A God who is unable to to get what He desires to get, is nothing but impotent and no God at all.

[Bob Carabbio]

If the "allowing" implies non-causation, then it does negate omnipotence. They are mutually exclusive.

BIG WORDS!!! No meaning.

 

[atpollard]

BIG WORDS!!! No meaning.

1 Corinthians 14:10 [CSB]
There are doubtless many different kinds of languages in the world, none is without meaning.

 

[Manfred]

Exactly like God allowing US within limits to do something is non negating His Omnipotence in any way or means.

What are the limits for us Bob?

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Do you see the limits there

What are the limits put on Satan Bob?
2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Do you see that God is still in control?
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

 

[justbyfaith]

The reality is that our God is all about freedom.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (freedom)...2 Corinthians 3:17.

So, when it comes to man's salvation, He doesn't force people to receive Him.

He gives them a choice in the matter; especially when the Holy Spirit is present and drawing a person to Christ.

 

[makesends]

The reality is that our God is all about freedom.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (freedom)...2 Corinthians 3:17.

So, when it comes to man's salvation, He doesn't force people to receive Him.

He gives them a choice in the matter; especially when the Holy Spirit is present and drawing a person to Christ.

Who says he forces anyone to receive him? Would you call it force if someone gave you life-saving resuscitation?

Describing God's regeneration, the gift of LIFE, by the word, "force", is like the difference between the servant who said to his master, "I knew you were a hard man..." vs Jonah, saying, "I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity."

 

[Manfred]

The reality is that our God is all about freedom.

Freedom for whom?

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (freedom)...2 Corinthians 3:17.

Id the Spirit of the Lord in every man?

So, when it comes to man's salvation, He doesn't force people to receive Him.

Why would you think He has to force those who He calls His sheep?

He gives them a choice in the matter; especially when the Holy Spirit is present and drawing a person to Christ.

Read your words carefully.

Is the Holy Spirit unable in some instances to draw people successfully. Does He fail at His task of drawing!
Now are there instances when the Holy Spirit is not drawing, or not "present" as you stated?
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

You seem to hold to a belief that not all those the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to Him. Is it your theology that some of those whom the Father gives to Jesus will choose not to come?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What are the limits for us Bob?

People's "limits" are individual. God HAS A PURPOSE, and a PLAN for the age, which is on Schedule, and in Budget. It always has been, and will remain so till the end of the age. Man's "limits" obviously fall in the realm of anything that could derail God's plan. And YES!!!! He applies "steering influence" in our lives.

When I went to Houston in 1963, I'm sure HE had an "influence" in that FREE WILL decision. When you see God's hand in a few things, pretty soon, you can see HIS HAND in just about everything.

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God,

There's ONE limit (chuckle)

What are the limits put on Satan Bob?

Well - satan would really like to destroy humanity, but he hasn't. As in Job's time, God told satan what he COULD DO, and what he couldn't do.

Do you see that God is still in control?

Absolutely!!! And a bit later, I'll even understand of the totality of His plan, when I KNOW even as I am Known (1 cor 13:12). You will also if you're Born Again.

 

[justbyfaith]

Freedom for whom?

Id the Spirit of the Lord in every man?

Why would you think He has to force those who He calls His sheep?

Read your words carefully.

Is the Holy Spirit unable in some instances to draw people successfully. Does He fail at His task of drawing!
Now are there instances when the Holy Spirit is not drawing, or not "present" as you stated?
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

You seem to hold to a belief that not all those the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to Him. Is it your theology that some of those whom the Father gives to Jesus will choose not to come?

My belief is that not all those whom the Father draws to Jesus will come to Him. Being drawn is different from being given.

Being drawn means that you are enabled to receive Christ.

One is not given unless he takes that step and receives Christ.

 

[Manfred]

My belief is that not all those whom the Father draws to Jesus will come to Him. Being drawn is different from being given.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

You don't believe that all who are drawn are taught by God!
You don't believe that all who are drawn by God will be raised to life on the last day!
You don't believe that all whom the Father draws to Jesus will come....

