Baptism beliefs

[Fred]

Now we're down to it.

Those in Acts believed before they were water baptized,

Fixed it for you by the boldface above.

Their baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 (cf. 11:16) demonstrates they were saved before their water baptism.

 

[Eleanor]

Fixed it for you by the boldface above.

Their baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 (cf. 11:16) demonstrates they were saved before their water baptism.

"circumcision. . .of the heart, by the Spirit - the baptism with the Holy Spirit." (post #19)

So the new birth does not take place because of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as you stated in post #39.
Rather, baptism of the Holy Spirit demonstrates they were already born again (post #41).

And the "circumcision of the heart by the Spirit" is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as you explained/demonstrated in post #19.
Rather it is the new birth (post #41).

And that being the case, Col 2:11-12 does not refer to baptism of the Holy Spirit, in its reference to circumcision and baptism, rather
it refers to circumcision and water baptism in its presentation of cutting off the "sinful nature" (v.11) in circumcision and crucifying the "body of sin" in water baptism (Ro 6:6), not baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So rather than you Biblically demonstrating in Col 2:11-12 my Biblical error in water baptism, I have instead Biblically demonsrated your Biblical error in baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Fred]

"circumcision. . .of the heart, by the Spirit - the baptism with the Holy Spirit." (post #19)

Correct.

So the new birth does not take place because of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as you stated in post #39.
Rather, baptism of the Holy Spirit demonstrates they were already born again (post #41).

I'm not going to quibble about the EXACT moment.
Thing is, if one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit they are part of the NT Church.

And the "circumcision of the heart by the Spirit" is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as you explained/demonstrated in post #19.

False.

Rather it is the new birth (post #41).

Both.

And that being the case, Col 2:11-12 does not refer to baptism of the Holy Spirit,

None of the evidence I presented refutes that it is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

in its reference to circumcision and baptism, rather
it refers to circumcision and water baptism

False, because the Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved before their water baptism.

 

[Eleanor]

Correct.
I'm not going to quibble about the EXACT moment.
Thing is, if one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit they are part of the NT Church.
False.

Both.

Please Biblically demonstrate that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is regeneration, when it occurs after faith in Acts.

None of the evidence I presented refutes that it is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Precisely. . .

False, because the Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved before their water baptism.

Irrelevant, for water baptism does not save.

They were saved by the new birth, the circumcision of their Gentile hearts.

 

[Fred]

They were saved by the new birth, the circumcision of their Gentile hearts.

Which takes place when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eleanor]

Which takes place when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Please Biblically demonstrate that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is regeneration (when it occurs after faith in Acts).

 

[Fred]

Please Biblically demonstrate that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is regeneration (when it occurs after faith in Acts).

Holy Spirit baptism is how God saves us (Titus 3:5-7).

 

[Eleanor]

Holy Spirit baptism is how God saves us (Titus 3:5-7).

Tit 3:5-7 refers to the renewal (rebirth) of the Holy Spirit before faith, not to the baptism of the Holy Spirit received in Acts after faith.
Renewal of the Holy Spirit (rebirth) is not baptism of the Holy Spirit (special manifestation to prove the gospel).

 

[Fred]

Tit 3:5-7 refers to the renewal (rebirth) of the Holy Spirit before faith, not to the baptism of the Holy Spirit received in Acts after faith.

False.

To have the Holy Spirit poured out on a person (Acts 10:45) means the same thing as being baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16).

The fact that all who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit poured (Titus 3:6) on them means the same thing as them being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[civic]

I think the case with the Gentiles which uses the expression, "you and your household" demonstrates babies were not included.

If one were to go step by step with this....

1. Reference is made to the household.
Acts 11:13-14
(13) And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here;
(14) and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and your household.'

2. Only those who have received the Holy Spirit of this household were water baptized.
Acts 10:47-48
(47) Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?
(48) And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

3. In order for the Holy Spirit to be received by those of this household one had to:
(a) hear the gospel
(b) believe (the gospel)
Acts 15:7-8
(7) After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
(8) And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us.

