A God who is unable to to get what He desires to get, is nothing but impotent and no God at all.

[makesends]

So, you are saying that God closes the door of salvation on them.

There you go with the paraphrasing, again. NO, I was not saying that! Rather obviously —in fact, even if I believed in those exact terms, that God closes the door of salvation on them, that is not what I was saying. What I said may even be compatible with that, but that is not what I was saying. Why do you do that?

Yes, salvific faith is produced by the Spirit, as the person is drawn to Christ (where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom, 2 Corinthians 3:17) he is given a choice.

Where did I say he was not given a choice?

But maybe I should paraphrase what you said there to mean that God regenerates a person, before he is given the choice. You admit the faith by which one is saved, is produced by the Spirit of God, no?

We love God because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

If God didn't love certain people enough to give them an opportunity to be saved, they would rightfully hate Him in my opinion.

Just as you say: Your opinion.

But take 1 John 4:19, your own quotation: "We love him because he first loved us." It is self-determinism which thinks itself capable of understanding the true nature of love, neglecting that it NECESSARILY, in this context, referring to something of God, is beyond us. The implication, "I've got this; I know what love is.", is natural, of the flesh. But the implication that is of the Spirit of God is something more along the lines of, "God is the one doing this. Shut up, listen and watch."

For He would be saying to them that, you are not of the elect, and therefore I have chosen this fate for you, that you will fry for ever with everlasting burnings.

I love the Lord because He saved me from that fate.

If I believed in Calvinism, I wouldn't have as much assurance that I have been saved.

If I believed like you do, I would still be afraid, because I know that my decisions are fickle and emotional, self-deceiving, self-serving, self-important, ignorant, foolish, and so on.

There would always be the doubt factor, that, maybe I am not of the elect, and that therefore even though I did what it takes to procure salvation, it was not enough.

The thief cometh not but for to steal, to kill, and to destroy; Jesus came that we might have life and that more abundantly (John 10:10).

The doctrine of Calvinism has the potential of stealing away my love for God if I were to believe in it.

Perhaps if you look at the doctrines of Calvinism from your temporal, self-deterministic POV, where YOU need to be in control of your future —but let me put a bone in your craw: You already know this is not about you. But your doctrine is about you.

Allow me to contrast for a moment: GOD chose, GOD regenerated, God saved, God justified, God completed EVERYTHING he set out to do. My confidence and joy is in God; knowing he will be just and merciful, I am daily dependent on HIS mercy and love, and not on the integrity of my own decision.

Look how many people keep "receiving the Lord" all over again, because they are not sure they "did it right" the last time, or that they "really meant it", and so on!

Remember the story of David numbering the tribes, and being faced with the choices for what punishment he was to be given? His response was not this or that, but to throw himself on God's mercy. THERE is the safety, and it puts your eyes on God, and not on the value of your own heart.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, I know that. But Paul isn't. His letters are in context to the phenomenon of the New Covenant and the advent of the Holy Spirit that applies the New Covenant to God's elect and in his mind the only Scripture he has in which to interpret the New Covenant is the Old Covenant. It is still the Old Covenant but what's new is the Holy Spirit and God putting HIM (the Law) in our - or should I say - Israel's inward parts, since it is a covenant with the House of Israel and not with Gentiles - no matter how much Gentiles try to insert/inject/ and put themselves in the New Covenant through Abraham. God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles, nor the seed of any Gentile, and Gentiles do not come out of Abraham's loins.

See Ephesians 3:6; and discover that the New Covenant is for Gentiles as well as Jews.

 

[justbyfaith]

But maybe I should paraphrase what you said there to mean that God regenerates a person, before he is given the choice.

From my understanding of your doctrine, if God regenerates a person, he cannot make any other choice than to receive Him...and therefore it is not really a choice.

But there is also the drawing of the Holy Spirit; and in that, a person may be drawn and yet not receive Jesus.

 

[justbyfaith]

Look how many people keep "receiving the Lord" all over again, because they are not sure they "did it right" the last time, or that they "really meant it", and so on!

