Annihilationism is taught in the bible

[Red Baker]

Thanks I do know . He teaches us One thing I am learning is many literalize the hidden gospel understanding. That can cause confusion????

Parables are designed to teach dying mankind how to walk after the unseen eternal things of God .Christians can seek his understating of parables and how and why?. Remember without them he spoke not . It's where the rubber grips the narrow path .

If you say so.

 

[Eleanor]

P. S.: (con't from post #119)

Eleanor, I fully agree and defend, that we died in Adam and judgment of condemnation was passed on us in Adam

Yes, the judgment and condemnation of a fallen nature, of being an object of wrath (Eph 2:3), of separation from and an enemy of God (Ro 5:10), is passed on to us by inheritance from Adam.
But we do not inherit Adam's sin (Eze 18:20), it is imputed to us.

And we know of that imputation of sin (position/standing before God) to us from Paul's demonstration of it in Ro 5:12-14,
which he then goes on to parallel with imputation of justification (righteous position/standing before God) in Ro 5:18-19.

 

[makesends]

Annihilationism is taught in the bible

Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism) is a belief that after the final judgment some human beings will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished, rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell. Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life by God.

Atheist claim they could never worship a God who is more evil than any person who lived, by torturing people in Hell for all eternity.



Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Genesis 3:3
but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
God never said they could not examine the fruit.

Genesis 3:4
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

The serpent’s doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell.
Note: The word Hell is nowhere to be found in the original bible text.


Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I myself am He! There is no God besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

1 Samuel 2:6
"The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.

Proverbs 2:18
For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits.

Proverbs 8:36
But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."

Proverbs 11:19
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.

Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Proverbs 23:14
Punish him with the rod and save his (soul / spirit) from death.

Psalm 56:13
For you have delivered me from death and my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of life.

Psalm 118:18
The LORD has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to death.

Hosea 13:14
"I will ransom them from the power of the grave ; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

Ezekiel 18:32
I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Ezekiel 18:23
I do not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, I am pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

I don't know if you can follow the pattern, but the very sustenance and reality of this temporal existence is by God himself. If a person ceases to exist, he was only ever at best a temporal plant, and of no more moral accountability than an animal. Morality is not just a temporal question. Annihilationism doesn't make sense.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

The first part of that sentence, "I was brought forth," is passive and describes circumstances concerning the actions of the parents. The second is active and identifies the sense and the actions of the mother. Neither is a description of the condition of the author. That anyone uses that particular verse to establish original sin is actually quite silly.

Please provide the source material(s) for this novel and unconventional interpretation you presented.

It contradicts every source I consulted, both in my personal library and online. Every single exegetical and expository commentary I checked, from sources that are Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox, all appear to say the same thing, that David here is talking about either hereditary sin (majority view) or personal sin (minority view). None of them say that he is talking about the sinful actions of his parents.

Keil and Delitzsch sort of weave the two views together, insofar as David is confessing his "hereditary sin as the root of his actual sin." By moving from his birth to his conception, "it consequently penetrates even to the most remote point of life's beginning. ... [T]he meaning is merely that his parents were sinful human beings and that this sinful state has operated upon his birth and even his conception and, from this point, has passed over to him. ... He is sinful מלּדה וּמהריון [i.e., from his birth, even his conception] ... [he] is טמא מטּמא, an unclean one springing from an unclean (Job 14:4), flesh born of flesh. ... The fact of hereditary sin is here more distinctly expressed than in any other passage in the Old Testament, ..." (emphasis mine).

The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges echoes this view: "Acts of sin have their root in the inherited sinfulness of mankind. ... [David] feels compelled to confess and bewail not only his actual sins, but the deep infection of his whole nature." The Pulpit Commentary agrees, paraphrasing David in this way: "Not only have I committed acts of sin (vv. 1-4), but sin is thoroughly ingrained into my nature. I was conceived in it; I was brought forth in it; ... [T]he fact of congenital depravity is stated not only here but also in Job 14:4 and Ps 58:3 ..."

