Young Earth/Old Earth

[Carbon]

No human death

It is possible for there to be death of animals (and certainly plants) before the fall

Absolutely.
I agree.

 

[David1701]

That brings us full circle to the debate over whether Gen 1.1 is meant to be understood as a summary/title or initial act of creation. But difficulties are encountered either way, regardless. We're left with two basic options, neither of which is appealing.

Option 1: If Gen 1.1 is God's first act of creation ("created the heavens and the earth"), then why did God 'create' and formless and void state of chaos that is antithetical to everything He does during the six day creation week? Ex 20.18 also limits creation to the six days (which suggests Gen 1.1 is a title/summary, not a first act). We also have the problem that God doesn't create an inhabitable earth until Day 3, nor the sky/heavens until Day 2.

Option 2: However, if Gen 1.1 is a title/summary statement and not an initial act of creation, that solves some of the problems above, but then creates the problem of pre-existent matter prior to God's start of creation.

Either way, v.2 presents a problem. I don't claim to have a solution. I agree with you that the Gap Theory doesn't solve the problem, and requires reading a whole back story in between v1 and v2, which is completely conjectural.

Re. Option 1: If a potter is going to create a beautiful vase, what does he start with? He starts with a formless lump of clay. There is nothing strange about it; and there is no problem.

Option 2 has the insurmountable problem that you mentioned.

 

[David1701]

Absolutely.
I agree.

The fossil record shows that animal deaths included predation, cancer, horrific injuries, etc.. How does this fit into a creation that God called "very good", before the Fall?

 

[Carbon]

The fossil record shows that animal deaths included predation, cancer, horrific injuries, etc.. How does this fit into a creation that God called "very good", before the Fall?

If this was God's plan, to have death of animals before Adam sinned, why would it not be good?

 

[TB2]

Re. Option 1: If a potter is going to create a beautiful vase, what does he start with? He starts with a formless lump of clay. There is nothing strange about it; and there is no problem.

The problem is that metaphor doesn't capture the "total chaos" formless, void darkness state of pre-creation depicted in v2 that truly is antithetical to the ensuing creative work of during the six days. @GeneZ is right about that, about the English translations not capturing that and being "too mild."

It's okay not to have an answer to it. I sure don't. But it is an unsolved problem/mystery that we might not get answered this side of heaven

 

[David1701]

Waltke, Hebrew prof at DTS and Regent College Vancouver, and other translations.

Cassuto explains the form used in the oral narratives of Gen 1-39:
1, title line
2, pre-existing conditions
3, new narrative
4, summary.

In Gen 1, this makes v2 the pre-exisiting condition. He shows all the examples out to ch 39 when Joseph took over.

So, in this scenario, the Earth exists before God created it (it doesn't say recreated), which is a nonsense.

 

[David1701]

If this was God's plan, to have death of animals before Adam sinned, why would it not be good?

I don't believe that millions of years of predation, death and suffering, before Adam sinned, were "very good". I very much doubt if you would think that either, if it hadn't been for evolutionary teaching influencing the churches.

 

[Carbon]

I don't believe that millions of years of predation, death and suffering, before Adam sinned, were "very good".

But it does not matter what you think or believe.

I very much doubt if you would think that either, if it hadn't been for evolutionary teaching influencing the churches.

It does not matter what I think and believe about it either.

 

[GeneZ]

The problem is that metaphor doesn't capture the "total chaos" formless, void darkness state of pre-creation depicted in v2 that truly is antithetical to the ensuing creative work of during the six days. @GeneZ is right about that, about the English translations not capturing that and being "too mild."

It's okay not to have an answer to it. I sure don't. But it is an unsolved problem/mystery that we might not get answered this side of heaven

You keep talking about "metaphors" as if Genesis 1:2 is not speaking of a stark reality.

Jeremiah 4:27 nails the correct interpretation home.

...............And, for some reason?

You keep trying to run away from home.

grace and peace .................

 

[TB2]

We don't even need to bring the fossil record into it. Adam and Eve were created mortal ("from dust") and required God's life sustaining presence to remain alive. Their disobedience led to expulsion from God's presence and the Tree of Life, so they were left to their mortality.

 

[David1701]

Where does the Bible say that?

Gen. 1:29,30 (WEB)
29 God said, “Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree, which bears fruit yielding seed. It will be your food.
30 To every animal of the earth, and to every bird of the sky, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food;” and it was so.

 

[David1701]

But it does not matter what you think or believe.

It does not matter what I think and believe about it either.

The Bible says that death came by sin (it doesn't say only human death).

 

[TB2]

You keep talking about "metaphors" as if Genesis 1:2 is not speaking of a stark reality.

Jeremiah 4:27 nails the correct interpretation home.

...............And, for some reason?

You keep trying to run away from home.

grace and peace .................

Actually no. You misread my comment to Daivd1701. I was referring to the metaphor of the potter and clay that he brought up

 

[Carbon]

@David1701 If it was part of God's plan that Satan (the first sinner) would be in the garden and be part of the cause of sin against God, how could we ever think that would be good unless God called everything good on the sixth day? Unless you think Satan was totally independent and sovereign in that case.

 

[David1701]

@David1701 If it was part of God's plan that Satan (the first sinner) would be in the garden and be part of the cause of sin against God, how could we ever think that would be good unless God called everything good on the sixth day? Unless you think Satan was totally independent and sovereign in that case.

Satan was not Satan on Day Six. He only became Satan (Adversary), after he fell, which was clearly some time between Day Six and when he tempted Eve.

 

[TB2]

The Bible says that death came by sin (it doesn't say only human death).

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam

 

[David1701]

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam

Yes, and...?

The application, to man, of the general principle that death came through sin, in no way excludes that principle being applied to the animals over which man had dominion.

 

[Carbon]

The Bible says that death came by sin (it doesn't say only human death).

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— Romans 5:12. Did the animals sin?
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13. So, is sin imputed unto animals now also?

 

[Carbon]

Satan was not Satan on Day Six. He only became Satan (Adversary), after he fell, which was clearly some time between Day Six and when he tempted Eve.

You think Satan fell when he tempted Eve? And you think that is clear? Do you mind pointing that out?

 

[Carbon]

You think Satan fell when he tempted Eve? And you think that is clear? Do you mind pointing that out?

@David1701
Also, why didn't the devil's sin count for Adam and Eve? Why did they have to sin also for it to effect them?