It is always good to rededicate one's life to the Lord. Justification may be constant; but that rededication may in fact be conducive to the person being sanctified all over again.

 

[jeremiah1five]

See Ephesians 3:6; and discover that the New Covenant is for Gentiles as well as Jews.

Read the original covenant description in Jeremiah 31. You'll find there are no Gentiles named in the covenant.
It says clearly, it's between God and the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, not the house of Gentiles.
Paul can write about it all he wants to Jewish Christians in his letters but there is no mention of Gentiles anywhere in Scripture that describes YHWH making covenant with Gentiles or any Gentile and his seed like He did with Abraham and his seed.
So, if you want to steal another person's or group of person's covenants and promises and prophecies go for it. In the end you will not succeed because God KNOWS He's made no covenant with Gentiles.

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom. 9:3–5.

Jesus Himself said, He [Christ] was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
The New Covenant is with the House of Israel.
The Mosaic Law is with the House of Israel.
The prophets were sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
The Temple was built to and for the House of Israel.
The writings of the New Covenant were written by Jewish Christians (Peter, James, John, Paul, etc.), to and for other Jewish Christians in Jewish Churches in Corinth, Rome, Thessalonica, Philippi, Ephesus, etc., who under the New Covenant were the House of Israel.
The New Covenant Church, which is a continuation of the "Great Congregation" of Jews that came out of Egypt and were in the desert with Moses during the time of the Tabernacle, were from the House of Israel and were the first Jews to be saved in Jerusalem during the Jewish Feasts of Harvests. 3000 Jews were saved, and 3000 Jews were first filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise that was Promised by God in covenant with the House of Israel.
Jesus was a Jew from the tribe of Judah from the House of Israel.
The Bride of Christ is betrothed to God, and they are the House of Israel.
The True Church was founded by Jews from the House of Israel.
Christ died for His Bride and Church who are the House of Israel.

And you think and believe all this God gave to the House of Israel belongs to Gentiles?
LOL

 

[justbyfaith]

Read the original covenant description in Jeremiah 31. You'll find there are no Gentiles named in the covenant.
It says clearly, it's between God and the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, not the house of Gentiles.
Paul can write about it all he wants to Jewish Christians in his letters but there is no mention of Gentiles anywhere in Scripture that describes YHWH making covenant with Gentiles or any Gentile and his seed like He did with Abraham and his seed.
So, if you want to steal another person's or group of person's covenants and promises and prophecies go for it. In the end you will not succeed because God KNOWS He's made no covenant with Gentiles.

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom. 9:3–5.

Jesus Himself said, He [Christ] was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
The New Covenant is with the House of Israel.
The Mosaic Law is with the House of Israel.
The prophets were sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
The Temple was built to and for the House of Israel.
The writings of the New Covenant were written by Jewish Christians (Peter, James, John, Paul, etc.), to and for other Jewish Christians in Jewish Churches in Corinth, Rome, Thessalonica, Philippi, Ephesus, etc., who under the New Covenant were the House of Israel.
The New Covenant Church, which is a continuation of the "Great Congregation" of Jews that came out of Egypt and were in the desert with Moses during the time of the Tabernacle, were from the House of Israel and were the first Jews to be saved in Jerusalem during the Jewish Feasts of Harvests. 3000 Jews were saved, and 3000 Jews were first filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise that was Promised by God in covenant with the House of Israel.
Jesus was a Jew from the tribe of Judah from the House of Israel.
The Bride of Christ is betrothed to God, and they are the House of Israel.
The True Church was founded by Jews from the House of Israel.
Christ died for His Bride and Church who are the House of Israel.

And you think and believe all this God gave to the House of Israel belongs to Gentiles?
LOL

Again, read Ephesians 3:6.

The New Covenant is clearly for the Gentiles according to that verse.

Whatever you may think other passages teach on the matter.