Please provide your sources.

Where do you ever read that God gave up his role as creater of spirits?

Nowhere. And nothing I said even implied such a thing, so that was an incoherent question.

To be perfectly clear: I didn't say Adam created my spirit, I said Adam stuck me with a dead spirit. In other words, Adam answers the question of why we are born with a spiritually dead nature into a spiritually dead world.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I don't know if you can follow the pattern, but the very sustenance and reality of this temporal existence is by God himself. If a person ceases to exist, he was only ever at best a temporal plant, and of no more moral accountability than an animal. Morality is not just a temporal question. Annihilationism doesn't make sense.

"If a person ceases to exist, he was only ever at best a temporal plant, and of no more moral accountability than an animal."

Please explain how that follows logically.

 

[prism]

We die SPIRITUALLY IMMEDIATELY as soon as we SIN and fall short of God's Glory.

Weren't we conceived in sin? Born in iniquity?

Psalm 51:5 NASB
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

 

[Red Baker]

P. S.: (con't from post #119)


Yes, the judgment and condemnation of a fallen nature, of being an object of wrath (Eph 2:3), of separation from and an enemy of God (Ro 5:10), is passed on to us by inheritance from Adam.
But we do not inherit Adam's sin (Eze 18:20), it is imputed to us.

And we know of that imputation of sin (position/standing before God) to us from Paul's demonstration of it in Ro 5:12-14,
which he then goes on to parallel with imputation of justification (righteous position/standing before God) in Ro 5:18-19.

Agreed 100%.

We are God's enemies by nature, his word and his people, but truly more than just a enemy of God, we are at enmity against him personally, which is much worse than just being a enemy of him, which I know you believe the same.

I'll address your longer post later ~ I'm starting late and have a small surgery mid day, so I got a few things to do first. May get to it, may not. RB

 

[Mr GLee]

If you say so.

What do you think parables are designed to do ?

 

[Red Baker]

What do you think parables are designed to do ?

Hide truth ~ put or keep out of sight; conceal from the readers thereof~unless, at God's good pleasure revealed to his very elect, and not to all of them!

 

[Mr GLee]

"If a person ceases to exist, he was only ever at best a temporal plant, and of no more moral accountability than an animal."

Please explain how that follows logically.

It's what all beast of the field do to include mankind . . .die once. By the instrument the letter of the law (death) as in dying as good as dead never to rise

They will not rise to new born again life .

When the new heaven and earth appear It was like they were never here. Our memory of them or them us us has vanishes never to come to mind forever and ever .

Life beyond one's last breath came about because some Old testament corrupted fathers desired to worship a queen of heaven who they teach as female deity alone received the fullness of grace the whole price of salvation and the rest of the creation received a "unknown remnant" of grace and they can continue to suffer wonder, suffer wonder etc after they take their last breath. In Limbo and purgatory

 

[Mr GLee]

Hide truth ~ put or keep out of sight; conceal from the readers thereof~unless, at God's good pleasure revealed to his very elect, and not to all of them!

So then they do teach us how to walk by His faith ?

 

[makesends]

"If a person ceases to exist, he was only ever at best a temporal plant, and of no more moral accountability than an animal."

Please explain how that follows logically.

It is more poetic than logical; it is a view of a pattern concerning the nature of one's existence. (Not an absolute statement, as it deals with principles beyond our ken.)

But I will give it a try. It has background in several known principles:

1) When I wrote it, I almost said that if a person ceases to exist, then, (as God sees apart from time as opposed to how we see from within time), that person never did exist. This is almost incoherent to say, as it necessarily uses human language and human concepts, but there is something to it. However, I do think God makes some things "to be no more" that do exist during this temporal "envelope". (Yet, in opposition to THAT, even those things during this vapor of existence that will be done away with, have, (I believe), a substantial parallel fact in Heaven. But admittedly, that is only something I believe to be so, and only at best alluded to in Scripture)

2) Above all other things, even above the angels, humans are made in the image of God. Implied by that fact, I think, is that ours is not merely a temporal, but a "permanent" existence.

