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Question for Calvinists

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?????

I've read the entire "Institutes....". Many times. I quoted the salient portion of v. 17 above! Here it is in its entirety.

"17. Then, again, when they ask us what faith for several years followed our baptism, that they may thereby prove that our baptism was in vain, since it is not sanctified unless the word of the promise is received with faith, our answer is, that being blind and unbelieving, we for a long time did not hold the promise which was given us in baptism, but that still the promise, as it was of God, always remained fixed, and firm, and true. Although all men should be false and perfidious, yet God ceases not to be true (Rom. 3:3, 4); though all were lost, Christ remains safe. We acknowledge, therefore, that at that time baptism profited us nothing, since in us the offered promise, without which baptism is nothing, lay neglected. Now, when by the grace of God we begin to repent, we accuse our blindness and hardness of heart in having been so long ungrateful for his great goodness. But we do not believe that the promise itself has vanished, we rather reflect thus: God in baptism promises the remission of sins, and will undoubtedly perform what he has promised to all believers. That promise was offered to us in baptism, let us therefore embrace it in faith. In regard to us, indeed, it was long buried on account of unbelief; now, therefore, let us with faith receive it. Wherefore, when the Lord invites the Jewish people to repentance, he gives no injunction concerning another circumcision, though (as we have said) they were circumcised by a wicked and sacrilegious hand, and had long lived in the same impiety. All he urges is conversion of heart. For how much soever the covenant might have been violated by them, the symbol of the covenant always remained, according to the appointment of the Lord, firm and inviolable. Solely, therefore, on the condition of repentance, were they restored to the covenant which God had once made with them in circumcision, though this which they had received at the hand of a covenant-breaking priest, they had themselves as much as in them lay polluted and extinguished."
Okay., and how do you get baptismal regeneration out of that? Am I missing something?
 
@Josheb
Josheb said:
However, it is not the water itself that has any power. That is not what Calvin thought.
It sure is what he taught. How can you not see that?
 
The "Institutes..." was originally written as a set of recommendations for the RCC. When it came to infant baptism, Calvin taught RCCism, not scripture. He did so in overt criticism of the Protestant rivals, the Anabaptists and in direct defense of RCCism.
Calvin did not teach RCCism and you have not proven that he did.
 
In section 6 Calvin wrote,

"And yet he who baptises into Christ cannot but at the same time invoke the name of the Father and the Spirit. For we are cleansed by his blood, just because our gracious Father, of his incomparable mercy, willing to receive us into favour, appointed him Mediator to effect our reconciliation with himself. Regeneration we obtain from his death and resurrection only, when sanctified by his Spirit we are imbued with a new and spiritual nature. Wherefore we obtain, and in a manner distinctly perceive, in the Father the cause, in the Son the matter, and in the Spirit the effect of our purification and regeneration. Thus, first John baptised, and thus afterwards the apostles by the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, understanding by the term repentance, regeneration, and by the remission of sins, ablution."

An infant who is baptised cannot lay claim to the effect of purification and regeneration absent the Spirit, but because water baptism is a baptism of repentance it is also regenerative and washed clean the infant from his sin (ablution).
I really do not think you understand what your reading in the institutes concerning baptism.
Can an infant repent?
Now you sound like a Baptist. Don't get me wrong, baptists are brothers and sisters in Christ, they just have baptism all wrong IMO. Could/would you explain in short exactly what you believe baptism is and accomplishes? Thanks.
 
@Josheb

Consider this by Calvin.
.....
since God communicated circumcision to infants as a sacrament of repentance and of faith, it does not seem absurd if they are now made participants in Baptism - unless men choose to rage openly at God's institution.



Christ ushered in a new and better covenant, with two sacraments, the Lord's Supper and Baptism. Neither saves. Baptism replaced circumcision, circumcision did not save, and neither does baptism. Calvin did not teach baptismal regeneration.
 
Okay., and how do you get baptismal regeneration out of that?
I have already answered that question.
Am I missing something?
Yes. Go back and re-read the posts.
It sure is what he taught. How can you not see that?
Oh my. I can and did see it! I posted it in Post 11, which precedes Posts 11 and 16! Posts 11 and 16 repeat what I had already stated. What Posts 11 and 16 did was unnecessarily repeat what had already been posted in Post 11.

How can that not be seen?

