Baptism unto judgment question.

[Dave]

Apart from Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit unto salvation, known as the baptism with the Holy Spirit, there is another baptism to consider, since unbelievers are baptized unto judgement (Matthew 3:10-12). Jesus was baptized into judgment for us, for our sin.

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!

This next passage....John, and James and the sons of Zebedee cannot be baptized unto judgment.

To James and John, the sons of Zebedee.

Mark 10: 38-39 But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able." So Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized;

What did Jesus mean by that claim? Was He speaking of physical death only?

James was killed.

Acts 12:1-2 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

According to Tertullian (tradition), John was thrown into boiling oil in Rome but miraculously survived. He was eventually banished to the island of Patmos where he wrote the book of Revelation. Tradition says that he was later released from exile and later died as an old man sometime after AD 98.

I don't know about the sons of Zebedee.

What gives? Mathew 10:38-39. What did Jesus mean when He said "You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized;"?

Dave

 

[Mr GLee]

I would offer.

In both Luke 9 and Mark 9 leading to chapter10:38-39 .

After revealing a series of parables purposely hiding the unseen spiritual gospel understanding in parables from the apostles.

Christ Teaching the apostles "how" to walk by faith the power of Christ as it is written (sola scriptura)

The last time of many parables , Christs rebuked them and informed, they knew not what manner of spirit they were of (unredeemed, natural man ) no faith as power that could please the Holy Father

One of the Jews that was hoping their flesh could profit for something bowed down to the Son of man Jesus as if he was the invisible Holy Father that was working with Jesus the Son of man. Calling him Good Master not acknowledging the Father who worked within Jesus empower Jesus to do His mighty will

Jesus the Son of man made it clear. God is not a Jewish man flesh and blood

Mark 10:17-18 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

James and John still not understnding the parable called Jesus the Son of man Master just like the one previously bowing down worshipping dying flesh as the Master

Mark 10:35-41;And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?;And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:;But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

James and John did not receive the hidden understanding of the parables they did learn eventually how to rightly divide the parables.

James and John did then receive with the baptism that Jesus the Son of man was baptized

In that way we all suffer in persecution of Christ . Satan having no understnding of parables simply murder mankind.

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

 

[David Lamb]

Apart from Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit unto salvation, known as the baptism with the Holy Spirit, there is another baptism to consider, since unbelievers are baptized unto judgement (Matthew 3:10-12).

Sorry, but Matthew 3:10-12 doesn't seem to mention baptism unto judgement - the verses say:

“"And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."” (Mt 3:10-12 NKJV)

I see there water baptism and baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, but no mention of baptism unto judgement.

 

[Mr GLee]

Hi Dave

I would offer.

The Baptism of fire or called the letter of the law "death" as it is written. .thou shall not, or you are dead, just as if never born.

The word of God the faithful power of both life and death. Many acknowledge gospel life but not death.

From my experience many misunderstand the law according to the letter as it is written (sola scriptura) the very instrument of Death or dying suffering persecution

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Revelation 20:13-15;And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (suffering)delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.And death and hell (suffering) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.;And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Fred]

Mathew 10:38-39. What did Jesus mean when He said "You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized;"?

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): the cup is understood as the cup of suffering, the baptism as the baptism of death (Matt. 20:22; Mk. 10:38) (2:276, Hunger, G. Braumann).

 

[Dave]

Sorry, but Matthew 3:10-12 doesn't seem to mention baptism unto judgement - the verses say:

“"And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."” (Mt 3:10-12 NKJV)

I see there water baptism and baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, but no mention of baptism unto judgement.

Hi David

I guess it comes down to what one believes "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." means

Which seems to be expounded on right after in that same passage.

"His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."”

It's water baptism that I don't see. Are you Catholic?

Dave

 

[Dave]

Mr. Glee

Interesting. While I was pondering what you wrote, I came across something while going through some materials and now I wonder if it may apply to what you were saying. Fred, this would tie into what you were saying also.

Anyone who has any thoughts on this please let me know what you think.