3) Humans, being made in the image of God, are therefore of moral accountability; morality, being rooted in God, is of a permanent nature.

4) Sin is actual transgression against an eternal, infinite God. I see no way that can be dealt with merely temporally.

There are other things nagging at me I can't bring to the surface; those 4 will have to do for now.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Weren't we conceived in sin? Born in iniquity?

Psalm 51:5 NASB
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

And as soon as I COULD, I SINNED and fell short of God's Glory. You did too. So what's that got to do with a newborn??? When the Bible says that Everybody dies FOR THEIR OWN SIN, and not anybody else's (deut 24:16), is it a LIE???

 

[Mr GLee]

2) Above all other things, even above the angels, humans are made in the image of God. Implied by that fact, I think, is that ours is not merely a temporal, but a "permanent" existence.

Human messengers that some call angel, a word as a oral tradition of dying mankind coined and used to represent a unseen power as another hidden creation.

The Greek word Angelos translated into english is "messenger" how beautiful are the feet of those sent (apostles) shod with the gospel of peace. Angel fake name fit false prophecy, false authority. . . disembodied workers with a familiar spirit gods the legion some call patron saints.

There is no comparison of one creation to another.

The temporal seen must be mixed with the eternal is we desire to see the eternal vision Hid in parables they must be rightly divided if we are to enter his rest Hebrew 4 :1-2

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
No mixing no gospel. . . it becomes who saw what first?

 

[Mr GLee]

And as soon as I COULD, I SINNED and fell short of God's Glory. You did too. So what's that got to do with a newborn??? When the Bible says that Everybody dies FOR THEIR OWN SIN, and not anybody else's (deut 24:16), is it a LIE???

It's not so much when but does a person have the born again spirit of Christ .He informs us whoever does not does have the Sprit of Christ not belong to God . Marvel not. . . believe

 

[Eleanor]

Agreed 100%.

We are God's enemies by nature, his word and his people, but truly more than just a enemy of God, we are at enmity against him personally, which is much worse than just being a enemy of him, which I know you believe the same.

I'll address your longer post later ~ I'm starting late and have a small surgery mid day, so I got a few things to do first. May get to it, may not. RB

May I ask if you are Messianic, Dispensationalist or Seventh Day Adventist?

 

[Eleanor]

Gehenna is parabolic for destruction. Christ came speaking in parables.

Destruction does not mean annihilation, complete cessation of existence, it means ruin.

As in the burned house. It is ruined, turned into ashes, but the ashes (remains) still exist.
The human body in the grave is ruined, turned into dust, but the dust (remains) still exists.

Matter is neither created nor destroyed.

 

[Eleanor]

I'll address your longer post later ~ I'm starting late and have a small surgery mid day, so I got a few things to do first. May get to it, may not. RB

Or an annihilationist?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It's not so much when but does a person have the born again spirit of Christ

Another "word game".

A person who is Born again BY FAITH (Eph 2:8,9) is indwelled by the Holy Spirit (John 20:22).

The book of JAMES is essentially a discussion about whether a person is "born again or not", the question being: Does what YOU CALL FAITH produce "good works" or not. If it DOESN'T, then what you "CALL FAITH" isn't Biblical FAITH at all. Trying to "Get Faith" by doing "Good works" is a fool's errand.

 

[prism]

And as soon as I COULD, I SINNED and fell short of God's Glory. You did too. So what's that got to do with a newborn??? When the Bible says that Everybody dies FOR THEIR OWN SIN, and not anybody else's (deut 24:16), is it a LIE???

No lie, just a totally different dispensation and Covenant. The first conditional, dependent on our doing, the 2nd unconditional built on grace (Christ's doing).

Romans 5:12,14,18-19 NASB95
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. [18] So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. [19] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

As the Scriptures say...

Psalm 51:5 NASB
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

So what's that got to do with a newborn???

ask David and Paul.