  • How is it not be seen Post 11 states what the subsequent posts repeat?
  • How is it not seen Post 13 unnecessarily repeats what was already posted two posts previously?
  • How is it not seen Post 16 unnecessarily repeats what was already posted two posts previously?
  • Most importantly, how is it not seen Posts 22 and 24 make the discussion personal and ad hominem?

And if it was seen beforehand then all red herring. I'm being asked how I cannot see what is a matter of personal opinion assuming I am somehow blind that has no place in this thread.
I really do not think you understand what your reading in the institutes concerning baptism.
Yeah, that's the second time I've read that.
Now you sound like a Baptist.
Non sequitur
Don't get me wrong, baptists are brothers and sisters in Christ, they just have baptism all wrong IMO. Could/would you explain in short exactly what you believe baptism is and accomplishes? Thanks.
Non sequitur. The question asked was, "Can infants repent?" It does NOT take a Baptist (or any denominational affiliation to answer the question asked. Being Baptist has nothing to do with the question asked and instead of directly and immediately answering the question, Posts 22 and 24 make things personal.

Please make the effort to keep the posts about the posts, not the posters.

Please also answer the question asked. The question asked is,

Can an infant repent?

.
 
Non sequitur. The question asked was, "Can infants repent?" It does NOT take a Baptist (or any denominational affiliation to answer the question asked. Being Baptist has nothing to do with the question asked and instead of directly and immediately answering the question, Posts 22 and 24 make things personal.

Please make the effort to keep the posts about the posts, not the posters.

Please also answer the question asked. The question asked is,

Can an infant repent?
Baptism has nothing to do with whether or not infants can repent. That is a silly baptist argument.
 
Part 2:
@Josheb

Consider this by Calvin.
.....
since God communicated circumcision to infants as a sacrament of repentance and of faith, it does not seem absurd if they are now made participants in Baptism - unless men choose to rage openly at God's institution.



Christ ushered in a new and better covenant, with two sacraments, the Lord's Supper and Baptism. Neither saves. Baptism replaced circumcision, circumcision did not save, and neither does baptism. Calvin did not teach baptismal regeneration.
Not a word of that is correct.

  • God did not communicate circumcision as a sacrament.
  • God did not communicate circumcision of infants as a sacrament of repentance and faith.
  • No one here is raging openly at God's institution.
  • Christ did not usher in a new and better covenant with two sacrament; he ushered in a new and better covenant with his death and resurrection.
  • The Lord's Supper is not a "sacrament" in the New Testament, and nowhere therein is it assigned salvific merit. The Lord's supper was a meal, a full meal, shared by and administrated by and administered among the entire congregation, NOT a thimble and wafer.
  • Water baptism did NOT replace circumcision. Circumcision was discarded wholly. In Judaism, when a person was converted to Judaism, to the covenant initiated by God with Abraham and Jesus they were both circumcised and baptized. They went through both rituals, a ceremonial cleansing and a ritual scarification signifying their inclusion in the covenant. One did not replace the other. In the New Testament baptism persisted and circumcision was discarded.
  • Neither saves. Neither saves but Calvin explicitly stated, "For he did not mean to intimate that our ablution and salvation are perfected by water, or that water possesses in itself the virtue of purifying, regenerating, and renewing; nor does he mean that it is the cause of salvation, but only that the knowledge and certainty of such gifts are perceived in this sacrament." The knowledge and certainty are perceived in the gifts. That is what he stated. Calvin does not know an infant's ablution and salvation are certain. He most certainly does not know an infant's ablution and salvation are certain relevant, correlatively (not causally), to water baptism. Calvin does not know purification, regeneration, and renewing are certain consequent to an infant's baptism. The infant is not certain of these gifts. The parents of the infant of these gifts. The certainty of salvation is dependent upon and correlated to one thing: the will and work of God alone. Nowhere does scripture ever state the certainty of salvation is perceived in infant baptism.

Every word of Post 25 is incorrect.
Calvin did not teach baptismal regeneration.
Let's see...


In Article 4 Calvin refutes those who say the then commonly-held belief, "...forgiveness, which at our first regeneration we receive by baptism alone, is after baptism procured by means of penitence and the keys." He refutes that "fiction" on the basis the belief baptism can be separated from the ministry of the Church, preaching the gospel wherein "we are washed from our sins by the blood of Christ," and the sign of that evidence is baptism.

"And what is the sign and evidence of that washing if it be not baptism?"

