Are you Arminian, Calvinist, or other?

[Arial]

I mentioned to him elsewhere, I will have a Dialectic Debate with him if he wants to. Otherwise, we're only giving our Stance...

People think they are Debating; but they're not...


Dialectic (Greek: διαλεκτική, dialektikḗ; related to dialogue; German: Dialektik), also known as the dialectical method, is a discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject but wishing to establish the truth through reasoned argumentation. Dialectic resembles debate, but the concept excludes subjective elements such as emotional appeal and the modern pejorative sense of rhetoric

100% agree. It is quite maddening and frustrating.

 

[justbyfaith]

In both Arminianism and Calvinism, the three Soils are Reprobate; but we differ on why they are Reprobate. A Traditionalist will eventually agree the Soils are Reprobate; Oneness will also eventually agree that the Rocky and Weedy Soils are given over to their Reprobate Minds...

Start with getting him to agree to this; then the rest of the things you want him to agree with will follow. Or else he will remain in Cognitive Dissonance and prefer the Lie...

@civic

In each case of soil type #2 and #3, they are living plants and therefore they are not reprobate (at least, for all practical purposes, as you look at them from the outside; or even from the inside, as one who believes he is eternally secure when in all actuality he will fall away or be choked out with the pleasures of this life) until it is shown that they are reprobate by virtue of the fact that they fall away or else are drawn away from faith in Christ by the pleasure that is offered to them by this world.

They are clearly not the elect; because they are a type of ground that cannot and will not sustain spiritual life permanently;

However, they are for all practical purposes what we might call "saved" (as we look at them in the church today, they are the parishioners who sit in the pews and who we greet every Sunday); since they are living plants for the time being and because they do exhibit spiritual life (while the difference with them is that they cannot bear fruit).

Only soil type #4 is the elect; and only soil type #4 can adequately lay hold of such promises as John 5:24 and John 10:27-30.

You can be certain that you are soil type #4 the moment you begin to bear real fruit (Galatians 5:22-23); because soil types #2 and #3, while they do exhibit spiritual life, cannot bear fruit.

The fact that they exhibit spiritual life means that, for all practical purposes, they are "saved" according to Acts 10:43; for, for example, soil type #2 "believes for a while" and therefore can lay hold of the forgiveness afforded by that promise. However, because "in time of trial or temptation they fall away", they are not forgiven eternally and therefore are not of the elect; they are forgiven only for a season in their lives.

I will not believe that a person who believes is not forgiven through their faith simply because they will not continue in that faith. Acts 10:43 is clear that believing procures forgiveness.

But if they don't persevere, the forgiveness that they enjoy will last only for a season.

That they have actual forgiveness is evident in the fact that they "receive the word with joy". The joy that they experience is the result of being forgiven.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think the second scenario has already been established. When all posts were responded to by indisputable logic, I believe that was seen. I mean how can one dispute such straightforward logic as the seed doesn't make the soil good. And since there is no way to do that in a huff they simply indicted those who disagree with him and continued with the illogic.

But you never know. Maybe they will ponder it. Could be an eye opening moment.

As I believe @ReverendRV stated, this conversation is dialectic.

You give your understanding that it is not a living plant in the soil that means there is spiritual life but rather that the soil has been tilled, that means there is spiritual life in the soil.

This is wholly based on your opinion and has no scriptural basis.

What can be said is that soil having been tilled is what makes the type of ground, soil #4, and therefore of the elect.

However, soils type #2 and #3 do bear spiritual life and therefore, for all practical purposes, they are what we might call "saved" in the church today. They are parishioners that sit next to us in church and whom we greet every Sunday.

 

[Eleanor]

As I believe @ReverendRV stated, this conversation is dialectic.

You give your understanding that it is not a living plant in the soil that means there is spiritual life but rather that the soil has been tilled, that means there is spiritual life in the soil.

This is wholly based on your opinion and has no scriptural basis.

What can be said is that soil having been tilled is what makes the type of ground, soil #4, and therefore of the elect.

However, soils type #2 and #3 do bear spiritual life and therefore, for all practical purposes, they are what we might call "saved" in the church today. They are parishioners that sit next to us in church and whom we greet every Sunday.

 

[Eleanor]

As I believe @ReverendRV stated, this conversation is dialectic.

You give your understanding that it is not a living plant in the soil that means there is spiritual life but rather that the soil has been tilled, that means there is spiritual life in the soil.

