A God who is unable to to get what He desires to get, is nothing but impotent and no God at all.

[Manfred]

Because all will be drawn to Christ at some point in their lives (John 12:32).

You create a contradiction, but ignore that it is there.
All are all people groups or every individual?

Why it cannot be every individual:
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus states that all drawn will be raised on the last day.

Closet universalism, but it will be denied.

 

[Manfred]

Since you read nothing with understanding, we're done.

I apologize for not understanding:

Bob: "When I went to Houston in 1963, I'm sure HE had an "influence" in that FREE WILL decision. When you see God's hand in a few things, pretty soon, you can see HIS HAND in just about everything."

What does having an influence in a free will decision mean?

 

[atpollard]

What does having an influence in a free will decision mean?

Semi-sovereign ... the GOD equivalent of "a little bit pregnant".

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I apologize for not understanding:

What does having an influence in a free will decision mean?

Free will decisions ARE ALWAYS the result of many influences, prevailing situations, available finances, personal experience, personal desires, future concerns, personal security, hunger, hobbies, employment, and the list goes on.

Since you already KNOW what goes into YOUR "Free will decisions", why ask me???

 

[justbyfaith]

You create a contradiction, but ignore that it is there.
All are all people groups or every individual?

Why it cannot be every individual:
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus states that all drawn will be raised on the last day.

Closet universalism, but it will be denied.

There is not only a resurrection unto life; there is also a resurrection unto damnation (John 5:29, Daniel 12:2).

Some drawn will make the decision to reject Christ; and as the result will be raised to a resurrection of condemnation.

 

[justbyfaith]

You create a contradiction, but ignore that it is there.
All are all people groups or every individual?

Why it cannot be every individual:
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus states that all drawn will be raised on the last day.

Closet universalism, but it will be denied.

In John 6:44 what it does not say is that everyone will come to Jesus who is drawn by the Father.

It teaches that we cannot come to Jesus apart from the drawing of the Father. This does not mean that the drawing of the Father guarantees salvation; only that salvation is impossible without it.

Everyone on the planet has a valid opportunity to receive Christ in which they are drawn by the Father to Christ (John 12:32) and therefore are able to receive Christ in that opportunity.

It becomes their choice because it is the Holy Spirit who is drawing them and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17).

So, the Holy Spirit is going to give them freedom to make a choice and is not going to force them to receive Christ in drawing them.

God the Holy Spirit is all about liberty (2 Corinthians 3:17).

 

[Manfred]

Free will decisions ARE ALWAYS the result of many influences, prevailing situations, available finances, personal experience, personal desires, future concerns, personal security, hunger, hobbies, employment, and the list goes on.

Since you already KNOW what goes into YOUR "Free will decisions", why ask me???

But Bob, what about those who have had influences into Islam, Buddhism etc. all their lives and are convicted in a moment by the Holy Spirit and converted.

Their will, was never to be a born again Christian.
Take Paul as an example, he was out to kill/have killed anyone who was Christian. His will was set on that goal.
How much influence did Jesus have in a moment and how much did Paul have in that moment due to his personal experiences etc.

 

[Manfred]

There is not only a resurrection unto life; there is also a resurrection unto damnation (John 5:29, Daniel 12:2).

Some drawn will make the decision to reject Christ; and as the result will be raised to a resurrection of condemnation.

Your theology therefore is that even the goats hear His voice!
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

This scripture places context into verse 44 and refutes your argument/s above.
All those drawn will come, as they will ALL be taught by God.

So verse 44 cannot refer to both the redeemed and the unredeemed as you claim.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

You are in stark contradiction with the words of Jesus.
ALL who the Father give WILL come. ALL who the Father does not give, CANNOT come.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

It is up to God and not man!

 

[justbyfaith]

Again I will say to you, that being drawn to Christ is not necessarily the same thing as being given to Christ.

Being drawn, a person is enabled to receive, believe in, and follow Christ. This does not guarantee that they will do so.

Those who receive, believe in, and follow Christ are given to Christ.

All who are given were at one time drawn; but not all who are drawn are necessarily given.

Practical application: If you believe that you are saved because at one point you have had warm feelings about Christ, you are self-deceived.

In order to be saved, you must do something.

The things that must be done are set forth to us in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39.

Now read those passages and see if they do not tell you that you must do certain things in order to procure salvation.

You cannot do any of those things unless you are drawn to Christ; however, being drawn to Christ does not guarantee that you will do what it takes to procure salvation.


If it is up to God and not to man, then the verse you quoted immediately before saying that is null and void.

Whoever comes to Christ, He will by no means cast out.

This indicates that God will not reject a man who comes to Christ over some predetermined decision by Him that they are not of the elect.

This also nullifies the choice of God in this matter; since if a person decides to come to Christ, it is impossible that He would reject them.

Now, it is said in response to this, that a person who is not of the elect, will not come to Christ.

So, does God prevent them from coming to Christ, based on His predetermined decision not to elect them?

Does God close the door of salvation on them, although they may desire to receive, believe in, and follow Christ; because they are simply not chosen by Him (are not of the elect)?

Then, and only then, can the choice be all of God and none of man.

