Eternal life, given or offered?

[Arial]

I gave my response to Red in Post #146. If there is something there you disagree with, feel free to respond.

No you didn't. You addressed one line that wasn't my post. Post 144 does not even have that one line. It was Red's line.

 

[JIM]

You can feminine and neuter all you want.It makes no difference whatsoever.

Only to those who do not understand.

I will say no more about it.

That's good.

 

[Red Baker]

How is faith a supernatural thing? As you acknowledged, to have faith in God is to believe in God. It is something that you do. Do you have supernatural powers?

Greetings Jim,

I'm only answering this post since you directed this post to me to answer~I'm not gaining up on you, I would never do that, that's not why I'm here.

Yes, faith which is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit, is a supernatural, produced not by the will of the flesh, but from the new man which has been created after the image of Jesus Christ. Still, I would agree to have faith in God is to believe in God. The power to do so, is freely given to God's elect., this faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But Jim, only those born of God can have faith.

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Do you have supernatural powers? I don't think so.

What does this have to to do with the truth that faith is the results of the new birth, not the cause thereof? Not one thing.

I know you keep saying that it is a gift from God, but it is not. The scriptures do not say that.

Jim, I believe God's word which clearly said that faith is given to us on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29​

“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;”
Jim, there it is, why are you disagreeing with Paul? This should concern you greatly.

Salvation is a gift, certainly, but faith is not.

Salvation from sin and condemnation is a free gift, yet it is impossible to separate that from a person's faith in God. You might as well try to separate that which constitutes a man being man, as you are trying to separate faith in God from salvation from sin and condemnation. Can you separate water from being a liquid under normal conditions, then you may separate faith from salvation.

Paul declared that to be so for Abraham: "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom 4:3). In short, that verse declares that Abraham was saved. To be counted for righteousness is to have the righteousness of God credited to him. Righteousness was imputed to Abraham. Abraham, because he believed in God, was declared to be righteous.

I have given you the meaning/sense of this phrase, and will do so once more.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.​

Jim, this is the most popular Bible quotation (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Gal 3:6; James 2:23).

The adverbial phrase, even as, means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen. Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Gen 15:6). This is precious and sweet, if we grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles!

The Judaizer false teachers could only offer some connection to Moses by circumcision.

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matt 3:9; John 8:33; Ex 3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Rom 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Rom 4:13-16; Gal 3:17).

Jim, did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time? Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation. The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Gen 12:1-4; Heb 11:8; Gen 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24). If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Gen 14:18-20)?

Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)!

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?

Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage? Abel, Enoch, and Noah were ignored, because they were not the “father” of Israel, though they proved their righteous character by their faith long before Abraham (Heb 11:4-7). God wrote Genesis 15:6 for the future use of Paul in showing the important role of faith to Jews trusting the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all!

 

[Carbon]

Calvinists, can you show me anywhere in the Bible where eternal life is given to you, personally? What is your assurance that you, personally, have been regenerated?

Sure. In quite a few places actually.

Also, if it wasn't, knowing how I am, especially before I was quickened I wouldn’t have trusted Jesus. Why would I give up all the things I loved, all the world had to offer my flesh.

 

[JIM]

Greetings Jim,

I'm only answering this post since you directed this post to me to answer~I'm not gaining up on you, I would never do that, that's not why I'm here.

Yes, faith which is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit, is a supernatural, produced not by the will of the flesh, but from the new man which has been created after the image of Jesus Christ. Still, I would agree to have faith in God is to believe in God. The power to do so, is freely given to God's elect., this faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But Jim, only those born of God can have faith.

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

It seems clear enough to me that receiving and believing is the prerequisite to be given the right or privilege to become sons of God. This is made even more apparent by the previous verse, verse 11, which says that "He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him". It was their choice to either reject or receive him. It is also apparent that receiving here means believing in Him.

What does this have to to do with the truth that faith is the results of the new birth, not the cause thereof? Not one thing.

Jim, I believe God's word which clearly said that faith is given to us on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29​

“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;”
Jim, there it is, why are you disagreeing with Paul? This should concern you greatly.

Salvation from sin and condemnation is a free gift, yet it is impossible to separate that from a person's faith in God. You might as well try to separate that which constitutes a man being man, as you are trying to separate faith in God from salvation from sin and condemnation. Can you separate water from being a liquid under normal conditions, then you may separate faith from salvation.

Why would you think that I would separate faith from salvation? I don't. In fact, quite the opposite. It thoroughly am convinced that faith is the basis upon which God has placed us in that select group that inherits eternal life. Yes it is a privilege to believe in Jesus Christ. And it is a privilege to also suffer for his sake. Paul has just described his own conflicting thoughts of that he would prefer to die and be with Christ but knows that his continuing to live will be best for his readers. Even in his own internal conflict, he knows that living and suffering here is very much a privilege.

