Can a non elect person get saved?

[Mr GLee]

But He accomplished that only as a point of foreknowledge, not as a point of decree. You fail to understand that the acts of all mankind that God foreknows are indeed certain but it is not His foreknowledge that makes it certain; rather, it is certain by the fact of the choice made by the each. Only very occasionally does God force (decree) the choice. And He does not decree and has not ever decreed the choice of anyone involving their own salvation.

I would offer it is God who choses by force (let there be).

Two kinds of forces .one evil the father of lies .The other Christ in us the "let there be" power of his faithfulness forces thing not seen to be made seen His work of faithfulness a labor of His Love

Matthew 11:12 Since the time John the Baptizer came until now, God’s kingdom has been going forward strongly. And people have been trying to take control of it by force.

Jeremiah 23:10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.

 

[prism]

You mean like,

"Yes, LORD, Your invisible attributes, eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what has been made, so that all are without excuse...... but I wasn't one of the elect and that's unfair!"​

Something like that?

Something like, "I was brainwashed since a child that we came from animals and have ever since seen so called 'creation' as an inevitable process of evolution, besides, those elect ones were given eyes to see past the natural order of things even to the point of receiving your Son as their only hope of salvation.."

 

[prism]

Whatevet happened to posts #20 & #21?

 

[Red Baker]

Yes, amend Post #8 accordingly, noting that truth does not change the fact the pool from which the elect were chosen is a pool comprised entirely of sinfully sinful sinners. None of the elect were ever sinless, and thinking there are two types of people where one group is inherently sinless and the other inherently sinful (making God "unfair") is a failure in correctly understanding scripture's description of the elect.

This is true, yet God's election of grace took place before any had a chance to do evil or good, before God had created Adam and Eve, and even without God foreseeing who would do this or that. Just as it was in the case concerning Jacob and Esau. Election of grace is based solely upon the good pleasure of God to do as he pleases.

We understand correctly the condition of all men and their end if God had not purpose to have an election based on grace and not on works.

None would ever had been saved by the works of the flesh, impossible. God was not surprise, as you well know with Adam's disobedience; and neither was he surprise with the angels leaving their first estate~there's only One Being that is immutable and that is God.

Jesus proved to be the Son of God by the spirit of holiness!

Romans 1:4​

“And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”

PS~This short post was not written so much for you, as it was written for the learning and understanding of others.

 

[Mr GLee]

But He accomplished that only as a point of foreknowledge, not as a point of decree. You fail to understand that the acts of all mankind that God foreknows are indeed certain but it is not His foreknowledge that makes it certain; rather, it is certain by the fact of the choice made by the each. Only very occasionally does God force (decree) the choice. And He does not decree and has not ever decreed the choice of anyone involving their own salvation.

God is one mind always performs what so ever his soul desires "Let there be" Who could can turn him????

The law of Christ's faith or power of God "let there be" and the names were written in the lambs book of life from the six days Christ did work.

Job 23:12-16 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me

Who makes your heart soft?

 

[JIM]

God is one mind always performs what so ever his soul desires "Let there be" Who could can turn him????

The law of Christ's faith or power of God "let there be" and the names were written in the lambs book of life from the six days Christ did work.

Job 23:12-16 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me

Who makes your heart soft?

The question is not whether or not that God chose the saved before the creation. The question is on what basis did God choose the saved. God did not choose the saved, as claimed by Calvinism (Reformed Theology), apart from the actions of the individuals themselves. He chose them based upon His foreknowledge of their faith and response to the gospel. He knew from before the creation, His foreknowledge, who would believe and be baptized.

 

[JIM]

This is true, yet God's election of grace took place before any had a chance to do evil or good, before God had created Adam and Eve, and even without God foreseeing who would do this or that.

Are you suggesting that God could not and did not foresee who would do this or that? Or are you suggesting that the reason He could and did foresee who would do this or that is only because He caused them to do this or that?

Just as it was in the case concerning Jacob and Esau. Election of grace is based solely upon the good pleasure of God to do as he pleases.

The "election" of Jacob and Esau was not election to salvation and condemnation respectively, but rather theirs were election for service. "The older will serve the younger." (Rom 9:12).

 

[Mr GLee]

The question is not whether or not that God chose the saved before the creation. The question is on what basis did God choose the saved. God did not choose the saved, as claimed by Calvinism (Reformed Theology), apart from the actions of the individuals themselves. He chose them based upon His foreknowledge of their faith and response to the gospel. He knew from before the creation, His foreknowledge, who would believe and be baptized.