When baptism occurs at the time of conversion the baptism is a sign of what has already occurred = regeneration, washing, repentance, the preaching of the gospel, the washing away of sins, and the ministry of the Church. Most of us here would agree: baptism cannot be separated from that list. Baptism has no salvific merit in and of itself AND it has no merit apart from the blood of Christ. None of that has happened with an infant. What Calvin is saying is that the infant's baptism is evidence of a later perfected faith. To justify his defense he resorts to an ad hominem...

"There is no wonder if men who, from the grossness of their minds, are excessively attached to external things, have here also betrayed the defect, — if not contented with the pure institution of God, they have introduced new helps devised by themselves, as if baptism were not itself a sacrament of penance."

Only those with gross minds believe otherwise 🤮. And if John Calvin were here right now I would tell him to his face the attack on the person has no logical merit. It should be left out of your defense of Calvin, infant and otherwise.

Calvin most definitely asserts a retroactive assurance to baptism.

"Wherefore, there can be no doubt that all the godly may, during the whole course of their lives, whenever they are vexed by a consciousness of their sins, recall the remembrance of their baptism, that they may thereby assure themselves of that sole and perpetual ablution which we have in the blood of Christ."

An infant does not and cannot remember his/her own baptism. An older child or an adult person can and may recall that episode, but not an infant. An infant can rely on second and third-hand reports they were baptized (like the testimony of a parent or the written documentation of the event), but s/he has no recollection in and of themselves by which s/he might remember. Calvin pinned assurance on memory, not faith n God.

In the very next Article Calvin states,

"Another benefit of baptism is, that it shows us our mortification in Christ and new life in him. “Know ye not,” says the apostle, “that as many of us as were baptised into Jesus Christ, were baptised into his death? Therefore, we are buried with him by baptism into death,” that we “should walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:3, 4)."

And he concludes,

"On this he founds his exhortation, that if we are Christians we should be dead unto sin, and alive unto righteousness. He elsewhere uses the same argument—viz. that we are circumcised, and put off the old man, after we are buried in Christ by baptism (Col. 2:12). And in this sense, in the passage which we formerly quoted, he calls it “the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Tit. 3:5). We are promised, first, the free pardon of sins and imputation of righteousness; and, secondly, the grace of the Holy Spirit, to form us again to newness of life."

This all makes sense when applied to a person old enough to make a conscious profession of faith and act in accordance with all that was just asserted. Little if any of it applies to an infant. The repeated protest is Calvin never taught baptism is regenerative, but Calvin just said baptism renders a person dead unto sin and alive unto righteousness. The regeneration is necessarily implicit. How can ANYONE be alive to righteousness apart from regeneration? They cannot! Calvin would agree! So, without coming right out and saying it, Calvin implicitly argued baptism (when later applied with the ministry of the Church, belief in the gospel, or the working of the Spirit in regeneration) was regenerative. His argument simultaneously begs the question and contradicts assertions made elsewhere.

According to Calvin, there is a certain promise of pardon and the imputation of righteousness when baptized.

In the next Article (6), he states,

"Regeneration we obtain from his death and resurrection only, when sanctified by his Spirit we are imbued with a new and spiritual nature. Wherefore we obtain, and in a manner distinctly perceive, in the Father the cause, in the Son the matter, and in the Spirit the effect of our purification and regeneration. Thus first John baptised, and thus afterwards the apostles by the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, understanding by the term repentance, regeneration, and by the remission of sins, ablution."

The manner, cause, and effect of the Trinity is perceived in baptism for the remission of sins, understanding repentance, regeneration, and ablution (cleansing) inherent to that baptism. That makes sense when baptism occurs consequent to a conversion experience, but the infant hasn't had a conversion experience. Calvin is arguing regeneration will be obtained only from the death and resurrection of Christ, but Calvin has also argued that is a certainty. When applied to the infant, pedobaptism comes with a certain promised, a promised certainty of regeneration found in Christ's death and resurrection.

It is retroactive 😊.
 
Part 3:
Article 12 explicitly states,

"Here we say nothing more than the apostle Paul expounds most clearly in the sixth and seventh chapters of the Epistle to the Romans. He had discoursed of free justification, but as some wicked men thence inferred that they were to live as they listed, because their acceptance with God was not procured by the merit of works, he adds, that all who are clothed with the righteousness of Christ are at the same time regenerated by the Spirit, and that we have an earnest of this regeneration in baptism."