I have given you the meaning/sense of this phrase, and will do so once more.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.​

Jim, this is the most popular Bible quotation (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Gal 3:6; James 2:23).

The adverbial phrase, even as, means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen. Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Gen 15:6). This is precious and sweet, if we grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles!

The Judaizer false teachers could only offer some connection to Moses by circumcision.

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matt 3:9; John 8:33; Ex 3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Rom 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Rom 4:13-16; Gal 3:17).

Jim, did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time? Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

Here again, it seems clear enough that faith, believing in God, is the prerequisite to God's justifying Abraham. It is the single reason for God's justifying, not only Abraham, but the Gentiles as well.

There is not rational way that you can deny what Paul is saying there in Galatians. Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Faith is the condition there set forth as the basis for being justified. Again, clearly faith, believing in God, is the prerequisite to being declared, reckoned, counted to the Gentiles, as well as to Abraham, as righteousness.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation. The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Why must you always change what Paul says and means when he recounts the case of Abraham. There is nothing in Galatians 3:6, or any of the other passages that Paul speaks about Abraham's faith in God, that says anything about evidence for righteousness. Abraham's faith is the basis upon which God justified Abraham.

Over and over again, the scriptures tell us that God justifies those who believe. Paul continues that specific point here in Galatians. He says just a few verses later, that "so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith" (Gal 3:14). The promised Spirit, being born again of the Spirit (John 3:3-8), is received through faith.

It should be plain as the nose on your face that receiving the Spirit through faith means that faith precedes receiving the Spirit.

It is the believer that receives the promised Spirit; it is the believer that is regenerated! ! !

 

[Red Baker]

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

It seems clear enough to me that receiving and believing is the prerequisite to be given the right or privilege to become sons of God. This is made even more apparent by the previous verse, verse 11, which says that "He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him". It was their choice to either reject or receive him. It is also apparent that receiving here means believing in Him.

John 1:12 is a declaration of a biblical truth! That declaration is this: believing and receiving Christ is that power is given to those that do so.

John does not stop with verse 12, he then give us a commentary on what he just said by adding John 1:13.

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Which John 1:12,13 proves to any person that is not biased, and whose eyes are open, the difference between John 1:11 and John 1:12,13~the difference being power was given to some and to others it was not given. God owes no man truth, he does as he wills to whomsoever he wills.

I just faithfully expounded in a few words John 1:11-13.

Why would you think that I would separate faith from salvation? I don't. In fact, quite the opposite. It thoroughly am convinced that faith is the basis upon which God has placed us in that select group that inherits eternal life. Yes it is a privilege to believe in Jesus Christ. And it is a privilege to also suffer for his sake. Paul has just described his own conflicting thoughts of that he would prefer to die and be with Christ but knows that his continuing to live will be best for his readers. Even in his own internal conflict, he knows that living and suffering here is very much a privilege.

Why would I? Because you said Salvation is a gift, faith is not.

Jim, faith is not just a privilege, it is a free gift given to God's elect. No man in the flesh......unregenerate men can have faith (that is, spiritual faith ~ natural faith, all men have a certain amount of that in things that do not profit them) when he decides to have it~the flesh is at enmity against God, from the womb forward until a person is born again and then he has a new man that can have faith, that comes by hearing the word of God, even though his sinful flesh will war against Spirit, and will until the death of the body of sin in which he still dwells in.

Here again, it seems clear enough that faith, believing in God, is the prerequisite to God's justifying Abraham. It is the single reason for God's justifying, not only Abraham, but the Gentiles as well.

There is not rational way that you can deny what Paul is saying there in Galatians. Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Paul is not addressing what is prerequisite, but the system under which we lived by in order to know we have eternal life! God's children whose eyes are open do not seek to be justified by the works of the law, but by faith in what Jesus Christ secured for us by his faith and obedience. We live under the very same system that Abraham lived under, that is, the system of faith, the system that all of God's elect should seek to be justified under. Sad to say, some are still seeking their justification under the works of the law, just as those at Galatia did.

Yes Jim, those few who live by faith in Christ alone for free justification are indeed blessed along with Abraham. We do not seek to do this, that, etc, but trust in Christ alone for our justifications from sin and condemnation. There are no works of flesh that a man can do to cause him to be justified legally in God's sight, not one work of obedience. Be it even his faith!

Over and over again, the scriptures tell us that God justifies those who believe. Paul continues that specific point here in Galatians. He says just a few verses later, that "so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith" (Gal 3:14). The promised Spirit, being born again of the Spirit (John 3:3-8), is received through faith.

It should be plain as the nose on your face that receiving the Spirit through faith means that faith precedes receiving the Spirit.

It is the believer that receives the promised Spirit; it is the believer that is regenerated! ! !

Jim, I'm coming back to address this since it may take a larger space than I should do in this present post.

 

[JIM]

Jim, I'm coming back to address this since it may a larger space than I should do in this present post.

