Young Earth/Old Earth

[Carbon]

Do you believe in death before sin then? You don't have to answer, if you don't want to (I've no hard feelings, either way).

I'll answer. I understand scripture to be talking about human death because of the fall. I can see no scripture supporting animal or plant life after the fall. If anything, I see the evidence leaning in favor of animals and plants did die before the fall.

 

[EarlyActs]

Do you believe in death before sin then? You don't have to answer, if you don't want to (I've no hard feelings, either way).

I find it is best if the 'death before sin' question is defined as to realm: human? universal? angelic realm?

 

[Carbon]

I find it is best if the 'death before sin' question is defined as to realm: human? universal? angelic realm?

There was sin before creation. Satan's rebellion.

 

[civic]

There was sin before creation. Satan's rebellion.

Which had no effects on creation until after Adams sin .

 

[Carbon]

Which had no effects on creation until after Adams sin .

Well, animals and plants don't rebel.

 

[Carbon]

A cat? Whats that?

 

[EarlyActs]

I'll answer. I understand scripture to be talking about human death because of the fall. I can see no scripture supporting animal or plant life after the fall. If anything, I see the evidence leaning in favor of animals and plants did die before the fall.

I think you meant 'supporting plant and animal death until the fall.' Or there is scripture supporting animal or plant life after the fall.'

 

[David1701]

I'll answer. I understand scripture to be talking about human death because of the fall. I can see no scripture supporting animal or plant life after the fall. If anything, I see the evidence leaning in favor of animals and plants did die before the fall.

What Scripture would you use to limit the death resulting from the Fall to humans?

Why would animals have died, before the Fall?

 

[David1701]

I find it is best if the 'death before sin' question is defined as to realm: human? universal? angelic realm?

The "death before sin" question applies to humans and animals.

 

[Wordsmith]

It's not much of a hurdle.

1) Creation started with the first day, beginning in darkness and ending in light (as did all the creation days).

2) Since the devil is a created being, he was created on one of the days of the creation week, probably Day One. (c.f. Job 38:4-7)

3) This means that he fell very soon after being created, and before Adam and Eve sinned.


See above.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I read this as the angels were shouting for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth. They were already created. Yours one theory mine is another.

 

[civic]

Well ya know, when I started this thread I said I was undecided. I was hoping you all YEers would have some good evidence. But you really don’t. What I mainly see is a few of ya getting upset and I understand that’s the way it is sometimes when peoples views are challenged to where they can’t defend them. So please don’t turn that on me saying I’m upset, because I ain’t. I have challenged a lot of people on and off forums. I have someone right now actually that is upset with me because I challenged them in a few things and they won’t talk to me now.
I know what comfort zones are, I’ve had them and probably still have some. I’ve been challenged and pressed to think. I’m used to it.
There was a person on another forum that I tried to have a friendly debate with about baptism. Rob, you remember that.
He couldn’t prove anything and said the burden was on me. That’s one of the best excuses going.

It really causes me to wonder why some do such things when challenged? Are some afraid they might loose their faith if things aren’t according to their comfort zones?

I will talk to you, just answer the phone and don't hang up on me

 

[Arial]

Again, this is only saying something about the extent of your study. There are a number of Christian scholars and theologians who understand and have articulated the parallels between Psalm 104 and Genesis 1; just one example is Derek Kidner, Psalms 73-150, Tyndale Old Testament Commentary (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 1973); see also Schrock 2011a and 2011b.

Do you find it necessary to put a person down in order add "validity" to what you say. Do you actually think I do not see that it is talking about creation? But the subject is God and His sovereignty. P.S. Some of the dumbest people I know have a whole series of initials following their names and boy do they count on it to win try and win an argument.

Such is your own counter-claim. I have no idea what it's worth, but okay.

All it takes is a reading of the Psalm, even a casual one to know what it is saying. But it certainly doesn't prove that animals died before the fall.

Now, apply this consistently. What is the cause of this death? According to Paul here in Romans 5 and elsewhere, death is the result of sin. That is why death spread to all people, because all sinned—first in Adam and also in themselves. You want to say that death also spread to all animals, but that clearly does violence to our text here which explicitly says that death spread to all people, the only creatures who sin, the thing that results in this death.

Wow. So you conclude that because only men sin and therefore only men need to be redeemed that means animals would have died with or without man's sin? And that if someone presumes they probably didn't die before the fall they are doing violence to the text? Really. I wasn't even using that text and that text is not about whether or not animals died before the fall. It is about man. Why would it insert animals into it. Our sin is the result of our death, and if we die, everything else must die also. That is in what way the creation was affected and cursed and corrupted by the fall of man.

then why did death spread to animals? Please provide a biblical case for this, as well as points 1 and 4.

Death spread to animals because of the corruption of the world. The same things that cause man to die also cause animals to die. It is a curse. The earth was cursed. At creation there was not anything that would cause anything to die. Exactly what Romans 8 tells us. As for answering 1-4 let me ask you a question. Have you stopped beating your wife? IOW make it a question that is answerable.

And we both know that nothing there is being said about animal death.

Are animals part of creation?

If you want to equate creation groaning with animals dying, you have some exegetical heavy lifting to do.

I was thinking that was exactly what you need to learn to do. I equate the groaning to "under the sun", and not just people are subject to it. Look what people do to nature. They cut down forests and pave them over with concrete, destroy beautiful vistas to build condos, fill open spaces with huge, ugly, noisy windmills that send vibrations deep into the earth doing who knows what damage and kill birds b the thousands. And we won't even begin to the atrocities we do to one another and yes, the animals. That is what the creation is groaning about, the blight we have laid upon it.