We have an ernest, a guarantee, a promise, a sincere intense conviction from God of this regeneration in baptism. Again, that makes perfect sense when applied to a person who has had a Spirit-driven conversion experience. It is not sensical in an infant...... unless that infant is assumed to have had a conversion experience. It is likely the children in Lydia's and the jailer's households were baptized. That baptism did not regenerate them, and it did not guarantee their later regeneration. Calvin said it did. Calvin said that baptism of the infant came with a certain promise and an ernest of regeneration.


And if I read another critical reference to me personally in the next post I will not reply further. Please keep the posts about the posts, not the posters. Book 4, Chapter 15 and 16 could be discussed for days without ever mentioning anyone other than Calvin. I'd like to see the effort made, and observably so.
 
Can an infant repent?
Could an infant who was circumcised on the 8th day understand what the sign meant? Of course not. But they were truly circumcized to the mortification of their corrupt and defiled nature. A mortification that they would afterward practice in mature years.

So it is with baptism.
 
Could an infant who was circumcised on the 8th day understand what the sign meant? Of course not.
I did not ask if the infant understood.

But, working with what was provided, that answer then indicates little that Calvin claimed about repentance, remission of sins, and baptism is applicable to the infant. He overstepped orthodoxy to affirm RCCism, and did so overtly as a dissent from Anabaptist perspectives...... not scripture. The fact of scripture is that the entire testimony of baptism in the New Testament is precedented with adults, not infants.
But they were truly circumcized to the mortification of their corrupt and defiled nature. A mortification that they would afterward practice in mature years.
This isn't about circumcision, I will not collaborate with any attempted bait and switch or move of the goal posts. Scripture does NOT equate cincumcision with baptism. Nor does it report baptism replaces circumcision. In fact, the New Testament never actually calls baptism a "sign."

ALL of that is a holdover from RCCism, not the explicit report of scripture. Does that make all of it incorrect? Not necessarily. An inferential case could be made for baptism as a sign, but it is a sign in and of itself, not one inherently correlated to circumcision.
A mortification that they would afterward practice in mature years.
Who is the "they" in that sentence? It cannot be "the baptized infant," because millions, possibly billons of infants have been baptized and never practiced mortification in mature years. They couldn't. Baptism is not regenerative.
So it is with baptism.
Prove it..... op-relevantly.



Before you do so, give some thought to the unstated purpose of this op. Why would subscribers of a specific, given theology be asked if they were aware of any errors its author or founder had made? What beneficial purpose might be served by the adherent knowing the answer to that question about him/herself? Knowing that might help you understand the point being made about Calvin's views of water baptism.








Btw, the question asked still was not answered. I did not ask if the infant understood. I asked if the infant could repent. The record now shows the question was asked twice and twice not answered.


Can the infant repent?


.
 
I did not ask if the infant understood.

But, working with what was provided, that answer then indicates little that Calvin claimed about repentance, remission of sins, and baptism is applicable to the infant. He overstepped orthodoxy to affirm RCCism, and did so overtly as a dissent from Anabaptist perspectives...... not scripture. The fact of scripture is that the entire testimony of baptism in the New Testament is precedented with adults, not infants.

This isn't about circumcision, I will not collaborate with any attempted bait and switch or move of the goal posts. Scripture does NOT equate cincumcision with baptism. Nor does it report baptism replaces circumcision. In fact, the New Testament never actually calls baptism a "sign."

ALL of that is a holdover from RCCism, not the explicit report of scripture. Does that make all of it incorrect? Not necessarily. An inferential case could be made for baptism as a sign, but it is a sign in and of itself, not one inherently correlated to circumcision.

Who is the "they" in that sentence? It cannot be "the baptized infant," because millions, possibly billons of infants have been baptized and never practiced mortification in mature years. They couldn't. Baptism is not regenerative.

Prove it..... op-relevantly.



Before you do so, give some thought to the unstated purpose of this op. Why would subscribers of a specific, given theology be asked if they were aware of any errors its author or founder had made? What beneficial purpose might be served by the adherent knowing the answer to that question about him/herself? Knowing that might help you understand the point being made about Calvin's views of water baptism.








Btw, the question asked still was not answered. I did not ask if the infant understood. I asked if the infant could repent. The record now shows the question was asked twice and twice not answered.


Can the infant repent?


.
It's my opinion, that nothing short of John Calvin coming back himself and pointing out what he wrote and explaining it will suffice.
 
It's my opinion, that nothing short of John Calvin coming back himself and pointing out what he wrote and explaining it will suffice.
Is the irony of that statement recognized?
 
