A God who is unable to to get what He desires to get, is nothing but impotent and no God at all.

[justbyfaith]

Just to be clear, Ephesians 5:14 says,

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

And therefore my premise, that we choose to be made alive, is valid.

The one who is sleeping is commanded to arise from the dead!

So clearly, in being drawn to Christ, he is enabled to arise from the dead.

 

[atpollard]

... and it is a DARN good thing that Paul wrote Ephesians 5:14 in a complete vacuum - without any verses around it that might lend context to the First Century Hymn that he was quoting - otherwise we might see what subject Paul was REALLY talking about [and it was not SOTIERIOLOGY].

 

[justbyfaith]

... and it is a DARN good thing that Paul wrote Ephesians 5:14 in a complete vacuum - without any verses around it that might lend context to the First Century Hymn that he was quoting - otherwise we might see what subject Paul was REALLY talking about [and it was not SOTIERIOLOGY].

So you say.

I am not inclined to believe you.

 

[justbyfaith]

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/a-proposition-calvinistic-or-no.1196/

 

[jeremiah1five]

So, those who are fellowheirs, and in the same body as the Jews are not partakers of the Jewish covenant?

The New Covenant as with all the covenants beginning with Abraham and Moses and David, etc., is with the Hebrews/Jews.
There is nothing in the Law, Psalms, and prophets i.e. Jewish Scriptures of God making covenant with Gentiles.

 

[justbyfaith]

The New Covenant as with all the covenants beginning with Abraham and Moses and David, etc., is with the Hebrews/Jews.
There is nothing in the Law, Psalms, and prophets i.e. Jewish Scriptures of God making covenant with Gentiles.

I believe that you are wrong and do not understand the plain meaning of Ephesians 3:6; which teaches us that Gentiles are partakers of the New Covenant.

Now, it may not use the word "covenant" to describe this relationship;

But it clearly teaches that Gentiles are partakers with the Jews of the benefits of what Christ has done for us (which is the New Covenant).

 

[jeremiah1five]

I believe that you are wrong and do not understand the plain meaning of Ephesians 3:6; which teaches us that Gentiles are partakers of the New Covenant.

Now, it may not use the word "covenant" to describe this relationship;

But it clearly teaches that Gentiles are partakers with the Jews of the benefits of what Christ has done for us (which is the New Covenant).

Saul can give all the commentary he wants about Messiah's effect on the Judaic religion in his epistles to fellow Jewish Christians at Ephesus.
But that is only discussing.
What really matters is the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets.
And there is no covenant anywhere in these Scriptures of God making covenant with Gentiles.
None.
Even God knows He's made no covenant with Gentiles.
At the Marriage Supper Israel is there through Covenant.
Gentiles are there through invitation (Matt. 22.)
And there is no mention of Gentiles in the Jeremian Covenant of 31:31-34.
None.
Jesus is a Jewish Messiah sent to the House of Israel. The New Covenant is Jewish through and through. Gentiles elbowing their way into a Jewish Covenant when they are not mentioned is dishonest. God made no covenant with Gentiles and the mere discussion by Saul in 3:6 does not make it true.
Saul is mistaken and like Peter choosing Matthias to replace Judas is in error.
I know when it was time to make the canon that certain men of God didn't accdept Romans or Ephesians to put in the canon. Now I am beginning to understand some of their reasons.
Martin Luther didn't think Peter's writings should be included. I'm working on Athanasius right now. Interesting.

 

[justbyfaith]

Eph 3:6, That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

May the Lord help you to see what you are not currently seeing.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Eph 3:6, That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

May the Lord help you to see what you are not currently seeing.

Talking about Gentiles and the New Covenant does not mean Gentiles are part of the New Covenant.
There is NOTHING in Jeremiah's prophecy that includes Gentiles.
Maybe this is the delusion God said He was going to send upon the world in the latter days.
Guess what?
Since Pentecost we have been in the latter days.

 

[justbyfaith]

Talking about Gentiles and the New Covenant does not mean Gentiles are part of the New Covenant.
There is NOTHING in Jeremiah's prophecy that includes Gentiles.
Maybe this is the delusion God said He was going to send upon the world in the latter days.
Guess what?
Since Pentecost we have been in the latter days.

No, friend, you are way out in left field.

Ephesians 3:6 clearly tells us that Gentiles are fellowheirs with Jews.

How, then, are they not partakers of the New Covenant?

Clearly, Paul says that this is a revelation given to God's apostles.

The delusion that God sends on the whole world will be because they believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[jeremiah1five]

No, friend, you are way out in left field.

Ephesians 3:6 clearly tells us that Gentiles are fellowheirs with Jews.

How, then, are they not partakers of the New Covenant?

Clearly, Paul says that this is a revelation given to God's apostles.

The delusion that God sends on the whole world will be because they believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Just because the first Jewish Christians discuss the New Covenant in their writings there is no covenant God makes with Gentiles. The key Scriptures are where the original Covenant is mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and there are no Gentiles named or mentioned in this Covenant God made with the House of Israel. IF God wanted to have Gentiles in the New Covenant He would have said so right when the prophecy came forward.

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Eph 3:6.

