A Question for the Calvinist

[Arial]

They were Vessels Unconditionally fitted for Wrath and Destruction, yes; thanks for the admission. But Jesus Christ in his Humanity longed to gather them under his Wings; and he is God. This desire wasn't a Sin, and had to be his Hypostatic desire...

You agree they are Reprobates. The Lord God Jesus Christ wanted to gather even them...

Isn't it the Truth that it was the Will of the Logos of God to Save these Reprobates?

That would imply that God longed for something that he could not have. And that the will of the reprobate was more powerful than his will.

 

[ReverendRV]

That would imply that God longed for something that he could not have. And that the will of the reprobate was more powerful than his will.

Jesus, the son of Mary, longed for it...

The Parable of the Fig Tree; the Landlord longed for the Fig Tree be cut down and Burned. But the Gardener longed to Dung the Tree for a year. God got what he longed for; to Dung the Tree. God didn't get what he longed for; he longed for fruit, he longed for the tree to be cut and burned...

The Reprobate are not more powerful than God...

 

[Carbon]

This is why both sides have some truth...

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

But I have to ask which truth the other side, Provisionist or Arminian, has here? Which truth are you referring to? Any in particular you would point out?

What I see here is, God's will cannot be an imperfect will of desire only, which is a token of infirmity - But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Psalm 115:3. And His decree is immutable and can suffer no opposition.

So, I think we need to understand and see all this as men's argument of their condemnation and their rebellion. In God's secret will, many things are done to try man's wickedness or to some other ends.

Edit} So, free will has nothing to do with this passage. Perhaps a provisionist could come up with something, heretics dont have much issue with false teachings and doctrines.

 

[makesends]

This is why both sides have some truth...

Not to imply any disrespect, but you sound here like all sides are probably equally valid.

 

[Carbon]

But I have to ask which truth the other side, Provisionist or Arminian, has here? Which truth are you referring to? Any in particular you would point out?

@ReverendRV

Is it safe to say you changed your mind?

 

[ReverendRV]

Not to imply any disrespect, but you sound here like all sides are probably equally valid.

No, they are not equal at all...

 

[ReverendRV]

@ReverendRV

Is it safe to say you changed your mind?

Nah, I'll never change. I hold to the Doctrines of Grace and the 5-Solas. I always will...

But we can hold to this, and to the Universal Promise of Redemption to anyone who Savingly Believes. If the Reprobate Believes, Jesus would have to Save them...

 

[Carbon]

Nah, I'll never change. I hold to the Doctrines of Grace and the 5-Solas. I always will...

I do as well.

But we can hold to this, and to the Universal Promise of Redemption to anyone who Savingly Believes. If the Reprobate Believes, Jesus would have to Save them...

Here is where I believe you are confused, brother. Well, either you are confused or I am.

A reprobate was a reprobate since before the creation of the world, since the COR . Therefore, a reprobate will never believe.

So, please take no offence, but I do not believe you understand the doctrines of grace thoroughly enough to hold to them.

 

[ReverendRV]

I do as well.

Here is where I believe you are confused, brother. Well, either you are confused or I am.

A reprobate was a reprobate since before the creation of the world, since the COR . Therefore, a reprobate will never believe.

So, please take no offence, but I do not believe you understand the doctrines of grace thoroughly enough to hold to them.

A Reprobate will never be Saved. Please remember I'm a 5-Point Calvinist. But Jesus said if the Trodden Soil (Reprobate) Believes, he would have to heal (Save) it...

Even the Reprobate could be Saved by the New Covenant...

 

[makesends]

Nah, I'll never change. I hold to the Doctrines of Grace and the 5-Solas. I always will...

But we can hold to this, and to the Universal Promise of Redemption to anyone who Savingly Believes. If the Reprobate Believes, Jesus would have to Save them...

Of course! But that is not the same thing as what others mean by compatibilism

 

[Carbon]

A Reprobate will never be Saved. Please remember I'm a 5-Point Calvinist.

I know.

But Jesus said if the Trodden Soil (Reprobate) Believes, he would have to heal (Save) it...

Please show me where Jesus teaches this.

Even the Reprobate could be Saved by the New Covenant...

All those saved were saved by Jesus, it's finished. Jesus knew his sheep, and he laid down his life for his sheep. None else. You being a 5-pointer should know this.

 

[Carbon]

If the Reprobate Believes, Jesus would have to Save them...

This makes it sound like man is sovereign in salvation, so if he decides one day to believe, "he gets saved!" I say that's nonsense.

 

[Carbon]

Even the Reprobate could be Saved by the New Covenant...

I disagree.

 

[ReverendRV]

I know.