Infants are incapable of hearing the gospel in order to believe.
Therefore, infants are not included of the household that was water baptized.

Amen

 

[Eleanor]

False.

To have the Holy Spirit poured out on a person (Acts 10:45) means the same thing as being baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16).

The fact that all who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit poured (Titus 3:6) on them means the same thing as them being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

The gift of (from) the Holy Spirit in Ac 10:45 is tongues, as the result of their new birth (renewal), it occurring with their renewal (new birth), as a manifestation of the proof of the gospel.

The apostles had likewise received this special manifestation and empowering on Pentecost, but that was not their rebirth, which was before his ascension, when he breathed new life of rebirth into them, just as he had breathed life into man at creation (Jn 20:21-22).

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not the new birth.

 

[Fred]

The gift of (from) the Holy Spirit in Ac 10:45 is tongues,

The gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45 is the Holy Spirit.


1. BDAG (3rd Edition): receive the Spirit as a gift Ac. 2:38; cp. 10:45 (dōrea, page 266).
2. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (EDNT): The usage of dōrea in the NT is concentrated on the gracious gift which has already been given by God, namely, Christ (John 4:10), the Spirit (Acts 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17), or "righteousness" (Rom. 5:15, 17) (1:364, dōrea, G. Schneider).
3. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): In Ac. the Spirit is called the dōrea of God in 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17 (2:167, dōrea, Buchsel).
4. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: with an epexegetical gen. of the thing given, the Holy Ghost, Ac 2:38, 10:45 (dōrea, page 161).
5. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: In Acts 2:38 "the gift of the Holy Ghost", the clause is epexegetical, the gift being the Holy Ghost Himself; cf. 10:45; 11:17 (Gift - dōrea, page 477)
6. A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament: gen. of that in which the gift consists; Acts 2:38 and 10:45 (dōrea, page 196).

 

[Eleanor]

The gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45 is the Holy Spirit.

It is clearly stated to be tongues in vv. 45-46.

 

[Fred]

It is clearly stated to be tongues in vv. 45-46.

No, it doesn't.

That they had the Holy Spirit allowed them to have the gift of tongues.

Nowhere does the NT claim tongues were poured out, but it does teach (several times) that the Holy Spirit is poured out (Acts 2:17-18, 33; 10:45; Titus 3:6).

 

[Eleanor]

No, it doesn't.

That they had the Holy Spirit allowed them to have the gift of tongues.

Nowhere does the NT claim tongues were poured out, but it does teach (several times) that the Holy Spirit is poured out (Acts 2:17-18, 33; 10:45; Titus 3:6).

My point is:

1) Both the Holy Spirit (Ac 1:4) and tongues (interpretation, prophecy, knowledge, wisdom, faith, powers, healing) are gifts,
not that they are both "poured out."

2) They do not necessarily occur together, as they did not in Ac 8:15-17.
The Holy Spirit is sometimes given without the gift of tongues, but the gift of tongues is never given without the gift of the Holy Spirit, it is never given to the unregenerated.

3) Likewise, baptism and the Holy Spirit do not necessarily occur together, as they did not in Ac 8:15-17, above.
The Holy Spirit is sometimes given with baptism (Ac 10:14, 19:5-6).

4) The "gift of the Holy Spirit" in Acts does not refer to the new birth, for it is given only to believers who, by definition (Jn 3:3-5), are already born again. It refers to a special manifestation of the Holy Spirit as testimony to the authenticity of the gospel.

 

[Reformedguy]

Colossians 2:11-12
(11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
(12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The grammatical construction is clear. The context in Col is "in Christ we have all things," the superiority of the NC.

Starting with the qualifying phrase of vv. 11-12, in v. 11: "having been buried with him in baptism is expressly Ro 6:4, which is water baptism.
Continuing with v. 11, the circumcision made without hands (the new birth, the circumcision of the heart),
the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh is expressly Ro 6:6, which is water baptism.

I have Biblically demonstarted that Col 2:11-12 parallels circumcision with water baptism.

Now you must Biblically demonstrate, not just assert, the error of my demonstration.
[/QUOTE]

 

[donadams]

Infant Baptism is biblical!

