Baptism beliefs

[Eleanor]

Colossians 2:11-12
(11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
(12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

All who have undergone this baptism have been circumcised. Reference is to the spiritual aspect of each. There is an allusion to literal circumcision as well as to literal water baptism, but not a reference to them.

"Circumcised" and "baptism" are not allusions, they are direct references.

He uses both circumcision and baptism as symbols for putting off the sinful nature, for dying to sin, based on cutting off the flesh (sin) and Jesus' dying on the cross.

Paul uses "flesh" to mean the "sinful nature."
He uses "flesh cut off" in circumcision as a symbol for putting off the old nature (Col 2:11),
corresponding to the symbol of "sin cut off" in baptism (Ro 6:6):

circumcision - a cutting off of the physical flesh (flesh = sin)
baptism - body of sin done away with (on the cross) (Ro 6:1-6), v.6.

"The circumcision Paul speaks of "is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit" - the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Since Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were already given the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-45) means they were worshiping in the Spirit.
Acts 10:46
For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.
Thus, before their water baptism they were already members of the circumcision (i.e., Christians).
Philippians 3:3
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.

The analogy here includes "cutting off" the sinful nature and its "death" by the cross, making it more analogous to dying to sin as Christ died for sin, than to the "true circumcision worshipping in the Spirit."

 

[Fred]

"Circumcised" and "baptism" are not allusions, they are direct references.

It doesn't refer to physical circumcision. An allusion to it, yes but not a reference to it.

The same with baptism. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is being referred to.

He uses both circumcision and baptism as symbols for putting off the sinful nature, for dying to sin, based on cutting off the flesh (sin) and Jesus' death on the cross.

Paul uses "flesh" to mean the "sinful nature."
He uses "flesh cut off" in circumcision as a symbol for putting off the old nature (Col 2:11),
corresponding to the symbol of "sin cut off" in baptism (Ro 6:6):

Another example of the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:3)

circumcision - a cutting off of the physical flesh (flesh = sin)
baptism - body of sin done away with (on the cross) (Ro 6:1-6), v.6.

The analogy here includes "cutting off" the sinful nature and its "death" by the cross, making it more analogous to dying to sin as Christ died for sin, than to the "true circumcision worshipping in the Spirit."

Which took place with the Gentiles before their water baptism (Acts 10:46).

 

[Reformedguy]

It goes against what is taught from the Book of Acts.
Thus, it is not a parallel sign.
Females were no circumcised in the OC. That leaves out more or less half the population.

Females were not circumcised but now there is neither male nor female as Paul says and women now take the covenant sign.

 

[Reformedguy]

Children are a part of the visible church and the covenant community, and, thus, should be baptized.

It took me awhile to get to this point since there’s no direct command to baptize infants, but I now see that it’s the logical conclusion to covenant theology and what the overall doctrine of the scriptures teach.

As I’ve read before (can’t seem to find the source or direct quote-I think it’s from Matthew McMahon on puritan board), infant baptism is the the last 5 minutes of a long discussion on the overall doctrine of covenant theology.

Good post.

 

[Carbon]

2. Only those who have received the Holy Spirit of this household were water baptized.
Acts 10:47-48
(47) Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?
(48) And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Imo I don’t think this is a good support for proof of credobaptism. It is a great support for Gentile believers to be baptized. According to context.

 

[Fred]

Imo I don’t think this is a good support for proof of credobaptism.

Why?

 

[Eleanor]

Colossians 2:11-12
(11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
(12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.[/quote]

It doesn't refer to physical circumcision. An allusion to it, yes but not a reference to it.
The same with baptism. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is being referred to.
Another example of the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:3)
Which took place with the Gentiles before their water baptism (Acts 10:46).

The grammatical construction is clear. The context in Col is "in Christ we have all things," the superiority of the NC.

Starting with the qualifying phrase of vv. 11-12, in v. 11: "having been buried with him in baptism is expressly Ro 6:4, which is water baptism.
Continuing with v. 11, the circumcision made without hands (the new birth, the circumcision of the heart),
the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh is expressly Ro 6:6, which is water baptism.

I have Biblically demonstarted that Col 2:11-12 parallels circumcision with water baptism.

Now you must Biblically demonstrate, not just assert, the error of my demonstration.

 

[Fred]

Colossians 2:11-12
(11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
(12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The grammatical construction is clear. The context in Col is "in Christ we have all things," the superiority of the NC.

Starting with the qualifying phrase of vv. 11-12, in v. 11: "having been buried with him in baptism is expressly Ro 6:4, which is water baptism.



Proof?

 

[Eleanor]

Colossians 2:11-12
(11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
(12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The grammatical construction is clear. The context in Col is "in Christ we have all things," the superiority of the NC.

Starting with the qualifying phrase of vv. 11-12, in v. 11: "having been buried with him in baptism is expressly Ro 6:4, which is water baptism.
Continuing with v. 11, the circumcision made without hands (the new birth, the circumcision of the heart),
the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh is expressly Ro 6:6, which is water baptism.

