Young Earth/Old Earth

[Carbon]

I have given my view on that and why see it the way I do from scripture.
My question to you: Where does it say they did die before the fall?

Well, it's a logical conclusion I came to. Since Adam fell, sin and death spread to all men only. As Scripture teaches. Nothing to do with animals. Since there are animal bones, all sorts of fossils, ect...ect... it seems logical to believe there was death before the fall. Not human death, but animal and plants. In your point, you have absolutely nothing to go on that I can see, to prove your point.

But aren't you assuming that since it says all men die that means plants and animals were dying before the fall?

Im not assuming anything. It doesn't speak of animals and plants. Aren't you assuming it does? I mean you cant find any proof after all.

That is all we can do as the Bible doesn't explicitly say, but I feel there is enough evidence within the Bible, a preponderance of evidence, that suggests more strongly that they did not. Not to mention, what were they going to die of?

Then show the evidence.

 

[Carbon]

For one thing they were created fully grown. They never even began an aging process.

And you say they didn't age after being created as an adult? Since Adam lived past 900 years I'd say he aged.

Interesting ....

Proof, please?

 

[Sereni-tea]

I have given my view on that and why see it the way I do from scripture.
My question to you: Where does it say they did die before the fall?


But aren't you assuming that since it says all men die that means plants and animals were dying before the fall? That is all we can do as the Bible doesn't explicitly say, but I feel there is enough evidence within the Bible, a preponderance of evidence, that suggests more strongly that they did not. Not to mention, what were they going to die of?

Mankind was created mortal. We know this because the Tree of Life was in the Garden. Eating the fruit from this tree would allow then to live forever - which is why they were banished after the Fall. (Genesis 3:22) Since mankind is the pinnacle of God's creation, it therefore stands to reason that the rest of creation was also created mortal, i.e. all life - man or animal would die if they did not have access to the Tree of Life.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

And there is no biblical evidence to warrant a belief that [animals] did die.

There is, actually, even if you're not aware of it. I refer you to Psalm 104, known as the Creation Psalm.

There actually is no reason to suppose that they did die.

Again, as far as you're aware. As it turns out, there is an abundance of reason for supposing they did die.

However, there is plenty [of reasons] to suppose that they didn't die.

I would ask you to give me just one reason but, since I know you would refer to Romans 5, let's just go ahead and look at that.

"We are told that death entered our world because of sin," you said, "and everything that would cause death with it."

You are omitting something awfully crucial to this discussion and I certainly hope it was a matter of negligence. What does Romans 5:12 say? "So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned ..." (emphasis added).

That strikes me as super important to this discussion, the fact that (a) death spread to all people (b) because all sinned. It doesn't say that death spread to all the world, thus including animals, but rather to all people. And it's because all sinned, which further underscores that it's not talking about animals because they can't sin, nor was Adam their federal head. As we read the entirety of Romans 5:12-21, it is abundantly clear that the object is people, either in Adam or in Christ. I don't see any way to make this passage about animals.

But something equally as important is being omitted in these discussions, namely, what is death? It seems like everyone has assumed this is about biological death, an assumption that everyone is taking for granted and running with, for nobody has bothered to make that case. But shouldn't Romans 5:21 (cf. Gen 2:17) give us a moment of pause? If Paul is talking about death in a biological sense (i.e., physically deceased), how can sin reign therein? It does not make sense to speak of sin reigning in a corpse.

His fall and federal headship caused all men to be sinners.

Exactly, thus "death spread to all people because all sinned." Did death spread to all animals? That's not what it says. If you're going to make that case, you'll have to cite something other than Romans 5, which undermines that idea.

The fall affected all of creation.

Literally nobody is disputing that. In fact, people seem to keep agreeing with it. What is being denied is that Adam's fall resulted in death spreading to all animals, and Romans 5 and 8 do not prove the case you're trying to make.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Adam was also delegated head over the Earth. His fall affected all those in him and all that was under him.

Dominion and headship are not the same thing.

 

[Manfred]

Are you a young earth or old earth believer?

I will say this.

God nit NOT create using evolution!

Creation and evolution stand in stark contrast with each other.

Evolutionists believe that at some point before Adam there were apes and Adam came from an ape. Then evolutionary creationists have to believe eve did not evolve from an Ape, but evolved from Adam and he was preserved in sleep for the period of time it took Eve to evolve.

Its all nonsense.

 

[Arial]

And you say they didn't age after being created as an adult? Since Adam lived past 900 years I'd say he aged.

Interesting ....

Proof, please?

After the fall.

 

[Wordsmith]

God gave them a gift and some day their gifts will be applied in a way that will move mankind from this dying planet to a new home somewhere out there. Hopefully they'll take better care of the next Earth.

This theory in no way lines up with scripture . God will create a new Heaven and Earth not evacuated us to another planet “somewhere out there”.

 

[Wordsmith]

This sounds like the so-called "Gap Theory", which falls at the first hurdle, because the Bible says that Adam's sin is the reason why sin and death entered the world.