We identify with Christ's death, and then His resurrection, as a result of our spiritual union with Him, which is the result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. this is how we are born again, being raised up with Him. Focusing on the death that we die in Him, I wonder if this may have been the baptism that Jesus was speaking of when He said "You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized;"?

In other words, with Jesus, it's judgment on our behalf, but with us, we identify with Him in that judgment when we die with Him, and then, of course, we are then raised up with Him. Like in this passage below...

Romans 6:3-7 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Thoughts?

 

[Fred]

We identify with Christ's death, and then His resurrection, as a result of our spiritual union with Him, which is the result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. this is how we are born again, being raised up with Him. Focusing on the death that we die in Him, I wonder if this may have been the baptism that Jesus was speaking of when He said "You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized;"?

In other words, with Jesus, it's judgment on our behalf, but with us, we identify with Him in that judgment when we die with Him, and then, of course, we are then raised up with Him.

Yes, you are correct. The baptism with the Holy Spirit ("baptism into His death") which Romans 6:4 is in reference to ties into what Jesus stated in Mark 10.



The baptism with the Holy Spirit is being referred to in Romans 6:3-4.
To walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4) corresponds with serving in newness of the Spirit (Romans 7:6).

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.



Romans 6:3-6
(3) Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
(4) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
(6) knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin.

All who have undergone being "baptized into Christ Jesus" (v. 3) are able to:
"walk in newness of life" (v. 4) = "serve in the newness of the Spirit" (Romans 7:6).

Furthermore, a person is no longer "a slave to sin" (Romans 6:6) when the spirit of slavery (Romans 8:15) is cancelled. This took place when Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him received the Spirit of adoption (Acts 10:47; Romans 8:15), which refers to the same thing as them being baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16; cf. Acts 1:5).
Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

 

[David Lamb]

Hi David

I guess it comes down to what one believes "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." means

Which seems to be expounded on right after in that same passage.

"His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."”

It's water baptism that I don't see. Are you Catholic?

Dave

You don't see water baptism in Matthew 3:10-12? But in those verses we read John the Baptist saying, "I indeed baptize you with water."

To answer your question, no, I am certainly not a Roman Catholic; I'm a Baptist.

 

[Dave]

You don't see water baptism in Matthew 3:10-12? But in those verses we read John the Baptist saying, "I indeed baptize you with water."

To answer your question, no, I am certainly not a Roman Catholic; I'm a Baptist.

Hi David

The water baptism "I indeed baptize you with water." is separated from the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire with a "but". Then we are told that there is one baptizer (He) and the agents of His baptism will be the "Holy Spirit and fire", no water is mentioned. Even further those two by "He" are qualified with a description of each, He will.... gather His wheat into the barn (Holy Spirit baptism); *but* He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable (fire baptism, judgment). Notice that even these two baptisms are separated with a 'but'. Water baptism publicly identifies us with the one whose name we are symbolically baptized into.

I think I asked you if you were a Catholic before. I'm getting old and my memory isn't so sharp any more. But after I wrote that post, I was getting deja vu vibes. If so, sorry about that.

Dave

 

[David Lamb]

Hi David

The water baptism "I indeed baptize you with water." is separated from the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire with a "but". Then we are told that there is one baptizer (He) and the agents of His baptism will be the "Holy Spirit and fire", no water is mentioned. Even further those two by "He" are qualified with a description of each, He will.... gather His wheat into the barn (Holy Spirit baptism); *but* He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable (fire baptism, judgment). Notice that even these two baptisms are separated with a 'but'. Water baptism publicly identifies us with the one whose name we are symbolically baptized into.

I see, so you didn't mean that you don't see water baptism at all in that verse, but that is separated from baptism in the Spirfit and with fire? If so, I agree with that. Water baptism still has a place, though. We read of Philip baptising the Ethiopian in water. In the household of Cornelius, Peter said:

“"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"” (Ac 10:47 NKJV)

I think I asked you if you were a Catholic before. I'm getting old and my memory isn't so sharp any more. But after I wrote that post, I was getting deja vu vibes. If so, sorry about that.