Scripture doesn't contradict scripture, so you must be misinterpreting your passages; because my verse clearly teaches that the New Covenant is for the Gentiles.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Again, read Ephesians 3:6.

The New Covenant is clearly for the Gentiles according to that verse.

Whatever you may think other passages teach on the matter.

Scripture doesn't contradict scripture, so you must be misinterpreting your passages; because my verse clearly teaches that the New Covenant is for the Gentiles.

Let's see if I am mis-interpreting Scripture:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour [member of another tribe], and every man his brother [member of the same tribe], saying, Know the LORD: For they shall all know me, From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: For I will forgive their iniquity, And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer. 31:31–34.

Nope. I don't read any Gentiles in the New Covenant given through the prophet Jeremiah from YHWH.
None at all.
Do you see Gentiles in this covenant described above?
No, you don't either.
Gentiles like to add Gentiles to the Jewish Covenant. That's called stealing another people's heritage and inheritance.
And it is a sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

You're being lazy and not looking up the scripture that I gave you.

Now I have to quote it <sigh>...

Eph 3:6, That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Clearly, in this verse, the Gentiles are beneficiaries of the New Covenant.

 

[makesends]

From my understanding of your doctrine, if God regenerates a person, he cannot make any other choice than to receive Him...and therefore it is not really a choice.

How is that not a choice? God puts before us the two options. We choose from them. Problem?

I would like you to tell me of one situation, even a hypothetical, where it can be proven that both options could have been chosen. That would be particularly good if you can tell me one from the Bible.

But there is also the drawing of the Holy Spirit; and in that, a person may be drawn and yet not receive Jesus.

So that isn't drawn salvifically, is it?

 

[makesends]

It is always good to rededicate one's life to the Lord. Justification may be constant; but that rededication may in fact be conducive to the person being sanctified all over again.

What —the first sanctification wasn't real enough?

 

[justbyfaith]

How is that not a choice? God puts before us the two options. We choose from them. Problem?

If he is regenerated before making a decision there is only one decision that can be made: to receive Christ.

That is not being drawn by the Holy Spirit; because where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17).

I would like you to tell me of one situation, even a hypothetical, where it can be proven that both options could have been chosen. That would be particularly good if you can tell me one from the Bible.

In Romans 10:9-13, a person might confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in his heart that God hath raised Him from the dead; or he may not.

A person might call on the name of the Lord, or he may not.

This is in context of being drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ.

So that isn't drawn salvifically, is it?

No; but it is being drawn to Christ. The person is enabled to receive, believe in, and follow Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

What —the first sanctification wasn't real enough?

There is the possibility of backsliding in holy scripture.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
How is that not a choice? God puts before us the two options. We choose from them. Problem?

If he is regenerated before making a decision there is only one decision that can be made: to receive Christ.

That is not being drawn by the Holy Spirit; because where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17).

Even if your claim "If he is regenerated before making a decision there is only one decision that can be made: to receive Christ." was true*, it does not logically result in your second assertion. If anyone truly chooses Christ, he freely does so, of love or of desperation, whether he will or whether he must, and God establishes it.

makesends said:
I would like you to tell me of one situation, even a hypothetical, where it can be proven that both options could have been chosen. That would be particularly good if you can tell me one from the Bible.

In Romans 10:9-13, a person might confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in his heart that God hath raised Him from the dead; or he may not.

A person might call on the name of the Lord, or he may not.

This is in context of being drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ.

You aren't showing me how both could have been chosen.

Empirically, only whatever they choose is ever chosen. Not both

makesends said:
What —the first sanctification wasn't real enough?

There is the possibility of backsliding in holy scripture.

How does that imply the backslider, if he ever was sanctified, is no longer sanctified? (We aren't talking here about the ongoing process theologically referred to as sanctification, are we? —because that is not RE-sanctification.) I think you are referring here to restored vs continuing fellowship with Christ, the same thing as what happens when he stands at the door and knocks, and we open the door.