This is wholly based on your opinion and has no scriptural basis.

What can be said is that soil having been tilled is what makes the type of ground, soil #4, and therefore of the elect.

However, soils type #2 and #3 do bear spiritual life and therefore, for all practical purposes, they are what we might call "saved" in the church today. They are parishioners that sit next to us in church and whom we greet every Sunday.

Soil #2 is counterfeit faith, soil #3 is pretender/carnal faith.
Neither saves, they are not true faith.
They were never saved in the first place.
Only true faith of soil #4 saves, and does not fall away.

 

[ReverendRV]

As I believe @ReverendRV stated, this conversation is dialectic.

You give your understanding that it is not a living plant in the soil that means there is spiritual life but rather that the soil has been tilled, that means there is spiritual life in the soil.

This is wholly based on your opinion and has no scriptural basis.

What can be said is that soil having been tilled is what makes the type of ground, soil #4, and therefore of the elect.

However, soils type #2 and #3 do bear spiritual life and therefore, for all practical purposes, they are what we might call "saved" in the church today. They are parishioners that sit next to us in church and whom we greet every Sunday.

The Conversation is not Dialectic. An attempt to Reason together to come to a Solution, is a Dialectic. Otherwise it's a Monologue...

 

[Arial]

You give your understanding that it is not a living plant in the soil that means there is spiritual life but rather that the soil has been tilled, that means there is spiritual life in the soil.

No it doesn't. You are taking the parable outside the realm of a parable. The living and thriving plant indicates the soil was good. It is an agricultural analogy. Good soil, well tilled by who? The farmer. The farmer prepares the soil to feed and maintain a healthy plant that will in time produce more seed. Now move the analogy into the kingdom of heaven that Jesus was talking about and you will find that the seed is the word of God. The gospel. Many hear the gospel and have different reactions to it, all on a superficial level until we come to the good soil. The soil is the heart of a person. It is God who tills the soil making it ready to receive the seed and produce a crop. The seed does not prepare the soil, the plant does not make the soil good. The soil makes the plant good and God is in charge of the soil.

This is wholly based on your opinion and has no scriptural basis.

It is based on scripture and the scripture as an analogy of something in the natural world is of necessity logical, otherwise it would not serve as an analogy or parable.

What can be said is that soil having been tilled is what makes the type of ground, soil #4, and therefore of the elect.

Right. So why are you insisting it says something else? If the good soil are the elect the other soils are not genuine faith, not genuine faith falling away from genuine faith. The elect are guaranteed salvation by the decree God, and He is the one who brings it about.

However, soils type #2 and #3 do bear spiritual life and therefore, for all practical purposes, they are what we might call "saved" in the church today. They are parishioners that sit next to us in church and whom we greet every Sunday.

That they sit beside us in church is entirely beside the point, and whether or not we think they are saved is also irrelevant. The weeds and tares grow alongside each other til the harvest. And if 2 and 3 bore spiritual life they would not have left that spiritual life. Such a thing would be impossible. Eternal life is eternal life. If it were lost it would not have been eternal.

 

[ReverendRV]

No it doesn't. You are taking the parable outside the realm of a parable. The living and thriving plant indicates the soil was good. It is an agricultural analogy. Good soil, well tilled by who? The farmer. The farmer prepares the soil to feed and maintain a healthy plant that will in time produce more seed. Now move the analogy into the kingdom of heaven that Jesus was talking about and you will find that the seed is the word of God. The gospel. Many hear the gospel and have different reactions to it, all on a superficial level until we come to the good soil. The soil is the heart of a person. It is God who tills the soil making it ready to receive the seed and produce a crop. The seed does not prepare the soil, the plant does not make the soil good. The soil makes the plant good and God is in charge of the soil.

It is based on scripture and the scripture as an analogy of something in the natural world is of necessity logical, otherwise it would not serve as an analogy or parable.

Right. So why are you insisting it says something else? If the good soil are the elect the other soils are not genuine faith, not genuine faith falling away from genuine faith. The elect are guaranteed salvation by the decree God, and He is the one who brings it about.

That they sit beside us in church is entirely beside the point, and whether or not we think they are saved is also irrelevant. The weeds and tares grow alongside each other til the harvest. And if 2 and 3 bore spiritual life they would not have left that spiritual life. Such a thing would be impossible. Eternal life is eternal life. If it were lost it would not have been eternal.

