PSA: What is Implied in Christ's Substitution; What Death Did He Die?

[ReverendRV]

God required that all sins be paid for before one can accept God's offer of salvation. Once the sins are paid for, mankind is qualified to be the recipient of God's grace. If Christ did not pay for the sins of mankind, mankind is still not eternally condemned, eternal condemnation is the result of not putting one's faith in God's offer of salvation.

God has placed mankind in a state of disobedience so he could have mercy on them ALL.

Adam wasn't Saved at the Protoevangelium before he was Redeemed on the Cross?

 

[ReverendRV]

I am tired of answering the same questions over and over.

Fair enough...

Lurkers, pay notice...

 

[EddieM]

Our own sins are incurred by us, not imputed to us.

The sins incurred by the believer are imputed to Christ.

Thank you for getting it right.

 

[Arial]

Literal interpretation does limit your translational options. Just read all the posts on the word redeemed if you dont believe me (where I am misquoted on many occasions, and Arial and others have told the members here that I hold to positions that I do not hold to.)

Keep your posts about the topic and not about persons. If someone has misquoted you---show the misquote and what you really said. Don't make accusations against someone unless you are prepared to verify the accusation. Also, address the post you are quoting and don't sidestep it with irrelevant material . "Translational options" in no way applies to the claims of what was responded to.

Yes all serious bible students hold to some presuppositions, once again I never said I was immune to them. But I will admit that Literal interpretation limits tranlsational options, whereas symbolism method and metaphorical method, and allegorical method have a wide range of translational options..

The conversation is not about translational options between symbolism, metaphorical, allegorical, literal. It is about whether the Reformed interpretation of 2Peter 2:1 specifically is not interpreting the passage literally simply because it does not give the same literal interpretation that you give.

 

[Arial]

I am only going to comment briefly on this first paragraph. {Edit by admin for violation of rule #2.1 and 2.3}

Literal interpretation does limit your translational options. Just read all the posts on the word redeemed if you dont believe me (where I am misquoted on many occasions, and Arial and others have told the members here that I hold to positions that I do not hold to.)

Yes all serious bible students hold to some presuppositions, once again I never said I was immune to them. But I will admit that Literal interpretation limits tranlsational options, whereas symbolism method and metaphorical method, and allegorical method have a wide range of translational options..

How about you join in forum participation and deal with what is in that paragraph instead of the person who wrote it. And with the rest of the post that followed. The purpose of this forum, at least, is civil discourse and discussion of the ideas that others put forth. Not just arguing and dismissing people and everything they say. That may be what you are used to, but this is not that.

 

[Arial]

If Christ did not pay for the sins of mankind, mankind is still not eternally condemned, eternal condemnation is the result of not putting one's faith in God's offer of salvation.

That would be unbelief which you say Christ DID pay for.

 

[John Bauer]

Why not take the literal meaning of this passage, and not try to impose your theological presuppositions?

What I posted was the literal meaning of the passage, as demonstrated through textual exegesis. It was by definition drawn from the text, not imposed on it.

I simply can't see why people in this forum can't understand what Peter is saying.

I do understand what Peter was saying, as explained. If you think I am wrong, show me where and how from the text itself (exegesis).

I presume that if you believe that unbelievers were redeem[ed] that would somehow force [you] to change some part of your theology.

Certainly, for in that case my theology would either (a) no longer be based upon the text or (b) based upon scriptures that contradict one another.

My theology is what it is because it's drawn from and based upon the self-consistent text of scriptures.

Changing the erroneous theology would be a better mark of scholarship than changing the meaning of a text.

I fully agree. Now, where is the erroneous theology? (Don't forget to look at your own.) Are you as committed to letting scripture be the final authority as I am? I am willing to submit my view to the clear teaching of God's word if it is found to be in error through meaningful, detailed exegesis. Are you?

1. How do you reconcile your interpretation of 2 Peter 2:1 with the broader biblical context (analogia fidei)? As Charles Hodge said, "God cannot teach in one place anything which is inconsistent with what he teaches in another. Hence, scripture must explain Scripture." If there may be different ways that a text can be interpreted, the correct interpretation is the one that aligns with what scripture teaches elsewhere on the same topic.