I'm not entitled to my opinion?
Non sequitur (again). I see I am going to have difficulty getting questions answered directly and succinctly in a timely manner so I will thank you for your time and entertain conversations with others.
 
This question about the Institutes made me go check our house library's copy to see what Calvin's expressed views were on the whole "eternally begotten" argument. While it appears in Book 1, ch. 13 that Calvin did not ascribe to the typical "eternally begotten" view, it doesn't seem that Calvin actually realized what the term "begotten" meant, as expressed in Psalms 2:7 and explained by Paul in Acts 13:33-34. To quote Calvin, "Indeed, it is foolish to imagine a continuous act of begetting, since it is clear that three persons have subsisted in God from eternity."

The term "begotten" in Psalms 2 was referring to the single day in time that the newly-resurrected Christ ascended to the Father. Something was "born" in heaven that morning that had never existed there before: namely, a bodily-resurrected, glorified human form standing before the Ancient of Days, and brought near before Him. Christ was the "First-born" and the "First-begotten" to accomplish this ascension in a glorified, resurrected human body. These titles were unique to Christ Jesus alone for all time.

As John 3:13 had once said, "No man hath ascended up to heaven..." up to that point. And in AD 33, the resurrected, ascended Christ was the "ONLY begotten of the Father" (as John 1:14 describes Jesus) yet to have done this ascending to God in a resurrected body. But actually, the ascended Jesus Christ was only the "First-born among many brethren" who would also eventually ascend to God in glorified, resurrected bodies. So Christ would not always retain the "ONLY-begotten" status. He would be followed by others. As the "First-born", He "opened up the matrix" for the rest of His brethren to follow Him in their also being able to stand before God in heaven in glorified, resurrected bodies made immortal and incorruptible.
 
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For those who are interested, the thing signified by baptism in general, is the reception into the covenant of grace, as administered under the New Testament. As circumcision was the sign and seal of the Old Testament, - you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. Genesis 17:11.

So baptism, which succeeds circumcision, In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, Col 2:11. is the sign of the new covenant.
 
Thank you!

You're welcome.


First, it is worth noting [that] "soul sleep" is not a 19th-century invention. Psychopannychia proves [that] this point of view was held many centuries earlier. ...

It should be made known that this doctrine in fact reaches back much earlier than the 16th century. Some early Christian writers in the third and fourth centuries (e.g., Tatian, Arnobius, Lactantius, etc.) expressed views consistent with Christian mortalism, whether psychopannychism (soul sleep) or thnetopsychism (soul death). While this concept has existed in various forms throughout church history—and saw a revival from the 15th century onward because of men like Wycliffe, Luther, Tyndale, Milton, Locke, Berkouwer, Cullmann, Wenham, Fudge, etc.—it has never been a majority view within mainstream Christianity.


Soul sleep was a significant controversy during the 16th century, so much that Calvin wrote ...

... to say that at first he couldn't be bothered, despite urgent requests, to publish something that would counter the soul sleep view. He didn't want to platform it, we would say it today, because he was hoping this "absurd dogma" would just fade into obscurity on its own. It was not, however, limited to a few "insignificant" individuals, as history would prove.


... and depriving the Pope of that domain was one of the reasons to deny soul sleep.

That sentence did not make sense to me. The opposite was the case. It was the doctrine of soul sleep itself which denied the Pope that domain. The soul that sleeps from death until the resurrection is thus not in purgatory. That, Calvin supposed, was why soul sleep was "received with so much favor," because it was seen as a useful argument against the "Popish controversy" surrounding its teachings and practices on purgatory ("out of which poor souls might be delivered with more or less expedition, according to the number of well-paid masses that were said for them"). The Reformers, including Calvin, were strongly opposed to the teaching of purgatory. Since soul sleep would deny the Pope this "larger half of his domain," that probably accounts for much of its attraction, Calvin mused.


As far as Calvin holding [that] "humans consist of an immaterial, immortal soul that survives consciously the death of the body," I wish you had supported that statement with words from Calvin and, more importantly, provided us with an orthodox alternative. Please do so now, if you have the inclination.

In his Institutes of the Christian Religion (n.d.), Calvin said that "man consists of a body and a soul—meaning by soul an immortal although created essence that is the nobler part" (1:190). And in An Excellent Treatise of the Immortality of the Soul (1581) Calvin said that, contrary to the views psychopannychists and thnetopsychists, "we say and maintain the soul to be a substance, and that it lives indeed after the body is dead, having sense and understanding."