But it presents a problem for the Calvinist; because then He is contradicting John 6:37.

For he is teaching that Christ casts out the one who comes to Him but is not of the elect.

To which the response is, that those who are not of the elect will not come to Him.

But I say, why not?

Is it not the reality of Calvinism that they will not come because God didn't choose them?

So, God has closed the door of salvation on them.

I just want to make sure that everyone knows that if anyone comes to Christ in repentance, He will in no wise cast them out; so the door of salvation is not closed on those who come to Christ.

It has been posited that if you want to know that you are of the elect, then choose Christ; and you will find that you are of the elect.

But this has been rejected by some Calvinists.

It is to them that I say, that if anyone chooses to come to Christ, He will in no wise cast them away.

If the choice is all of God and none of man, then this cannot be true, since a man procures salvation by choosing Christ; and God will in no wise cast him out. And therefore, a man will not be rejected because of some predetermined choice of God to make him of the non-elect.

And if that be the case, then the choice is not entirely up to God.

Because it should be clear that every man is drawn to Christ at some point within his lifetime (John 12:32).

This clearly means that the choice is up to man.

Because every man, at some point, is enabled to believe in, receive, and follow Christ (John 12:32, John 6:44).

And yet, not every man will do so.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your theology therefore is that even the goats hear His voice!

Are there goats even in the grave?

Jhn 5:28, Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Beginning at chapter 2 does nothing towards understanding the context of what Paul is saying in his letter to Timothy as a whole. And the whole context of his two letters references the Jewishness of the New Covenant Church in the time before the destruction of their Temple which very soon after ushered in an era which we now live since then called the Times of the Gentiles, which time God saves Gentiles without covenant.

Since the founding of the New Covenant Church by Jews during the Feast of Harvests in Jerusalem and the time of Saul/Paul's letter to Timothy - a Gentile - the issue most addressed by Jewish Christians was what effect the coming of Israel's Messiah had upon the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants. There was no instruction book to guide them except the First Covenant Scriptures of the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets.
Thus, the context of Paul's words:

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim. 2:3–4

...is not speaking of all men everywhere but all men within the confines of the election of God within the New Covenant God made with the House of Israel (Northern Kingdom), and the House of Judah (Southern Kingdom.)

Although Paul does not say so in this letter, Paul was a believer in the election of God with regard to God's covenants with the Abrahamic seed (descendants)...

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) Rom. 9:11.

...and addresses the "all men" as everyone God elects to salvation within covenant.

PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
and the only doctrine they knew and Paul taught is directly tied to the First Covenant Scriptures, the only doctrine Paul knew as Pharisee and as being a Jewish Christian tied to the covenants of God.

4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1 Tim. 1:1–10.

The "sound doctrine" was not made up but connected to the Law of Moses except now with and through the Presence of the Holy Spirit who IS the Law Personified has now an application of "spirit of the law" which was once "letter of the Law." There is no doubt that those who "desired to be teachers of the Law" were those that did not fully understand what they were saying nor what they affirmed." Yet the Law, which is spiritual, was being taught by Paul but in a new living way.

The will of God in this instance are those "all men" that are in covenant with God and shall be saved by God. And the will of God shall accomplish that which it is sent to do without fail:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
It shall not return unto me void,
But it shall accomplish that which I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Isaiah 55:11.

Again, without fail.
God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thus, the context of Paul's words:

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim. 2:3–4

...is not speaking of all men everywhere but all men within the confines of the election of God within the New Covenant God made with the House of Israel (Northern Kingdom), and the House of Judah (Southern Kingdom.)

It is speaking of all men everywhere (without exception).

Not all men without distinction.

For, God is love (1 John 4:8,16).

Give scripture that substantiates your interpretation.

 

[Manfred]

Are there goats even in the grave?

Jhn 5:28, Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It seems that context does not matter to you!
Mat_25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat_25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

This is at judgement.

Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

This is pre judgment.

You know what the goats will hear at judgement:
Mat_7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Your Theology contradicts Jesus.
You claim all are drawn and learn from God. That He "knows" all.

Scripture proves you wrong.

 

[justbyfaith]

It seems that context does not matter to you!
Mat_25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat_25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

This is at judgement.

Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

This is pre judgment.

You know what the goats will hear at judgement:
Mat_7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Your Theology contradicts Jesus.
You claim all are drawn and learn from God. That He "knows" all.

Scripture proves you wrong.

Where does Jesus say that goats can never hear His voice?

John 10:27 merely says that if you are one of His sheep, you will definitely hear His voice (in the sense of you having a relationship with Him).

And scripture tells us plainly, in John 12:32, that all are drawn.

 

[makesends]

So, does God prevent them from coming to Christ, based on His predetermined decision not to elect them?

Does God close the door of salvation on them, although they may desire to receive, believe in, and follow Christ; because they are simply not chosen by Him (are not of the elect)?

Their desire is of the flesh. It is not by the Spirit of God. Romans 8.

Then, and only then, can the choice be all of God and none of man.

But it presents a problem for the Calvinist; because then He is contradicting John 6:37.

