Can a non elect person get saved?

[JIM]

To rearrange the punctuation of the text is to misquote the text. It doesn't say this, and then that. It says the whole thing as one thought. Further, the Greek is sometimes more clearly translated, instead of, "because all sinned", as, "in that all sinned". I know the concept is difficult for one bent on self-determinism, of "we do so because it is so", but our sin, there, is proof of what we are.

Maybe it is just your failure to recognize old English meanings as the translators/interpreters of the more modern versions have.

 

[JIM]

Agreed. That is what I have been saying is the correct use of the text. All mankind is under the principle. If anyone is to be saved, it is by the second 'Adam'.

It is not talking about being saved. It is talking about how one comes into this world. We come into the world not needing to be saved. We need to be saved only once we have committed sin. That is why Jesus spoke of needing to be born again in our spirit.

 

[David Lamb]

It is not talking about being saved. It is talking about how one comes into this world. We come into the world not needing to be saved. We need to be saved only once we have committed sin. That is why Jesus spoke of needing to be born again in our spirit.

When we are born into the world, we are "in Adam" and we need saving from that, because we are told:

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1Co 15:22 NKJV)

It's because of the fact that in Adam all die that Ephesians says:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Eph 2:1 NKJV)

 

[JIM]

When we are born into the world, we are "in Adam" and we need saving from that, because we are told.

What do you think "in Adam" means? It simply is a designation of the human being. The only place it appears is 1 Corinthians 15:22 and that is speaking strictly of physical death. Physical death is an integral part of the creation and not the result of the sin of Adam.

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1Co 15:22 NKJV)

That verse is talking about physical death, the eventual state of all living beings, and the resurrection of all men when Christ comes again at the end of the age. There is nothing there about the spiritual condition of man when he is born into this world.

It's because of the fact that in Adam all die that Ephesians says:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Eph 2:1 NKJV)

No, 1 Corinthians 15:22 is speaking of physical death while Ephesians 2:1 is speaking of spiritual death due to sin. They are not the same at all.

 

[JIM]

Because you asked, "Why would I think that?"

You are going around in circles. I don't have time for the likes of that nonsense.

 

[David Lamb]

What do you think "in Adam" means? It simply is a designation of the human being. The only place it appears is 1 Corinthians 15:22 and that is speaking strictly of physical death. Physical death is an integral part of the creation and not the result of the sin of Adam.

That verse is talking about physical death, the eventual state of all living beings, and the resurrection of all men when Christ comes again at the end of the age. There is nothing there about the spiritual condition of man when he is born into this world.

No, 1 Corinthians 15:22 is speaking of physical death while Ephesians 2:1 is speaking of spiritual death due to sin. They are not the same at all.

I respect your beliefs Jim, but I don't agree on the matter of physical and spiritual death. After all, Adam was told that in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, he would die. He didn't die physically in that day, but he did spiritually.

 

[JIM]

I respect your beliefs Jim, but I don't agree on the matter of physical and spiritual death. After all, Adam was told that in the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, he would die. He didn't die physically in that day, but he did spiritually.

The reason he died physically was because he was ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the Tree of Life (Gen 3:22). The only purpose for the Tree of Life in the Garden was to keep Adam and Eve from dying so long as they were spiritually alive. That means that as created, they were physically mortal, that is, as created physical death was an integral feature of creation. They didn't die physically directly due to sin, but rather they died physically indirectly because when they sinned, they died spiritually in that instance and God would no longer grant them to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

We, being descendants of Adam, have inherited his physical mortality which is, as I noted, an integral feature of creation. We have not inherited his "spiritual mortality". That is not a feature of creation but comes as a result of our own individual sin. In fact, the spirit of each individual human being is formed by God, Himself (Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7) and is not in any way connected to Adam.

 

[David Lamb]

The reason he died physically was because he was ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the Tree of Life (Gen 3:22). The only purpose for the Tree of Life in the Garden was to keep Adam and Eve from dying so long as they were spiritually alive. That means that as created, they were physically mortal, that is, as created physical death was an integral feature of creation. They didn't die physically directly due to sin, but rather they died physically indirectly because when they sinned, they died spiritually in that instance and God would no longer grant them to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

We, being descendants of Adam, have inherited his physical mortality which is, as I noted, an integral feature of creation. We have not inherited his "spiritual mortality". That is not a feature of creation but comes as a result of our own individual sin. In fact, the spirit of each individual human being is formed by God, Himself (Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7) and is not in any way connected to Adam.

Thanks for the reply, Jim. There is Romans 5:19:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” (Ro 5:19 NKJV)

Who is the "one man" there? Surely it refers to Adam.

 

[JIM]

Thanks for the reply, Jim. There is Romans 5:19:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” (Ro 5:19 NKJV)

Who is the "one man" there? Surely it refers to Adam.

Yes, but if you read the last half of that sentence, by Jesus' obedience those same many will be made righteous. Thus, if the first half of that sentence relates to man's condition coming into the world, then the "for as -- so also" construction demands that the second half also relates to man's condition coming into the world. Therefore, Romans 5:12-19 is saying that the effect of Jesus' obedience was to negate any affect that Adam's disobedience might have had on those being born into the world. The original sin that might have been due to Adam's disobedience was negated entirely and instead it is original grace due to Jesus' obedience. We come into the world with a spirit given us by God directly that is free from any taint from Adam. And we remain so until we become dead in our own trespasses and sins.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

It is our trespasses, not Adam's. God does not hold us accountable for the sins of any but ourselves. God devoted the entire Ezekiel chapter 18 for debunking the false notion of any guilt due to anyone but our own selves. And that includes Adam.