Please show me where Jesus teaches this.


All those saved were saved by Jesus, it's finished. Jesus knew his sheep, and he laid down his life for his sheep. None else. You being a 5-pointer should know this.

Luke 8:12 NIV; Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

This speaks about the Reprobate...

 

[Carbon]

Luke 8:12 NIV; Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

This speaks about the Reprobate...

Those along the path are the ones who hear. Isn't it all of them who hear?


Have you considered the ones in verse 13? Those on the rocky soil are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and yet these do not have a firm root they believe for a while, and in a time of temptation they fall away.

Or, those in verse 14? The seed that fell among thorns? These hear also, but worries, pleasures, and such choke them out. So they bring no fruit to maturity.


It's only those in verse 15, But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word with a good and virtuous heart, and hold it firmly, and produce fruit with perseverance.

All these areas where the seed fell had issues with the seed producing. Except for the good soil, of course. Even in this case, you seem to be trying to present "free will," which does not work; if it were the case, the devil is not letting them use their free will. Also, if you make this the devil's decision, you strip God of His power and give it to the devil. We do, however, know it's a fact that the devil will do his best to hinder or remove the gospel, but we also know there is nothing he can do about Christ saving one of his elect. We also know that a lost sinner must hear the word and believe for salvation. Do you see anywhere in Scripture where Satan can stop Christ from saving his sheep?


The seed planted in the good soil (where the sower was actually going to plant), why isn't the devil messing around there? Because this really has nothing to do with him, he is God's pawn, taking care of the things he is appointed to, nothing more.


EDIT} Properly speaking, therefore, there is no cause of God's will.
-William Ames.

 

[ReverendRV]

Those along the path are the ones who hear. Isn't it all of them who hear?


Have you considered the ones in verse 13? Those on the rocky soil are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and yet these do not have a firm root they believe for a while, and in a time of temptation they fall away.

Or, those in verse 14? The seed that fell among thorns? These hear also, but worries, pleasures, and such choke them out. So they bring no fruit to maturity.


It's only those in verse 15, But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word with a good and virtuous heart, and hold it firmly, and produce fruit with perseverance.

All these areas where the seed fell had issues with the seed producing. Except for the good soil, of course. Even in this case, you seem to be trying to present "free will," which does not work; if it were the case, the devil is not letting them use their free will. Also, if you make this the devil's decision, you strip God of His power and give it to the devil. We do, however, know it's a fact that the devil will do his best to hinder or remove the gospel, but we also know there is nothing he can do about Christ saving one of his elect. We also know that a lost sinner must hear the word and believe for salvation. Do you see anywhere in Scripture where Satan can stop Christ from saving his sheep?


The seed planted in the good soil (where the sower was actually going to plant), why isn't the devil messing around there? Because this really has nothing to do with him, he is God's pawn, taking care of the things he is appointed to, nothing more.


EDIT} Properly speaking, therefore, there is no cause of God's will.
-William Ames.

The Rocky, Weedy and Trodden Soils are Reprobates...

 

[brightfame52]

They were Vessels Unconditionally fitted for Wrath and Destruction, yes; thanks for the admission. But Jesus Christ in his Humanity longed to gather them under his Wings; and he is God. This desire wasn't a Sin, and had to be his Hypostatic desire...

You agree they are Reprobates. The Lord God Jesus Christ wanted to gather even them...

Isn't it the Truth that it was the Will of the Logos of God to Save these Reprobates?

Jesus in His humanity didn't have any compassion for the seed of the serpent in salvation affairs. Thats who the reprobate are, does this sound like compassion ? Matt 23:31-33

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

The words " fill ye up the measure of your faithers" in the greek its an imperative command, Jesus is hastening on their eternal destruction and causing them to continue in the hate they have toward God and His Servants. They are to accumulate more guilt.

 

[ReverendRV]

Jesus in His humanity didn't have any compassion for the seed of the serpent in salvation affairs. Thats who the reprobate are,

Sigh...

This is why you remain Hyper...

 

[brightfame52]

Sigh...

This is why you remain Hyper...

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

The words " fill ye up the measure of your faithers" in the greek its an imperative command, Jesus is hastening on their eternal destruction and causing them to continue in the hate they have toward God and His Servants. They are to accumulate more guilt.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Luke 8:12 NIV; Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

This speaks about the Reprobate...

All but the good soil speaks of the reprobate yes?

I have thought sometimes a person can be more than one type of ground, or maybe some just need more watering, applied at different stages of life is the better way to think of it.

What someone may have once told a person might not make the same sense at one life stage than it will another. God's people will always find their way home though, because God does actually will it.