Hi thanks

To believe a faithful powerful God not seen is to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. . The washing an renewing of the water of the word. Doctrines of Christ that fall like rain (Deuteronomy 32:1-2 )

I think on the basis of "let there creatively be" . . . .The law of Christ's faith or belief ."It is God alone good. "

Christ powerfully working in us with us Emanuel. . to both (the key) reveal his understanding and empower dying mankind to do it to His good and powerful pleasure

In that way .I would think be careful how we hear or say we do.

Jesus the Son of man did the will of the Father with delight. Some Like Jonah murmured kick against the pricks and wanted to die Learning the hard way like most of us

God is not served by the dying hand of sinful mankind in any way shape or form

Philippians 2;13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Remember we are not what we will be. Today we reason from a body of death.

His living loving commandment our not burdensome .We call look from a heavenly perspective as it is written the eternal things.

 

[Josheb]

Something like, "I was brainwashed since a child that we came from animals and have ever since seen so called 'creation' as an inevitable process of evolution, besides, those elect ones were given eyes to see past the natural order of things even to the point of receiving your Son as their only hope of salvation.."

Rule 10:

No profanity, pornographic, sexually offensive, sexually explicit, or similarly related material or gratuitously violent content allowed. This includes words purposely misspelled or alternate use of characters to indicate such statements, mockery, ridicule, or blatant disrespect.

 

[Josheb]

This is true...

No, there is not "yet." It is true that God chose the elect from among sinners, and there are no formerly-not-sinners in the elect.

, yet God's election of grace took place before ....

Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my original point.

The original point is that the matter of "fairness" asked bout in this op s a red herring. What would be fair and just is for God to destroy all humanity because ALL have sinned and fallen short of His glory. That God, from eternity, chose to save some is another valid point in its entirety. The elect come from the pool of all sinners. God decided who He'd save before a single one of us ever drew breath.

 

[Red Baker]

Are you suggesting that God could not and did not foresee who would do this or that?

Jim, that is not what I said~I said:

This is true, yet God's election of grace took place before any had a chance to do evil or good, before God had created Adam and Eve, and even without God foreseeing who would do this or that. Just as it was in the case concerning Jacob and Esau. Election of grace is based solely upon the good pleasure of God to do as he pleases.

Jim, God is infinite in knowledge, he knew every single thoughts of every person that they would ever think, before he ever put into motion his eternal decrees. So, you can put that to bed once and for all.

Or are you suggesting that the reason He could and did foresee who would do this or that is only because He caused them to do this or that?

Not saying that either, even those he does cause men to do his will for the good of his people, and for the punishment of the wicked. Read more carefully what I do say...... please.

The "election" of Jacob and Esau was not election to salvation and condemnation respectively, but rather theirs were election for service. "The older will serve the younger." (Rom 9:12).

Romans 9:12​

“It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.”

Jim, this unscriptural allegation, which you are trying to suggest/teach, is so derogatory to the Holy Scriptures, and utterly repugnant to their character as a revelation from God based upon the strong language used throughout Romans nine and the word of God as a whole.

Even the next verse is given to prove our position that these scriptures in Romans nine are speaking of God showing mercy to one and not to another, even twins born of the same parents.

Romans 9:14​

“What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.”

Jim, the Apostle anticipated the objection of the carnal mind to his doctrine. Does not loving Jacob and hating Esau before they had done any good or evil, imply that there is injustice in God? This objection clearly proves that the view taken of the preceding passages is correct. For it is this view which suggests the objection. Is it just in God to love one who has done no good, and to hate one who has done no evil? If the assertion respecting loving Jacob and hating Esau admitted of being explained away in the manner that so many do, there could be no place for such an objection. And what is the Apostle’s reply? Nothing but a decided rejection of the supposition that God’s treatment of Jacob and Esau implied injustice. By asking the question if there be unrighteousness with God, he strongly denies that in God there is here any injustice; and this denial is sufficient. According to the doctrine which he everywhere inculcates, consistently with that of the whole of Scripture, God is represented as infinitely just, as well as wise, holy, good, and faithful. In the exercise of His sovereignty, therefore, all that God wills to do must be in strict conformity with the perfection of His character. He cannot deny Himself; He cannot act inconsistently with any of His Divine attributes.

 

[Red Baker]

No, there is not "yet." It is true that God chose the elect from among sinners, and there are no formerly-not-sinners in the elect.

Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my original point.

The original point is that the matter of "fairness" asked bout in this op s a red herring. What would be fair and just is for God to destroy all humanity because ALL have sinned and fallen short of His glory. That God, from eternity, chose to save some is another valid point in its entirety. The elect come from the pool of all sinners. God decided who He'd save before a single one of us ever drew breath.

Greetings Josheb~You are right concerning the OP, I was thinking more of the topic of the thread~it kinda threw me off course from where I should be.