There is no mention of Covenant nor is Saul initiating or starting a new covenant in these words.
Saul is doing what everyone who had interest in Israel in what God was doing and searched the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets to understand this New Covenant, and although Saul says that Gentiles should be fellowheirs and of the same body, and partakers of his promise IN CHRIST, merely discussing this does not make it a covenant. And the subject has to do with "IN CHRIST" which is not saying they are fellowheirs in the New Covenant, for IF God had wanted to make covenant with Gentiles or include Gentiles in the New Covenant God made with the House of Israel, He would have said so through Jeremiah. But He hasn't and He didn't. The New Covenant God made is with the House of Israel. The Messiah is a Jewish Messiah Promised by God TO and FOR the House of Israel, and there are no Gentiles in the New Covenant. God is saving Gentiles WITHOUT covenant.
But seeing that everyone wants to use Saul's words to prove a new covenant now with Gentiles, then what do we do with the New Covenant God made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah? There can't be two covenants. No, there is not. There is only one Covenant and the one that's in existence today is called the New Covenant and Jeremiah describes it in his book, and there are no Gentiles mentioned or named in this Covenant. The Times of the Gentiles exists for one main purpose and that is to bring in Gentiles and to make Israel His Bride jealous. And when this Age is over - and it will come to an end - God turns His full attention back on Israel and He will bring in the New Covenant He made with the House of Israel and pick up where He left off and that was when He sent the Romans to destroy their Temple. Blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the Times of the Gentiles be come in (end.) And then ALL Israel shall be saved. It doesn't say they will come to accept Jesus bar Joseph as their Messiah but merely that ALL Israel shall be saved.
And when God does turn His attention back on Israel guess who's going to get jealous and turn against Israel?
The Gentile Church.
The two prophets will not only use the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets to lead and teach Israel that Jesus is their Messiah, but they will also prophesy against the Gentile Church and clear up all this misunderstanding and PROVE God made no covenant with Gentiles and this is going to have such a profound effect upon them that they will literally do what Saul did to the Jewish Church before his conversion.
The Gentile Church will come against Israel who holds all the covenants, and the promises and:

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: 1 Timothy 1:13.

Three stages.
First, they will blaspheme Israel.
Then it will become more overt, and they will persecute Israel.
Finally, they will actually lay hands on Israel and become injurious against Israel.
When Christ returns as according to Law, Psalms, and Prophecy the first thing He will do is to subdue the Gentile Church for they are out of control.
The two Jewish prophets God sends to Israel will clear up this 'Gentiles are in the New Covenant' misunderstanding and when they tell the Gentile Christians they were never part of the New Covenant, the same I am doing today, they will not like it nor the two prophets who tell them and will take part in killing them.
Then they will send gifts to one another like it's Christ-mass.

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom. 9:4–5.

Since the destruction of the Jewish Temple the Gentile Christians had it wrong all this time.
But Christ is going to clear it all up.

 

[makesends]

So, you are saying that God closes the door of salvation on them.

Figure of speech. Can you show me "the door of salvation", in Scripture? I could just as easily say that "the door" was never even open to them. You only thought it was.

Yes, salvific faith is produced by the Spirit, as the person is drawn to Christ (where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom, 2 Corinthians 3:17) he is given a choice.


We love God because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

If God didn't love certain people enough to give them an opportunity to be saved, they would rightfully hate Him in my opinion.

Good thing it is only an opinion!

I find a curious irony here, that the self-determinist insists on a willed returned love by creatures at enmity with God, in response to the supposed 'loving offer' of God, when, it is rather obvious in Scripture that they WILL not to respond in love: Here we have, by their own choice, creatures that WILL NOT TO RESPOND to God's 'loving offer', (per your use of 1 John 4:19), and you even claim that they are right to Hate him if he did not love them enough to save them, but you completely neglect that HE would be right to not save THEM if they hate him!

For He would be saying to them that, you are not of the elect, and therefore I have chosen this fate for you, that you will fry for ever with everlasting burnings.

I love the Lord because He saved me from that fate.

If I believed in Calvinism, I wouldn't have as much assurance that I have been saved.

There would always be the doubt factor, that, maybe I am not of the elect, and that therefore even though I did what it takes to procure salvation, it was not enough.

There's your fallacy. YOU PROCURED SALVATION. You have whereof to boast then. Good luck with that.

The thief cometh not but for to steal, to kill, and to destroy; Jesus came that we might have life and that more abundantly (John 10:10).

The doctrine of Calvinism has the potential of stealing away my love for God if I were to believe in it.

Frankly, you have no idea.

 

[Reformedguy]

Ephesians 5:14.

Umm....that's not what it says,at all.

 

[makesends]

Umm....that's not what it says,at all.

Right you are! Interesting to me how the self-determining sees, "Awake, O sleeper", as motivation to wake oneself up, instead of God waking one up.

They would have been surprised in boot camp to find Reveille waking them up, rather than merely to suggest that they wake up.

 

[QVQ]

and you even claim that they are right to Hate him if he did not love them enough to save them,

There is an interesting question.
A person can say "because because because" is why I love, hate or don't believe in God. But I don't think the "because" matters.
The love of God is a gift from God that God instills in a person, not by a person's choice or because of anything except God.

If a person were absolutely certain that God did not love them, then would that person hate God?

I had a moment of doubt when I went blind a few years ago. For brief time, the first few hours, I was certain God hated me for I was sore afflicted. I enlarged that litany of woe, cataloguing all the ills of my life and pouring ashes on my head, bemoaning my sins as I was not worthy. It was a bitter time.
However, I still loved God. I was amazed by blindness as I was amazed at sight. It was an adventure, in a crazy sort of way. I realized that I would need God's help more than ever and He would be with me in that darkness as He had always been in the light. And after a time my sight was restored.

It is the lesson of Job in a way. "Blessed be the name of the Lord."
It was that thought that carried me through those times.

Not "Does God love me?" but in my hour of darkness and despair "Do I love God?"

Could I have hated God? No. As Job did not curse God. It was a joke on the devil if a person cannot, rather than will not curse God.
Nothing can change the way I feel about God. It is the will of God that I love God as I cannot will myself to do other than love God whatever trials or tribulations, here or in the hereafter.