Red, You can do as you please, but I am through with this discussion. You and I have been through this so many times before. I know what you will say, and I will learn nothing new by continuing. And it seems pretty clear to me that no one on this forum is interested in my views on this so continuing will not accomplish anything.

 

[Mr GLee]

I understand Hebrews 11:39. I am not sure how that tells anyone how they might determine whether or not they have been regenerated.

Its a living abiding hope. Hope seen is no hope. Walk by the unseen eternal hope

 

[makesends]

Why would you think that I would separate faith from salvation? I don't. In fact, quite the opposite. It thoroughly am convinced that faith is the basis upon which God has placed us in that select group that inherits eternal life. Yes it is a privilege to believe in Jesus Christ. And it is a privilege to also suffer for his sake. Paul has just described his own conflicting thoughts of that he would prefer to die and be with Christ but knows that his continuing to live will be best for his readers. Even in his own internal conflict, he knows that living and suffering here is very much a privilege.

There is not rational way that you can deny what Paul is saying there in Galatians. Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

You can't see the fogginess of your own argument? First you say that Paul is describing his conflict between wanting to go and be with the Lord, and the need of those who are still here for his instruction, then you restate a theme, that faith is the basis upon which God has placed us in that select group that inherits eternal life. The you claim anyone who denies what Paul is saying there in Galatians is irrational.

WHAT are you saying that Paul is saying there in Galatians? Which? Are you saying there is no rational way one can deny the conflict, or are you claiming that Paul is saying that "faith is the basis upon which God has placed us in that select group that inherits eternal life." and that there is no rational way that one can deny that is what Paul is saying? Or are you saying that there is no rational way that one can deny that "faith is the basis upon which God has placed us in that select group that inherits eternal life."?

There are plenty of people more rational than you or me, who deny that is what Paul is saying there.

My point here isn't to argue the matter, but to point out your excess. Your attempted appeal to rationality or intelligence doesn't help your point.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, You can do as you please, but I am through with this discussion. You and I have been through this so many times before. I know what you will say, and I will learn nothing new by continuing. And it seems pretty clear to me that no one on this forum is interested in my views on this so continuing will not accomplish anything.

Good morning Jim,

Our Lord continue to faithfully teach the word of God knowing that most would not hear, nor believe what he was saying, yet that did not stop him, and neither should it stop anyone in our day. I know few will never believe what I have to say, yet, it is not up to me not to continue to being faithful to what I believe God has revealed unto me, and he did not do so, for me to keep it hidden under a bushel, but to use whatever talent he has given to me for the good of others, or if nothing more than to just be the light He desires for us to be.

I've been on forum for the last few years, knowing (for the most part) it is the only pulpit now available to God's children.........outward professing churches no longer desire the truth in most places, there are a few exceptions, but so few, and even then, it is under the control one man who thinks that he's the only voice the congregation should consider as God's mouth piece for others to hear.

So, why stop? You are not God and do not truly know the hearts of anyone, you very well may have something someone needs to hear. I was on the church of Christ forum for a few years knowing that they would not hear me, yet, I made sure they got more than they could defend in most cases~most of God's OT and NT apostles prophets preach knowing that the folks would not hear them, but would persecute them, even unto death, you and I have not reach that point and most likely never will.

You have been an iron to me, that made me search more diligently for the truth. Your eschatology is very sound, plus, you generally have something to say that makes sense, which to me shows your sincerity, maybe misguided, yet sincere nevertheless.

 

[JIM]

Good morning Jim,

Our Lord continue to faithfully teach the word of God knowing that most would not hear, nor believe what he was saying, yet that did not stop him, and neither should it stop anyone in our day.

Mar 6:11 And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them."

 

[Red Baker]

Mar 6:11 And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them."

Not so sure that would apply to forums where you discuss scriptures differences.

Matthew 4:23​

“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.”

Acts 17:2​

“And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,”

 

[JIM]

Perhaps or perhaps not.

 

[Mr GLee]

Mar 6:11 And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them."

I would offer.

Makes a interesting bible study ..The beautiful feet of the apostles in that parable . .

Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Mark 6:9-12 But be shod with sandals; and not put on "two coats". And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Not each other )Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Not the departing from one another.

Two "gospel coats" cover nakedness'

Luke 3:11He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise

Jesus the prophet declared the will of the father and said ; if he does not wash their feet then they have no part in the gospel

Believers wash each other with the water of the word , Shake the dust from those who deny Christ .

Not a doctrine for believer to smite with the fist of wickedness: each other False gospel fast

Isaiah 58:4-5 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

Isaiah 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him(two gospel coats) ; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

 

[JIM]

You have been an iron to me, that made me search more diligently for the truth. Your eschatology is very sound, plus, you generally have something to say that makes sense, which to me shows your sincerity, maybe misguided, yet sincere nevertheless.

And you for me, Red. I could always count on your logical arguments even if I disagreed with your premises. I don't find very much of that same thing here.

But perhaps that is just me.