Dave

Don't worry about that - it is difficult to remember all the details of every poster here!

 

[Mr GLee]

Hi David

The water baptism "I indeed baptize you with water." is separated from the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire with a "but". Then we are told that there is one baptizer (He) and the agents of His baptism will be the "Holy Spirit and fire", no water is mentioned. Even further those two by "He" are qualified with a description of each, He will.... gather His wheat into the barn (Holy Spirit baptism); *but* He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable (fire baptism, judgment). Notice that even these two baptisms are separated with a 'but'. Water baptism publicly identifies us with the one whose name we are symbolically baptized into.

I think I asked you if you were a Catholic before. I'm getting old and my memory isn't so sharp any more. But after I wrote that post, I was getting deja vu vibes. If so, sorry about that.

Dave

It would be like going through the fiery trial of darkness and light and not consumed.

Exodus 13:21And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Exodus 14:2He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

Exodus 14:27And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.

 

[Dave]

I see, so you didn't mean that you don't see water baptism at all in that verse, but that is separated from baptism in the Spirfit and with fire? If so, I agree with that. Water baptism still has a place, though. We read of Philip baptizing the Ethiopian in water. In the household of Cornelius, Peter said:

Hi David.

Yes, my point was that the two baptisms in question did not include water baptism.

“"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"” (Ac 10:47 NKJV)

OK, but for the record, they were water baptized after they were Spirit baptized.

Don't worry about that - it is difficult to remember all the details of every poster here!

Dave

 

[Eleanor]

Sorry, but Matthew 3:10-12 doesn't seem to mention baptism unto judgement - the verses say:

“"And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."” (Mt 3:10-12 NKJV)

I see there water baptism and baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire, but no mention of baptism unto judgement.

I see Holy Spirit and fire at Pentecost.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I see Holy Spirit and fire at Pentecost.

The below verse is the one I think helps explain as well:

Malachi 3:2-3 "But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord".

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

not sure if it helps

John said he would baptize with the spirit and with fire.

the fire he says shall never be quenched.

I can only think of one eternal fire and that is the fire of hell

Is John not saying Jesus will baptize everyone. we better chose the right one?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I see Holy Spirit and fire at Pentecost.

where is the fire at at pentecost. what was jesus immersing in fire

 

[Dave]

Hey E

I think fire is qualified by the same passage. In this instance in Luke 3:16-17, and in the parallel passage of Matt. 3:11-12 mentioned in the OP.

Luke 3:16-17 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire."

Dave

 

[makesends]

Mr. Glee

Interesting. While I was pondering what you wrote, I came across something while going through some materials and now I wonder if it may apply to what you were saying. Fred, this would tie into what you were saying also.

Anyone who has any thoughts on this please let me know what you think.

We identify with Christ's death, and then His resurrection, as a result of our spiritual union with Him, which is the result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. this is how we are born again, being raised up with Him. Focusing on the death that we die in Him, I wonder if this may have been the baptism that Jesus was speaking of when He said "You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized;"?

In other words, with Jesus, it's judgment on our behalf, but with us, we identify with Him in that judgment when we die with Him, and then, of course, we are then raised up with Him. Like in this passage below...

Romans 6:3-7 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Thoughts?

Hello, Dave. Not everyone reads every post. When you wish to address someone, (or, by common courtesy, when you speak of someone) please link them so that they are alerted to your reference of them, by putting @ followed immediately by their handle, thus: "@Mr G...", but leaving a space immediately before and immediately after. As you begin to type it, there should be a pop-up of their name show up below where you are typing; click on it and it will link the name, thus: @Mr GLee and @Fred .

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Hey E

I think fire is qualified by the same passage. In this instance in Luke 3:16-17, and in the parallel passage of Matt. 3:11-12 mentioned in the OP.

Luke 3:16-17 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire."

Dave

Yes.

I see the barn as representing heaven
The wheat as representing believers
the chaff as representing unbelievers
and the fire as representing Hell

Jesus came to separate the lost from the found