For he is teaching that Christ casts out the one who comes to Him but is not of the elect

No. He only thinks he is coming to Christ. Consider the difference between compliance and obedience. It is like that with the one who thinks he is coming to Christ, but only in the flesh. Time will show him the weakness and ignorance of his own decision. Only the Spirit of God can generate salvific faith.

To which the response is, that those who are not of the elect will not come to Him.

But I say, why not?

Why not? Because they hate him.

 

[justbyfaith]

Their desire is of the flesh. It is not by the Spirit of God. Romans 8.

So, you are saying that God closes the door of salvation on them.

No. He only thinks he is coming to Christ. Consider the difference between compliance and obedience. It is like that with the one who thinks he is coming to Christ, but only in the flesh. Time will show him the weakness and ignorance of his own decision. Only the Spirit of God can generate salvific faith.

Yes, salvific faith is produced by the Spirit, as the person is drawn to Christ (where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom, 2 Corinthians 3:17) he is given a choice.

Why not? Because they hate him.

We love God because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

If God didn't love certain people enough to give them an opportunity to be saved, they would rightfully hate Him in my opinion.

For He would be saying to them that, you are not of the elect, and therefore I have chosen this fate for you, that you will fry for ever with everlasting burnings.

I love the Lord because He saved me from that fate.

If I believed in Calvinism, I wouldn't have as much assurance that I have been saved.

There would always be the doubt factor, that, maybe I am not of the elect, and that therefore even though I did what it takes to procure salvation, it was not enough.

The thief cometh not but for to steal, to kill, and to destroy; Jesus came that we might have life and that more abundantly (John 10:10).

The doctrine of Calvinism has the potential of stealing away my love for God if I were to believe in it.

 

[justbyfaith]

But I say, why not?

Is it not the reality of Calvinism that they will not come because God didn't choose them?

So, God has closed the door of salvation on them.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

But Bob, what about those who have had influences into Islam, Buddhism etc. all their lives and are convicted in a moment by the Holy Spirit and converted.

The Holy Spirit is an "Influence" that instantly reveals to a person their TRUE STATUS before God. so no problem at all, It doesn't matter whether one is an American Indian, a Muslim, or an Atheist/Agnostic. it's all the same. Truth comes and blows away error. and the CHOICE IS STILL YOURS.

Their will, was never to be a born again Christian.

NOBODY'S will is to be a "Born again Christian" until the lights come on, and they can SEE.

Take Paul as an example, he was out to kill/have killed anyone who was Christian. His will was set on that goal.
How much influence did Jesus have in a moment and how much did Paul have in that moment due to his personal experiences etc.

Chuckle!!! You forget that Jesus referred to the "pricks" that Paul had been resisting (kicking against).

 

[justbyfaith]

So, you are saying that God closes the door of salvation on them.

They seek to come to Christ but He casts them out, contrary to Christ's promise in John 6:37.

 

[jeremiah1five]

It is speaking of all men everywhere (without exception).
Not all men without distinction.

Yes, I know that. But Paul isn't. His letters are in context to the phenomenon of the New Covenant and the advent of the Holy Spirit that applies the New Covenant to God's elect and in his mind the only Scripture he has in which to interpret the New Covenant is the Old Covenant. It is still the Old Covenant but what's new is the Holy Spirit and God putting HIM (the Law) in our - or should I say - Israel's inward parts, since it is a covenant with the House of Israel and not with Gentiles - no matter how much Gentiles try to insert/inject/ and put themselves in the New Covenant through Abraham. God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles, nor the seed of any Gentile, and Gentiles do not come out of Abraham's loins.

For, God is love (1 John 4:8,16).

Yes, God loves His covenant people, Bride, and Church Israel.
Salvation is of the Jews. Salvation is definitely NOT of the Gentiles. Won't find a Scripture stating that as clearly as Scripture states "Salvation is of the Jews."

Salvation is of the LORD. There are many instances in Scripture showing that if Gd is not the first to make a move towards someone for the purposes of salvation then that person will not be saved. Every person in Scripture that had a positive relationship with God it was God that did the calling, not the person. Paul says, "men do not seek God." Jesus said, "men love darkness rather than light [Christ] NEITHER COME to the light." Men are in bondage to sin and love darkness and sin, hate the light. If God loves 'you' God will save 'you.' If God doesn't love 'you' God will not save 'you.' Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of Jewish promises, covenants, and prophecies given to Israel and Israel is His Bride. Christ died for His Bride and Church who is Israel (Eph. 5:25.)
But if you practice and believe Replacement Theology in any form, then you'll believe the Gentile Church has replaced Israel and all that Israel once possessed with YHWH now belongs to Gentiles then you'd be wrong. God is using Gentiles to make Israel His Bride jealous. How does it feel to be used? One day, when the Times of the Gentiles ends - and it WILL end - God turns His full attention back to Israel and you'll never look at salvation the same ever again. Just like God rejected Israel and began saving Gentiles without a covenant it just might work in reverse in which God rejects Gentiles and returns to His First Love: Israel.

Tell me, do you accept this:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.

He was sent to the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel. Take note. He was not sent to Gentiles.

Give scripture that substantiates your interpretation.

I did. In number #71.