You have to protect your sovereignty to a point of denying scripture!

 

[Manfred]

When I went to Houston in 1963, I'm sure HE had an "influence" in that FREE WILL decision. When you see God's hand in a few things, pretty soon, you can see HIS HAND in just about everything.

So His influence was at what percentage Bob?

99% Bob and 1 % God perhaps!

All glory to self!

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

You don't believe that all who are drawn are taught by God!
You don't believe that all who are drawn by God will be raised to life on the last day!
You don't believe that all whom the Father draws to Jesus will come....

You have to protect your sovereignty to a point of denying scripture!

All that scripture says is that there is a fact that a person can not come to God without His permission. John 14 shows "how" that drawing occurs.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

• God gives out His gracious call
• If people obey
• Then they will be loved by God
• and God will manifest Himself to them
• If they disobey they remain blind

There is clearly a human "obedience" element to receiving God's love.

 

[atpollard]

All that scripture says is that there is a fact that a person can not come to God without His permission. John 14 shows "how" that drawing occurs.

John 6:44b states that all of "him" who the Father draws, the Son WILL RAISE on the last day. That is the same message as John 6:39 - "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

 

[makesends]

All that scripture says is that there is a fact that a person can not come to God without His permission. John 14 shows "how" that drawing occurs.

Whoa there. What? Are you saying free will does not reign after all? There is a situation where one that wants to come to God cannot come to God?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So His influence was at what percentage Bob?

99% Bob and 1 % God perhaps!

All glory to self!

Since you read nothing with understanding, we're done.

 

[Soyeong]

Zeus has no attributes at all. They have nothing in common. God is the One true living God. Zeus is nothing but a figment of the imagination.

"Zeus" has existence as a concept, but not an actuality while the God of Israel has existence as both a concept and an actuality, though the concepts can be compared and contrasted.

 

[makesends]

"Zeus" has existence as a concept, but not an actuality while the God of Israel has existence as both a concept and an actuality, though the concepts can be compared and contrasted.

The concept of neither is anywhere near the actuality of the one.

 

[justbyfaith]

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

You don't believe that all who are drawn are taught by God!
You don't believe that all who are drawn by God will be raised to life on the last day!
You don't believe that all whom the Father draws to Jesus will come....

You have to protect your sovereignty to a point of denying scripture!

I believe in man's responsibility which is denied by Calvinism.

In John 6:44, no one can come to Christ unless they are drawn. This does not mean that all who are drawn will come to Christ.

If that were the case, the doctrine would be Universalism (heresy).

Because all will be drawn to Christ at some point in their lives (John 12:32).

And therefore, if all who are drawn are given, all are given.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Whoa there. What? Are you saying free will does not reign after all? There is a situation where one that wants to come to God cannot come to God?

Yes the one who prioritizes sin over God, can not come to God.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

2Th 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

John 6:44b states that all of "him" who the Father draws, the Son WILL RAISE on the last day. That is the same message as John 6:39 - "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

But who receives the love of the Father, who is ultimately given to the Son, and who does He ultimately raise up?

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "a) If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; b) and My Father will love him, c) and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Where is the movement of the Father in the above, when does He come? After step a) If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. Then and only then manifestation occurs.

 

[atpollard]

But who receives the love of the Father, who is ultimately given to the Son, and who does He ultimately raise up?

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "a) If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; b) and My Father will love him, c) and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Where is the movement of the Father in the above, when does He come? After step a) If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. Then and only then manifestation occurs.

Where does the LOVE come from?

• [1 John 4:19 NASB] We love, because He first loved us.

• [Ephesians 2:1-5 NASB] And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Not from the heart of unsaved man to God, but it originates in God and flows to undeserving individuals ... who are then empowered to love.
God is ALWAYS the First Cause (Prime Mover).