Young Earth/Old Earth

[Carbon]

Death was a result of Adams sin which cursed not only man but also the ground , plants and animals. The entire world / creation was changed from the curse of sin.

I never said the ground wasn't cursed. Everything suffers because of Adam's sin. But I'm talking about death before the fall. Can you come up with something that states animals or plants did not die before the fall?

 

[Carbon]

@civic Death wasn't a bad thing. Spiritual death is.

If there were no death before Adam sinned, why did God create time before the fall?

 

[civic]

I never said the ground wasn't cursed. Everything suffers because of Adam's sin. But I'm talking about death before the fall. Can you come up with something that states animals or plants did not die before the fall?

You are asking an argument from silence to support your position. Sin brought forth death, corruption , sickness etc…… everything God created was good so there was no death , corruption, sickness etc prior to sin. Death, corruption , sickness is not good.

 

[David1701]

But that would be human sin and death. Other beings are out there. "The universe is full, not empty"-- Dr. Goodrick, Greek, Multnomah.

Christians go by what the Bible says. It says nothing about aliens.

 

[Arial]

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Romans 5.

I do not understand why so many claim it was for animals and plant life also. If anyone is trying to prove a YE with scripture on this point? I think it's a failure. Animals and plants are not sinners, they were not and won't be. It's not about them. Are they affected by it? Yes. It's not the animal's fault, it's ours. I am not sure what really changed for them. I'm sure once someone comes up with something, I'll say, oh yea, that's right. I do know because of the fall we hunt and kill them.

We are told that in the future kingdom the lion will lie down with the lamb. We are told at creation that plant life is for our food and also for the animals. Had Adam not not fallen, I don't believe there was any death at all and the heavens were positioned to support this. Now death and entropy affects everything. I do not believe that animals ate animals at creation, or that man ate animals, or that animals ate us or were afraid of us.

Not because animals sin but because man had to die. He could not be allowed to live forever in his wicked state. In order for man to die, and everything else with it, all of creation had to do a mighty shift in the way everything is placed and how it operates. (The science that is within it all. And though we call it science and have discovered much of it, it is God's created means of holding it all together.) And that may be what that passage in Jeremiah is speaking about. (Jer 4:23.) That particular passage is something the prophet sees, not God speaking.

Which suggests that at the restoration there will be another shift. If this is so, the first one did not destroy mankind and the second one won't either. However it could account for the marks of aging in the planet.

 

[Carbon]

You are asking an argument from silence to support your position. Sin brought forth death, corruption , sickness etc…… everything God created was good so there was no death , corruption, sickness etc prior to sin. Death, corruption , sickness is not good.

Why was death bad, as far as age? I would think Adam knew what death was, God told him to not eat of the tree or he will surely die. What good would that have done if Adam didn't know what death was?

 

[civic]

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.1 Cor 15:22

Where are animals mentioned here?
I'm quite sure if this topic wasn't being discussed no one would even think about animals in this verse. The natural thought is humans.

And the same is true of this: 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Romans 5:12-13.

See Romans 8
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit,groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

 

[David1701]

See Jer 4:23. It is the only other place where tohu wa-bohu is used. It means something was punished, destroyed. We need to think supernaturally here--2 Pet 3 and Jude both refer to past, dark 'prisons' of rebellious beings.

Jer. 4:22,23 (KJV)
22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

The point here is that this poetic allusion (it's a metaphor), to the start of the creation week, refers to the devastation of Israel being so great that the land has reverted to a states somewhat resembling the state it was in, before God had formed it and populated it.

 

[Carbon]

We are told that in the future kingdom the lion will lie down with the lamb. We are told at creation that plant life is for our food and also for the animals.

Okay.

Had Adam not not fallen, I don't believe there was any death at all and the heavens were positioned to support this.

So, you believe Adam, the animals, and plant life was immortal before the fall?

Now death and entropy affects everything. I do not believe that animals ate animals at creation, or that man ate animals, or that animals ate us or were afraid of us.

Okay

Not because animals sin but because man had to die. He could not be allowed to live forever in his wicked state. In order for man to die, and everything else with it, all of creation had to do a mighty shift in the way everything is placed and how it operates.

Animals and the earth are cursed because of the fall. Where do you find scripture pointing to animals dying after the fall?

(The science that is within it all. And though we call it science and have discovered much of it, it is God's created means of holding it all together.) And that may be what that passage in Jeremiah is speaking about. (Jer 4:23.) That particular passage is something the prophet sees, not God speaking.

Which suggests that at the restoration there will be another shift. If this is so, the first one did not destroy mankind and the second one won't either. However it could account for the marks of aging in the planet.

 

[Carbon]

See Romans 8
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit,groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Still nothing

 

[civic]

Okay.

So, you believe Adam, the animals, and plant life was immortal before the fall?

Okay

Animals and the earth are cursed because of the fall. Where do you find scripture pointing to animals dying after the fall?

Are we living after the fall today ?

Do humans die ?
Do animals die ?

What causes death ?

 

[David1701]

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Romans 5.

I do not understand why so many claim it was for animals and plant life also. If anyone is trying to prove a YE with scripture on this point? I think it's a failure. Animals and plants are not sinners, they were not and won't be. It's not about them. Are they affected by it? Yes. It's not the animal's fault, it's ours. I am not sure what really changed for them. I'm sure once someone comes up with something, I'll say, oh yea, that's right. I do know because of the fall we hunt and kill them.

Why do we have thorns and thistles? Why does cultivating the land now take the sweat of the brow? Why do animals not live in harmony with each other? Why do not only humans, but also animals, get hideous diseases? Why does the whole of creation (not only man) groan?

The answer is simple - the fall of Adam.

 

[civic]

Still nothing

Lots there about all creation suffering from the fall and awaiting its redemption that’s still future.

 

[Carbon]

Are we living after the fall today ?

Yes.

Do humans die ?

Yes

Do animals die ?

Yes

What causes death ?

Spiritual or physical?

 

[Carbon]

Why do we have thorns and thistles? Why does cultivating the land now take the sweat of the brow? Why do animals not live in harmony with each other? Why do not only humans, but also animals, get hideous diseases? Why does the whole of creation (not only man) groan?

The answer is simple - the fall of Adam.

I don't see anywhere I disagree with you.

It's all cursed.

 

[civic]

Yes.

Yes

Yes

Spiritual or physical?

Physical as we are discussing the physical consequences of sin and the fall.

 

[David1701]

I don't see anywhere I disagree with you.

It's all cursed.

Why do animals die?

 

[Carbon]

Lots there about all creation suffering from the fall and awaiting its redemption that’s still future.

I agree.

 

[civic]

I agree.

Roman’s 8 proves that all creation suffered from the fall, not prior

 

[Carbon]

Physical as we are discussing the physical consequences of sin and the fall.

Are you going to say Adam didn't have a clue of what God was talking about? The day you eat of this you shall surely die.