*The claim, "If he is regenerated before making a decision there is only one decision that can be made: to receive Christ." is misleading. It carries an element of truth, in that the regenerated will indeed sooner or later choose Christ, but that is pretty much a daily all-day thing. He will also, more often than he realizes, choose against Christ —now preferring "the old man", now preferring fellowship with Christ. We do not necessarily recognize when God regenerates a person. The timing of the event is not the point, but that it is necessary to salvation can hardly be dismissed, unless one insists on self-determinism, i.e. salvation by works. Salvific faith is impossible for the dead; it is necessarily the result of regeneration by the Spirit of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Even if your claim "If he is regenerated before making a decision there is only one decision that can be made: to receive Christ." was true*,

So, you are saying that it is not true? In doing so, you are agreeing with me.

Because it is my teaching that when a man is drawn to Christ, he is not necessarily given to Christ.

Which means that he can make a decision either way.

You aren't showing me how both could have been chosen.

Empirically, only whatever they choose is ever chosen. Not both

I'm saying that they will choose one or the other. So, both are in the realm of what might be called options.

unless one insists on self-determinism, i.e. salvation by works.

self-determinism is not salvation by works.

Would you pit Romans 10:13 against Ephesians 2:8-9?

Salvific faith is impossible for the dead; it is necessarily the result of regeneration by the Spirit of God.

According to Ephesians 5:14, the dead are actually sleeping.

 

[makesends]

So, you are saying that it is not true? In doing so, you are agreeing with me.

I'm guessing you didn't see the asterisk, and look down to the note at the bottom of the post.

Because it is my teaching that when a man is drawn to Christ, he is not necessarily given to Christ.

Which means that he can make a decision either way.

But if he is not born of the Spirit of God, he never will choose Christ, but remains of the flesh (Romans 8).

I'm saying that they will choose one or the other. So, both are in the realm of what might be called options.

Right. They will choose one or the other. Guess which one they will choose. Yep, Romans 8 tells us.

self-determinism is not salvation by works.

Self-determinism is not salvation at all.

Would you pit Romans 10:13 against Ephesians 2:8-9

According to Ephesians 5:14, the dead are actually sleeping.

And the sleeping are actually dead. Helpless, unable, and unwilling. AT ENMITY WITH GOD.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm guessing you didn't see the asterisk, and look down to the note at the bottom of the post.

But if he is not born of the Spirit of God, he never will choose Christ, but remains of the flesh (Romans 8).

If he is born of the Spirit of God apart from receiving Christ, then he does not need to receive Christ.

Do you see how Calvinism as a doctrine is conducive to a man not doing what is necessary to procure salvation?

Right. They will choose one or the other. Guess which one they will choose. Yep, Romans 8 tells us.

Which verse? And what does it tell us?

Self-determinism is not salvation at all.

There is clearly something that we do in order to be saved according to scripture (Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, Acts 2:38-39).

And the sleeping are actually dead. Helpless, unable, and unwilling. AT ENMITY WITH GOD.

When faced with everlasting flames as the reality if they continue to be at enmity with God, I believe that many will be "woken up" for the moment so that they can make a decision to either receive or reject Christ as Lord and Saviour.

 

[makesends]

Which verse? And what does it tell us?

I'll be lazy and let you look it up and figure it out. No, that isn't quite a direct quote.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'll be lazy and let you look it up and figure it out. No, that isn't quite a direct quote.

It's alright I'll pass. I don't have a need to know everything that you are trying to communicate to me.

I'll just stay in ignorance on this one.

 

[Manfred]

Where does Jesus say that goats can never hear His voice?

Here:
Mat_7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The scripture that states all are drawn does not mean every individual, but from all nations and classes.
All who are taught by God will come!

You have a theology where all individuals are taught by God, but some choose not to come.

You contradict Jesus directly.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here:
Mat_7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The scripture that states all are drawn does not mean every individual, but from all nations and classes.
All who are taught by God will come!

You have a theology where all individuals are taught by God, but some choose not to come.

You contradict Jesus directly.

Are you a proponent of Universalism?

Please clarify your position.