Let’s reverse engineer your theory. Adam sinned because Eve talked him into a lie. Eve sinned because the serpent lied to and deceived her. The serpent was evil before either Adam or Eve sinned. Now you have to explain how and when that happened. That is the first hurdle you have. Let’s start there then we can proceed. Yes scripture is correct sin and death entered the world of Adam and Eve because of Adam’s sin but the first sin recorded in Gods entire creation began with the one who temped Eve. The one who wanted to be like the Most High. The one not created to inhabit this world. Adam was given dominion over the earth not the serpent. Adam’s sin did bring sin and death into the earth. But until someone actually deals with when and how the serpent became evil I stand firm on what I’ve said here.

 

[civic]

Let’s reverse engineer your theory. Adam sinned because Eve talked him into a lie. Eve sinned because the serpent lied to and deceived her. The serpent was evil before either Adam or Eve sinned. Now you have to explain how and when that happened. That is the first hurdle you have. Let’s start there then we can proceed. Yes scripture is correct sin and death entered the world of Adam and Eve because of Adam’s sin but the first sin recorded in Gods entire creation began with the one who temped Eve. The one who wanted to be like the Most High. The one not created to inhabit this world.

Strawman. God declares its the sin of adam that caused the curse of all creation, the fall ,death, pain, suffering, sickness etc.......

You are equivocating.

 

[Wordsmith]

Strawman. God declares its the sin of adam that caused the curse of all creation, the fall ,death, pain, suffering, sickness etc.......

You are equivocating.

Easy for you to just declare me wrong but it is another matter for you to address the real point of the post. Try that and we can discuss it.

 

[civic]

Easy for you to just declare me wrong but it is another matter for you to address the real point of the post. Try that and we can discuss it.

It’s called a loaded question fallacy you have proposed. I have plenty of scripture making the fall and responsible party falling upon Adam. It’s his sin that caused the fall and the curse , not satans or the woman. God help Adam accountable and put the full blame on him so he was without excuse. God did not allow him to shift the blame on the devil or eve. Adam was fully culpable and no one else.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Wordsmith]

Strawman. God declares its the sin of adam that caused the curse of all creation, the fall ,death, pain, suffering, sickness etc.......

You are equivocating.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so deathpassed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Sin entered the world by one man! This is unquestionably true. Why ignore the serpent and it’s motivations and origin! Because it opens the door to talk about s topic some here have ignored or rejected.

 

[civic]

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so deathpassed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Sin entered the world by one man! This is unquestionably true. Why ignore the serpent and it’s motivations and origin! Because it opens the door to talk about s topic some here have ignored or rejected.

Why would I need to discuss satan ? God blamed adam so I'm discussing adam the responsible party. I don't need to speculate. I don't need to know the exact timeframe of his rebellion since God deemed it was unnecessary for us to know and did not include that in His word. I don't need to speculate on things God deemed for me not to know. There is plenty of His revealed will that is spelled out crystal clear for me to apply and deal with let alone the things He hasn't revealed and making foolish speculations about. That is not my cup of tea.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Wordsmith]

It’s called a loaded question fallacy you have proposed. I have plenty of scripture making the fall and responsible party falling upon Adam. It’s his sin that caused the fall and the curse , not satans or the woman. God help Adam accountable and put the full blame on him so he was without excuse. God did not allow him to shift the blame on the devil or eve. Adam was fully culpable and no one else.

hope this helps !!!

You totally are missing the point and ignoring facts. I have repeatedly acknowledged sin entered the world because of ADAMS sin. But for some unknown reason you are oblivious to the fact God created heaven with actual occupants and one of those led a rebellion and fell from the place God created him for. Adams sin absolutely brought sin in this world but had absolutely nothing to do with satans fall. Why do you keep ignoring the obvious?

 

[Carbon]

After the fall.

So time stood still before the fall?

 

[Wordsmith]

Why would I need to discuss satan ? God blamed adam so I'm discussing adam the responsible party. I don't need to speculate. I don't need to know the exact timeframe of his rebellion since God deemed it was unnecessary for us to know and did not include that in His word. I don't need to speculate on things God deemed for me not to know. There is plenty of His revealed will that is spelled out crystal clear for me to apply and deal with let alone the things He hasn't revealed and making foolish speculations about. That is not my cup of tea.

hope this helps !!!

I’ll tell you why. Because you have taken an unscriptural or unconcerned stand on the topic of this thread and can’t admit your theology on this topic just might be flawed. If you cannot seriously discuss this topic why are you here? Just to tell everyone how wrong they are and how right you are?Actually discussing the issues related to the topic is what would really help!

 

[civic]

So time stood still before the fall?

If the sun stood still for a day in Joshua 10:12-14 why couldn't it happen during the 6 days of creation ?

 

[civic]

I’ll tell you why. Because you have taken an unscriptural or unconcerned stand on the topic of this thread and can’t admit your theology on this topic just might be flawed. If you cannot seriously discuss this topic why are you here? Just to tell everyone how wrong they are and how right you are?Actually discussing the issues related to the topic is what would really help!

satan has nothing to do with the validity of the 6 day creation week. This is yet another strawman.

 

[Wordsmith]

satan has nothing to do with the validity of the 6 day creation week. This is yet another strawman.

No strawman here I am actually trying to deal with the topic of the thread you refuse to actually participate. BTW I do believe the Genesis account of creation 6 literal days after verse 2.