I have Biblically demonstarted that Col 2:11-12 parallels circumcision with water baptism.

Now you must Biblically demonstrate, not just assert, the error of my demonstration.

The grammatical construction is clear. The context in Col is "in Christ we have all things," the superiority of the NC.

Starting with the qualifying phrase of vv. 11-12, in v. 11: "having been buried with him in baptism is expressly Ro 6:4, which is water baptism.

Proof?

Proof is given above, Ro 6:4.

 

[Fred]

The grammatical construction is clear. The context in Col is "in Christ we have all things," the superiority of the NC.

Starting with the qualifying phrase of vv. 11-12, in v. 11: "having been buried with him in baptism is expressly Ro 6:4, which is water baptism.
Continuing with v. 11, the circumcision made without hands (the new birth, the circumcision of the heart),
the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh is expressly Ro 6:6, which is water baptism.

I have Biblically demonstarted that Col 2:11-12 parallels circumcision with water baptism.

Now you must Biblically demonstrate, not just assert, the error of my demonstration.

Proof is given above, Ro 6:4.

I have already demonstrated the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the primary emphasis in Colossians 2 in post 19.

The same holds true concerning Romans 6.

Romans 6:3-6
(3) Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
(4) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
(6) knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin.

All who have undergone being "baptized into Christ Jesus" (v. 3) are able to "walk in newness of life" (v. 4)

To "walk in newness of life" corresponds with serving in newness of the Spirit (7:6)
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Since Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were already given the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-45) means they were serving/worshiping God in newness of the Spirit.
Acts 10:46
For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.

Thus, before their water baptism they were already members of the circumcision (i.e., Christians) in that they worshiped in the Spirit.
Philippians 3:3
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.


Furthermore, a person is no longer "a slave to sin" (Romans 6:6) when the spirit of slavery (Romans 8:15) is cancelled. This takes place when they have received the Spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15)
Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

Acts 10:47-48
(47) “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
(48) And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him received the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47, which proves they no longer possessed the spirit of slavery and were not slaves to sin before their water baptism. When these Gentiles received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47) means the same thing as them being baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16).

Thus, Romans 6:3 refers to being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eleanor]

I have already demonstrated the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the primary emphasis in Colossians 2.

Then you should have no problem, other than overcoming Ro 6:4-6, in demonstrating the Biblical error in my demonstration.

 

[Fred]

Then you should have no problem demonstrating the Biblical error of my demonstration.

Yes, it does.
The focus is on the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, it does.
The focus is on the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Assertion of my Biblical error, without Biblical demonstration of that assertion, is assertion without Biblical merit.

 

[Fred]

Assertion of my Biblical error, without Biblical demonstration of that assertion, is assertion without Biblical merit.

Your focus is on the what is being alluded to - water baptism
While Holy Spirit baptism is the primary referent.

 

[Carbon]

Why?

I can explain more later brother.

 

[Eleanor]

Your focus is on the what is being alluded to - water baptism
While Holy Spirit baptism is the primary referent.

Assertion of my Biblical error, without Biblical demonstration of that assertion, is assertion without Biblical merit.

 

[Fred]

Assertion of my Biblical error, without Biblical demonstration of that assertion, is assertion without Biblical merit.

It is error because you are ignoring the fact that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the primary reference.

 

[Eleanor]

Colossians 2:11-12
(11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
(12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

All who have undergone this baptism have been circumcised. Reference is to the spiritual aspect of each. There is an allusion to literal circumcision as well as to literal water baptism, but not a reference to them.

The circumcision Paul speaks of "is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit" - the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

That circumcision by the Spirit is the new birth, the circumcision of the heart.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts is not the new birth, they already believe there, already have a new heart.
Baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts is a sign, a testimony to the truth of the gospel.

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

And that circumcision is the new birth, a new heart, not baptism by the Holy Spirit.

Since Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were already given the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-45) means they were worshiping in the Spirit.
Acts 10:46
For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.
Thus, before their water baptism they were already members of the circumcision (i.e., Christians).

They were not placed in the body of God's people until water baptism.

Philippians 3:3
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.

True circumcision being the new birth, a new heart.

 

[Fred]

That circumcision by the Spirit is the new birth, the new heart.

Which takes place because of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eleanor]

Which takes place because of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Now we're down to it; i.e., your notion that the new birth is by baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Those in Acts believed before they were baptized, which baptism you say is the new birth.
So they believed in Jesus Christ before they were born again?

Not according to Jn 3:3-8, where you can't even see the kingdom of God without the new birth, much less apprehend and embrace it.
Nor according to 1 Co 2:14, where the man without the Spirit (unregenerate) cannot understand the things of God and sees them as foolishness.
Not according to Ro 8:7-8, where the unregenerate are hostile to God.