The Key to winning (not that this is your goal), is to point out this is the only explained Parable in the Bible. When he realizes what Jesus says is the person; he Loses...

I know you want to win a Soul; but sometimes you have to win the Argument first. Which Soil is his heart?

 

[justbyfaith]

Soil #2 is counterfeit faith, soil #3 is pretender/carnal faith.
Neither saves, they are not true faith.
They were never saved in the first place.
Only true faith of soil #4 saves, and does not fall away.

Soil types #2 and #3 produce living plants.

So, you are saying that a living plant does not mean that there is genuine faith / salvation.

I simply don't agree with you, there.

 

[justbyfaith]

No it doesn't. You are taking the parable outside the realm of a parable. The living and thriving plant indicates the soil was good. It is an agricultural analogy. Good soil, well tilled by who? The farmer. The farmer prepares the soil to feed and maintain a healthy plant that will in time produce more seed. Now move the analogy into the kingdom of heaven that Jesus was talking about and you will find that the seed is the word of God. The gospel. Many hear the gospel and have different reactions to it, all on a superficial level until we come to the good soil. The soil is the heart of a person. It is God who tills the soil making it ready to receive the seed and produce a crop. The seed does not prepare the soil, the plant does not make the soil good. The soil makes the plant good and God is in charge of the soil.

It is based on scripture and the scripture as an analogy of something in the natural world is of necessity logical, otherwise it would not serve as an analogy or parable.

Right. So why are you insisting it says something else? If the good soil are the elect the other soils are not genuine faith, not genuine faith falling away from genuine faith. The elect are guaranteed salvation by the decree God, and He is the one who brings it about.

That they sit beside us in church is entirely beside the point, and whether or not we think they are saved is also irrelevant. The weeds and tares grow alongside each other til the harvest. And if 2 and 3 bore spiritual life they would not have left that spiritual life. Such a thing would be impossible. Eternal life is eternal life. If it were lost it would not have been eternal.

As long as you understand that, since soil types #2 and #3 can be those who are sitting next to you in church, soil types #2 and #3 might even be you.

I still say that a living plant means salvation; because there is spiritual life that is exhibited.

Thus one can exhibit spiritual life and not be of the elect.

In order to be of the elect one must flourish and bear abundant fruit.

Heb 6:7, For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8, But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Heb 6:9, But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10, For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Heb 6:11, And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12, That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Key to winning (not that this is your goal), is to point out this is the only explained Parable in the Bible. When he realizes what Jesus says is the person; he Loses...

I know you want to win a Soul; but sometimes you have to win the Argument first. Which Soil is his heart?

Soil types #2 and #3 are persons who bear spiritual life and therefore are "saved" for all practical purposes. Just not of the elect.

Soil type #4 is also a person who is tilled ground and is not only "saved" (being soil that bears spiritual life) it is of the elect (since the life that is in it does not fizzle out as in the other two soil types).

 

[ReverendRV]

Soil types #2 and #3 are persons who bear spiritual life and therefore are "saved" for all practical purposes. Just not of the elect.

Soil type #4 is also a person who is tilled ground and is not only "saved" (being soil that bears spiritual life) it is of the elect (since the life that is in it does not fizzle out as in the other two soil types).

Who Tills the Good Soil? Who is the Farmer?

 

[justbyfaith]

Who Tills the Good Soil? Who is the Farmer?

The Father (John 15:1).

 

[ReverendRV]

The Father (John 15:1).

Did the Father Till the Rocky and Weedy Soils?

 

[justbyfaith]

Did the Father Till the Rocky and Weedy Soils?

No; but He did scatter seed into them.

 

[ReverendRV]

No; but He did scatter seed into them.

So the Weedy Soil has always been unregenerate, right?

 

[ReverendRV]

By the way, this discussion is a Dialectic...

 

[Eleanor]

Soil types #2 and #3 produce living plants.

So, you are saying that a living plant does not mean that there is genuine faith / salvation.

I simply don't agree with you, there.

The plants have no root. They are not complete.

 

[justbyfaith]

So the Weedy Soil has always been unregenerate, right?

Until it produced a living plant.

 

[justbyfaith]

The plants have no root. They are not complete.

In soil type #2, the plants have shallow roots (not no roots).

In soil type #3, they do indeed have deeper roots.