I also wonder if you're aware of the Old Testament references Paul is drawing from here

On no, I am way to dumb for that and my understanding and exegetical skills so underdeveloped its a wonder I can put 2 and 2 together. Are you unaware you are talking down to people, assuming their inferior intelligence to your own, or do you do it on purpose?

On the contrary, it is fundamentally crucial to this topic. Everyone seems to be talking past each other precisely because nobody has checked to see if you're all talking about the same thing or if that's even what Paul meant. If he was not talking about death in biological terms but rather theological, then the discussion is more silly than ever.

I don't think anyone is confused about what kind of death we are talking about. If you are I don't know what to tell you. You are the only one bringing Romans 5 into the conversation which is in no way related to the conversation.

You implicitly referred to it when you said, "As we are told that death entered our world because of sin ..." (June 25, 2023). And that, of course, is exactly how Paul began Romans 5:12, "So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, ..."

I wasn't referencing Romans 5 I was merely stating the obvious that death entered our world because of sin (see Gen),

Don't get too hung up on that word. (I should know better than to use a highly charged word. I'm sorry.) All I meant to say is that Romans 5 and 8 "do not make the case" that you are trying to argue for.

Romans 8, Gen 1 and Rev 21 make a legitimate case for what I state as my belief.

 

[David1701]

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I read this as the angels were shouting for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth. They were already created. Yours one theory mine is another.

There is only one creation account in the Bible (and a few mentions of it, later on), which means that everything was created in those seven days. It makes no difference if the angels were created earlier on Day One than the foundations of the Earth. It's still Day One.

 

[David1701]

There was sin before creation. Satan's rebellion.

What??? That would mean that Satan was not a created being!

 

[Arial]

I find it is best if the 'death before sin' question is defined as to realm: human? universal? angelic realm?

I agree. The meaning of creation seems to be going back and forth between all creation and the creation of our world and all that is in it. And what someone determines as the usage appears to depend on whether or not one way can be used as an argument and the other way cannot so the decide to revert to the one that produces the rebuttal.

So since the portion of the conversation dealing here as a subsection is not necessarily addressing directly OE/NE when the term creation is used as the creation of our world, earth as we know it and as our habitat, probably should be stated as such. Therein avoiding some of the responses that are given.

Our world was not the first creation. There were created things and beings prior to this as the Bible makes clear, but are invisible to us. Satan is one of those beings. And he was already in the Garden lying in wait to again challenge God through deceiving the first humans, our federal head, Adam. And he could not have been there without God placing him there.

It may be that what is now our abode is the place the deceiver was cast down to when he was cast out of heaven. That would also explain what our science sees as evidence of aging used to support old earth. The creation of our world that we were to inhabit makes no mention of creating land masses but only of dividing the waters. As such it would do no damage to a literal six day creation of our world as we know it. And it is because of him that it was in darkness and void. Were there plants and animals there that were subject to death? Not as we know them for we see them being created in the six days of the creation of our abode and us. Would they have died if Adam hadn't sinned? Probably not as there would be no reason for them to. Everything was perfect just as it was. God does not create something that is not perfect. There are no degrees of perfect with Him, just as there are no degrees of good.

 

[civic]

The universal curse from adams sin brought forth death and corruption to the entire creation. See below from got questions.

The fall of man was caused by Adam’s sin. Sin is any human behavior, word, or thought that is contrary to the perfection of God. Because of Adam’s sin, God placed a curse upon the world, the people, the animals, the plants, and the very ground (Genesis 3:14–19). Their sin had brought upon them the judgment of God, and the only just punishment for such high treason is eternal death (Romans 6:23). But God then put into play a system by which human beings could find pardon for sin. God killed an animal and made garments for the man and woman to cover the nakedness that now brought them shame (Genesis 3:21). In doing so, God painted a picture of what He would do thousands of years later when the Perfect Lamb was slain to take away our sin (John 1:29; Revelation 13:8).

After the fall of man, God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden and placed a cherub to guard the entrance. This was so that Adam and Eve could not return and possibly eat from the tree of life and live forever in their cursed state (Genesis 3:23–24). They were forced to find their own food and shelter. Adam had to fight weeds and thistles to eke out an existence from the ground, while Eve had to suffer in childbirth. Suffering and toil are part of the curse God put upon this world because of sin.

We call this episode in human history the fall of man because, in that act of disobedience, Adam brought a curse upon every person yet to be born. The man who was designed to walk with God in unbroken fellowship had fallen from that exalted position. He was doomed to live in a broken state, in a broken world, apart from ongoing communion with a holy God. God promised that the Seed of the woman would one day save them from the eternal consequences of their sin (Genesis 3:15), but the temporary earthly consequences of sin remained.

We all suffer the consequences of the fall of man. Our salvation is in calling upon the name of the Lord and trusting in Jesus’ perfect sacrifice for our sin (Romans 5:10–11; 2 Corinthians 5:18). The world groans under the curse, crying out for the relief that will come at the ultimate redemption of God’s people when Christ returns (Romans 8:22–23). When Jesus comes for all those who have trusted in Him, God will restore all things (Acts 3:21). He will create a new heaven and a new earth to replace that which sin destroyed (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:12–13; Revelation 21:1). Mankind will no longer be “fallen” but restored and redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God (Revelation 7:14).

 

[Carbon]

11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day. Genesis 1:11-13.

A sure sign of life, time, and death.

 

[Carbon]

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,[f] and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. Gen 1:14-19.

Another sure sign of life, time, and death.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Man on planet around 6000 years on old planet /universe.

 

[EarlyActs]

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,[f] and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. Gen 1:14-19.

Another sure sign of life, time, and death.

Why death?