 

[prism]

Rule 10:

No profanity, pornographic, sexually offensive, sexually explicit, or similarly related material or gratuitously violent content allowed. This includes words purposely misspelled or alternate use of characters to indicate such statements, mockery, ridicule, or blatant disrespect.

I wasn't mocking or ridiculing anyone. I was simply stating my own struggle with the concept of election due to excuses I foresee the nonelect having on Judgment. Day, which is as I stated...

"Something like, "I was brainwashed since a child that we came from animals and have ever since seen so called 'creation' as an inevitable process of evolution, besides, those elect ones were given eyes to see past the natural order of things even to the point of receiving your Son as their only hope of salvation.."

 

[Josheb]

I wasn't mocking or ridiculing anyone. I was simply stating my own struggle with the concept of election due to excuses I foresee the nonelect having on Judgment. Day, which is as I stated...

"Something like, "I was brainwashed since a child that we came from animals and have ever since seen so called 'creation' as an inevitable process of evolution, besides, those elect ones were given eyes to see past the natural order of things even to the point of receiving your Son as their only hope of salvation.."

My answer to that is no different than that which I have already posted. It won't matter what anyone says because 1) God has made Himself known and 2) What anyone says will not matter. The question of God's fairness is a red herring, and it is the presuppositional belief anyone (elect or non-elect has any case (argument) to present to God apart from Christ crucified and resurrected that is the problem to be solved.

Of course, that cannot be said to the unsaved, they incorrectly think they have a voice when they do not and telling them they do not have a voice and their eternal destiny is not up to them will, in their mind, serve as an excuse, a justification for walking away from the God hypothesis in its entirety.

Which is why it's best not to play that game with naysayers. The better play is to try to get at the core issue they are NOT telling you about; the thing that keeps them in their mind from coming to God. There is a pre-existing, presuppositional reason, for example, why a person incorrectly thinks fairness is valid. Get to that, and the entire conversation changes.

Has my original question been answered?

Why is fairness a concern in the first place?

.

 

[prism]

Why is fairness a concern in the first place?

Because we have a 'fair God' not one who is a respecter of persons. (Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11).

Don't get me wrong, I'm convinced election is true, otherwise we are deep into works. It's just a nagging issue for me.

 

[Josheb]

Because we have a 'fair God' not one who is a respecter of persons. (Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11).

Hmmm...

Acts 10:34 is about God's welcome, not His election. Romans 2:11 is about the elect, not the non-elect. That Acts 10:34 is about God's welcome is self-evident from the text itself. The context is not so obvious with Romans 2:11, but once we ask ourselves, "Who are the 'Jew and the Greek," about whom Paul is writing?" the context becomes more apparent. Paul is not writing about who is/isn't elect, and Paul is not writing about how anyone becomes elect. Romans 2 is about admonishing Christians, the already-elect elect, about their judging others.

You, the elect, should be careful about judging other when you do the same things they do because you, too, will be judged by God. And when it comes to God's judgment of the elect..... all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.​

That is the case Paul is presenting. This is confirmed by identifying the audience affiliation, the "you" of the text.

Romans 2:1-16
Therefore, you have no excuse, every one of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Paul identifies the "you" ate the beginning of the epistle.

Romans 1:1-7
Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul is writing to the saints in Rome. Paul is writing to the saints about the saints. He's writing about the saint's practice of judging another, especially when the judgmental saint practices the exact same behavior s/he's judging. It has nothing to do with election.

Don't get me wrong, I'm convinced election is true, otherwise we are deep into works. It's just a nagging issue for me.

Perhaps it's nagging for you because the scriptures thought to be relevant have not been correctly understood. Neither Acts 10:24 nor Romans 2:11 are about election. Therefore, the question I have asked remains unanswered. Regardless of God's fairness with His welcome and His impartiality when He judges the already-elect....

Why is fairness a concern in election in the first place?


.

 

[prism]

Acts 10:34 is about God's welcome, not His election.

Does God welcome the non-elect?

 

[JIM]

The problem with this topic is that it begins with a false concept or meaning of "elect", or at least a concept or meaning of "elect" that is not universally held. The lack of agreement on word meanings leads to all manner of strange discussion.

 

[JIM]

Does God welcome the non-elect?

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Rom 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me." 21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Sort of makes a sham out of the Calvinist teaching of "elect".

 

[prism]

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Rom 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me." 21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Sort of makes a sham out of the Calvinist teaching of "elect".

No it doesn't,
God's calling is effectual...

Romans 8:28-30 NKJV
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. [29] For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Galatians 1:15-16 NKJV
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, [16] to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,

Free will is about 180 degrees from the truth of Scripture.