And before I can give you an orthodox alternative, I need to know how you're defining "orthodox." If it means conforming to the traditional and widely accepted doctrines of Christianity, then I cannot—because this is a minority view, as it has been for millennia. What I would be giving you, then, is a heterodox alternative, insofar as it's an unconventional view which deviates from and challenges traditional and widely accepted views.

There are two authors who had a significant influence on shaping my view, one of whom is G. C. Berkouwer, Man: The Image of God (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1962), 376 pp.
 
In his Institutes of the Christian Religion (n.d.), Calvin said that "man consists of a body and a soul—meaning by soul an immortal although created essence that is the nobler part" (1:190). And in An Excellent Treatise of the Immortality of the Soul (1581) Calvin said that, contrary to the views psychopannychists and thnetopsychists, "we say and maintain the soul to be a substance, and that it lives indeed after the body is dead, having sense and understanding."

And before I can give you an orthodox alternative, I need to know how you're defining "orthodox." If it means conforming to the traditional and widely accepted doctrines of Christianity, then I cannot—because this is a minority view, as it has been for millennia. What I would be giving you, then, is a heterodox alternative, insofar as it's an unconventional view which deviates from and challenges traditional and widely accepted views.

There are two authors who had a significant influence on shaping my view, one of whom is G. C. Berkouwer, Man: The Image of God (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1962), 376 pp.
An orthodox alternative would be one couched in scripture, not post-scriptural man-made doctrine(s). For example, I've already posted the fact there are no bodiless souls in scripture. Another example would be 1 Cor. 15, which tells us we will be raised imperishable or incorruptible and immortal. This implies we are not immortal prior to that transformation. Furthermore, Jesus said the one who can destroy both body and soul (Gk. = psychen) in hell should be feared. This necessarily and inescapably implies the soul is not immortal; it can be killed or destroyed. Regardless of what tradition or anything else says, what scripture says is the soul is not an immaterial soul and it is not immortal. Therefore, anyone, Calvin, Berkouwer, tradition, you, me, Ricky, Lucy, Bert or Ernie, it does not matter, anyone who says otherwise is contradicting scripture..... the orthodox alternative ;).

Berkouwer is great. However, I hope my request for a comparative alternative is now clear to all. I'm not asking for one theologian's opinions over another's. That would do nothing more than create a competition between fallacious appeals to authorities. I'd have all kinds of dispensationalists telling me all of Calvin's errors when measured by their misguided wretched theology.

Keep it simple. Calvin taught pedobaptism was salvific, and here's where the evidence for his teaching can be found. The orthodox alternative would be the precedent established in scripture where baptism is normally performed at the time of conversion when and where the gifts of grace, mercy, faith, etc. can be manifested in the profession of those gifts by the one being saved.

An appeal could be made to the fact Reformed doctrine has changed since Calvin but that, again, would simply be comparing one man's views with others.




I'd also like to commend your use of something other than "The Institutes..." I make this commendation for two reasons, maybe three. The first is that the "Institutes..." is NOT the best place for understanding Calvin's views. His commentaries on the various books of scripture are much better resources. The Institutes was originally written as a Catholic to the Roman Catholic Church for the purpose of reforming the RCC. It was not, originally, a Protestant document. It was wholly Catholic. It was also a very small treatise in the beginning (only six chapters if memory serves me correctly). Calvin expanded it through the years, but it remained a document couched in RCCism. As the Protestant Reformation itself became institutionalized (no pun intended), so too did Calvin's writings become more "Protestant." Therefore, you use of other examples of Calvin's views that were extra-RCC and still anti-Anabaptists (whoever still-couched-in RCCism they may be, and whatever other sectarian views he was opposing), was an excellent exercise in examining Calvin's extra-Institutes views. Lastly, it appears you've actually read those source materials and are not relying on second-hand, or third-hand anecdotal report without verifying the information yourself.

Well done.


I do not want to digress to talk about these tangents, but I'd like the readers to know the request for evidence of both Calvin's specific error and an alternative orthodoxy is one that is to be measured by as-written, well-exegeted scripture. Berkouwer, for example, would be a friend of Calvin, but that does not mean Berkouwer's views of Calvin are inherently correct. Measuring Calvin by Berkouwer, Pink, and Sproul (to name three examples) may have different results. Measuring Calvin by well-rendered scripture should avoid that diversity and subjectivity. Therefore, the op and any answer provided should be understood as a simple matter:

Calvin says "X" about the soul, and here's the evidence proving that was his position. What does scripture teach?
 
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