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Promise is to you’re children! Vs 39

This promise made in ez 36
A promise from God is a sacred oath, and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say adults only or except infants!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness.

(It does not say adults only or except infants!)
(Scripture does not say anywhere “do not baptized infants”)

Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament of the new covenant for all men. Matt 28:19 Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (It does not say except infants!) (but it does say “all”)!

Lk 1:10-11 all people including infants

Thee faith is required for adult baptism.
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

If it’s not possible (as in the case of infants) it’s not required.

But the promise of the parents to raise and educate the child in the faith is required, then the child is confirmed in thee faith at the age of reason.

Repentance is required for adult baptism. Acts 2:38

If there is no personal sin to repent of (as in the case of infants) then it’s not required.

For two thousand years the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always baptized infants!

Acts 1:8
Witness of Augustine!

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

“The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (ibid., 2:27:43).

“Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted” (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]).

“This is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism, which is celebrated among us: all who attain to this grace die thereby to sin—as he himself [Jesus] is said to have died to sin because he died in the flesh (that is, ‘in the likeness of sin’)—and they are thereby alive by being reborn in the baptismal font, just as he rose again from the sepulcher. This is the case no matter what the age of the body. For whether it be a newborn infant or a decrepit old man—since no one should be barred from baptism—just so, there is no one who does not die to sin in baptism. Infants die to original sin only; adults, to all those sins which they have added, through their evil living, to the burden they brought with them at birth” (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love 13[41] [A.D. 421]).

 

[Reformedguy]

Infant Baptism is biblical!

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Promise is to you’re children! Vs 39

This promise made in ez 36
A promise from God is a sacred oath, and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say adults only or except infants!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness.

(It does not say adults only or except infants!)
(Scripture does not say anywhere “do not baptized infants”)

Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament of the new covenant for all men. Matt 28:19 Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (It does not say except infants!) (but it does say “all”)!

Lk 1:10-11 all people including infants

Thee faith is required for adult baptism.
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

If it’s not possible (as in the case of infants) it’s not required.

But the promise of the parents to raise and educate the child in the faith is required, then the child is confirmed in thee faith at the age of reason.

Repentance is required for adult baptism. Acts 2:38

If there is no personal sin to repent of (as in the case of infants) then it’s not required.

For two thousand years the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always baptized infants!

Acts 1:8
Witness of Augustine!

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

“The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (ibid., 2:27:43).

“Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted” (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]).

“This is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism, which is celebrated among us: all who attain to this grace die thereby to sin—as he himself [Jesus] is said to have died to sin because he died in the flesh (that is, ‘in the likeness of sin’)—and they are thereby alive by being reborn in the baptismal font, just as he rose again from the sepulcher. This is the case no matter what the age of the body. For whether it be a newborn infant or a decrepit old man—since no one should be barred from baptism—just so, there is no one who does not die to sin in baptism. Infants die to original sin only; adults, to all those sins which they have added, through their evil living, to the burden they brought with them at birth” (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love 13[41] [A.D. 421]).

Amen! Going to my first grand kids baptism this weekend. God is good!

 

[Deleted member 5]

Infant Baptism is biblical!

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Promise is to you’re children! Vs 39

Oh, so the infants believed and repented. Mmm K.

 

[DJT_47]

I believe children are just as much part of God's family as adults and should be brought up as such.
Baptism is a sign of the new covenant, just like circumcision was in the old covenant. And just like infants were circumcised in the OT, so I believe it is right to baptise children of believing parents.

We are told in the NT:

“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” - Acts 2:38-39

In my denomination (Anglican) we have a practice of confirmation where those who were baptised as infants/children and have now come of age (usually around 16 years old or so) will (if they choose to do so) publicly confess their faith and take upon themselves the baptismal promises made by their parents and godparents on their behalf.

Children are without sin and also cannot comply with scriptural guidelines and requirements of baptism. You must 1st hear and believe the word, confess your belief, repent, and finally, be immersed in water, baptized, for the remission of sins. This is NOT possible for infants or young children to do.