2. What is your position on this matter? What do you see as the strongest biblical evidence for your position? And how do you address the counter-evidence?

3. Are there any theologians or scholars you find particularly persuasive on this issue, and why?

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
Re: What is Implied in Christ's Substitution; What Death Did He Die?

At first glance, the cross appears to be substitutionary.

● Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
way; and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

However, it's a bit more complex than that.

"in Christ" is a common term used numerous times throughout the new testament
to designate folks unified with God's son, which is a huge advantage because folks
unified with Christ are on the books as having gone to the cross with him not
merely as observers, rather, as participants

● Rom 6:3 . . Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus
were baptized into his death?

● Rom 6:6-7 . . For we know that our old self was crucified with him

● Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

● Col 3:3-4 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

In addition; seeing as how folks unified with Christ are accounted participants with
him when he was crucified, then they are also accounted participants with him
when his crucified dead body was restored to life.

● Rom 6:4-5 . . For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,
we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

● Eph 2:6 . . God raised us up with Christ

● Col 2:12 . . Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him

● Col 3:1-3 . . You have been raised with Christ,

Now, the thing is: Jesus' crucified dead body was restored to life with immortality.
(Rom 6:9, Rev 1:18, Rev 2:8) So then, folks unified with Christ in his death and
resurrection have perpetual youth in the bag, i.e. it's a done deal and it's
irrevocable.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
I'd imagine the hardest part about Heaven is not getting there, but staying there.

Back in the decade of the 1960s, while still a young guy in his twenties, it occurred
to me that even if I managed to live a pious enough life to make the cut for
Heaven, I was pretty sure I couldn't keep up the good work forever. Sooner or later
I'd show my true colors and get thrown out.

It occurred to me that if I were as normally and naturally like God instead of like
myself, then it would be not only be very easy to attain Heaven but just as easy to
stay there. Well; God must've read my thoughts because in the course of time, I
ran across a passage in the book of Ezekiel that goes like this:

"I will gather you up from all the nations and bring you home again to your land.
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be
washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart
with new and right desires, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your
stony heart of sin and give you a new, obedient heart. And I will put My spirit in
you so you will obey My laws and do whatever I command. (36:24-27)

Just think of the tremendous advantage that passage speaks of. Whereas most
folks find it to be an effort to cooperate with God, with that promise in hand they
could work with God in a manner similar to the way His son Jesus always has.

● John 8:29 . . He that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I
do always those things that please Him.

● John 14:31 . . That the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father
gave me commandment, even so I do.

That passage in Ezekiel really perked me up and lifted my spirits because it gave
me a light at the end of the tunnel whereas before then, I had none.
_

 

[Eleanor]

.
I'd imagine the hardest part about Heaven is not getting there, but staying there.

It is in your power neither to get there nor stay there.

Back in the decade of the 1960s, while still a young guy in his twenties, it occurred
to me that even if I managed to live a pious enough life to make the cut for
Heaven, I was pretty sure I couldn't keep up the good work forever. Sooner or later
I'd show my true colors and get thrown out.

It occurred to me that if I were as normally and naturally like God instead of like
myself, then it would be not only be very easy to attain Heaven but just as easy to
stay there. Well; God must've read my thoughts because in the course of time, I
ran across a passage in the book of Ezekiel that goes like this:

"I will gather you up from all the nations and bring you home again to your land.
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be
washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart
with new and right desires, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your
stony heart of sin and give you a new, obedient heart. And I will put My spirit in
you so you will obey My laws and do whatever I command. (36:24-27)

Just think of the tremendous advantage that passage speaks of. Whereas most
folks find it to be an effort to cooperate with God, with that promise in hand they
could work with God in a manner similar to the way His son Jesus always has.

● John 8:29 . . He that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I
do always those things that please Him.

● John 14:31 . . That the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father
gave me commandment, even so I do.

That passage in Ezekiel really perked me up and lifted my spirits because it gave
me a light at the end of the tunnel whereas before then, I had none.
_