 

[David Lamb]

Yes, but if you read the last half of that sentence, by Jesus' obedience those same many will be made righteous. Thus, if the first half of that sentence relates to man's condition coming into the world, then the "for as -- so also" construction demands that the second half also relates to man's condition coming into the world. Therefore, Romans 5:12-19 is saying that the effect of Jesus' obedience was to negate any affect that Adam's disobedience might have had on those being born into the world. The original sin that might have been due to Adam's disobedience was negated entirely and instead it is original grace due to Jesus' obedience. We come into the world with a spirit given us by God directly that is free from any taint from Adam. And we remain so until we become dead in our own trespasses and sins.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

I don't want to take this thread off-topic, but would just say that the verse doesn't say that it is the same "many". I remember hearing a preacher say that we sin because we are sinners, not that we are sinners because we sin.

 

[JIM]

I don't want to take this thread off-topic, but would just say that the verse doesn't say that it is the same "many". I remember hearing a preacher say that we sin because we are sinners, not that we are sinners because we sin.

That preacher was wrong. We are sinners because we sin. If we sin because we are sinners, then Jesus. being one of us, would have been a sinner. He wasn't. Our spirits come from God, not our parents. God does not give us spirits dead in Adam' sin.

And this biblical fact relates, at least indirectly, to the topic of the OP.

 

[David Lamb]

That preacher was wrong. We are sinners because we sin. If we sin because we are sinners, then Jesus. being one of us, would have been a sinner. He wasn't. Our spirits come from God, not our parents. God does not give us spirits dead in Adam' sin.

And this biblical fact relates, at least indirectly, to the topic of the OP.

No, Jesus wasn't a sinner. He wasn't "in Adam" - He didn't inherit Adam's sinnership. Nor did He sin Himself, either by leaving undone things that should be done, or by doing things that were against His heavenly Father's laws.

 

[JIM]

No, Jesus wasn't a sinner. He wasn't "in Adam" - He didn't inherit Adam's sinnership. Nor did He sin Himself, either by leaving undone things that should be done, or by doing things that were against His heavenly Father's laws.

That is correct. Jesus wasn't a sinner, because He didn't sin. And that had nothing to do with Adam. There is no such thing as inheriting "Adam's sinnership". That is the whole point of Romans 5:12-19. The doctrine of Original Sin is a truly vile and vulgar false doctrine. It makes a mockery of God's love for His creation. It makes God the author and perfector of our sin; for if Adam's sin is imputed to us, it would be God and only God who could do that. And He didn't and doesn't.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

 

[David Lamb]

That is correct. Jesus wasn't a sinner, because He didn't sin. And that had nothing to do with Adam. There is no such thing as inheriting "Adam's sinnership". That is the whole point of Romans 5:12-19.

But I can only repeat, Romans 5:19 tells us that by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners. Who else was that "one man" if not Adam?

 

[JIM]

But I can only repeat, Romans 5:19 tells us that by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners. Who else was that "one man" if not Adam?

But Romans 5:19 tells us that by one man's obedience the many were made righteous. That one man was Jesus. It does not say that some of the many that were made sinners was made righteous. It is the very same many in both cases. That is emphasized in verse 18 where it states that all men were made righteous. That means that instead of coming into the world unrighteous, we come into the world righteous. Only later, when we sin, do we become unrighteous. It is only then that we become dead in our trespasses and sins.

 

[David Lamb]

But Romans 5:19 tells us that by one man's obedience the many were made righteous. That one man was Jesus. It does not say that some of the many that were made sinners was made righteous. It is the very same many in both cases. That is emphasized in verse 18 where it states that all men were made righteous. That means that instead of coming into the world unrighteous, we come into the world righteous. Only later, when we sin, do we become unrighteous. It is only then that we become dead in our trespasses and sins.

We are not going to agree on this, as far as I can see. Rather than keep on writing the same things a=in answering each others' posts, I'll stop, just hoping that you won't be offended.

 

[JIM]

We are not going to agree on this, as far as I can see. Rather than keep on writing the same things a=in answering each others' posts, I'll stop, just hoping that you won't be offended.

I am not offended. I am disappointed that anyone would think such a terrible thing could be from God.

And with that I'll also stop.

May God bless you in your studies.

 

[David Lamb]

I am not offended. I am disappointed that anyone would think such a terrible thing could be from God.

I know I said I was going to stop, but I must just assure you that just as God didn't cause Adam and Eve to sin and fall in the first place, so He is in no way the author of our sin. I'm glad you are not offended. Thank you.

 

[JIM]

I know I said I was going to stop, but I must just assure you that just as God didn't cause Adam and Eve to sin and fall in the first place, so He is in no way the author of our sin. I'm glad you are not offended. Thank you.

You don't have to answer, but your should answer for yourself that if not God, then who made you a sinner. Such power is not and was not within Adam or anyone else. And with that I will stop.

 

[David Lamb]

You don't have to answer, but your should answer for yourself that if not God, then who made you a sinner. Such power is not and was not within Adam or anyone else. And with that I will stop.

Satan, who as the serpent in the Garden of Eden first tempted Eve.