jesus Himself was actually used in all of the gifts of the Spirit with the exception of tongues , but some even argue that He did use them? While it is not clear from Scripture that He did, there is no proof He did not.

Jesus was always the Son of God, but He operated while in this earth as a man anointed and filled with the Spirit. That can be proven from scripture.

Well Jesus wouldn't need to operate in the gifts..He is God.. He can do as He wills. I don't think He would have needed the gifts as they would be intrinsically part of Him, as God.

He would give gifts...but not need the gifts Himself. IMO

 

[360watt]

Not the only purpose for tongues! Read your Bible it is spelled out for you but you are stuck on this talking point.

The previous person seemed to be stuck on a 'sign for the Jews.' I want to explain the purpose here. I will work backward from I Cor14's quote of Isaiah: that the other tongues will speak (Israel). The Pentecost event was partly to wake up Israel to its mission, to get it launched. The after-event did that automatically: the people returning home from Pentecost would now have two dazzling lights in their eyes and could hardly avoid talking about them.

The event glorified Christ by publicizing what he had done, and that went as wide as the Roman world, if not more. That's the message (that Christ was enthroned as David saw by the resurrection, that all nations should serve him) is what is going out.

To the generous onlooker, Pentecost is enough by itself. But others were added at the beginning, Heb 2, to confirm the word of the Lord. If we rehearse them for all the exciting impact they have, that should do. But there are times when God works new signs for general belief, to crack skepticism.

Yea well there is a difference in the operation of the gifts from acts to Corinthians. From Gentiles seperate from Jews to the Corinth congregation of all together.

In Acts the clear purpose was there .. then with Corinth .. they were mixing pagan practices in there and also doing other things like abusing the Lord's Supper.

So the operation of the gifts was as per Acts it seems to me..but the disorder in the Corinthians bought admonishing and correction from God thru Paul.

 

[EarlyActs]

Yea well there is a difference in the operation of the gifts from acts to Corinthians. From Gentiles seperate from Jews to the Corinth congregation of all together.

In Acts the clear purpose was there .. then with Corinth .. they were mixing pagan practices in there and also doing other things like abusing the Lord's Supper.

So the operation of the gifts was as per Acts it seems to me..but the disorder in the Corinthians bought admonishing and correction from God thru Paul.

Yet he quoted Isaiah to bring them back to the one purpose.