The Rapture or the Second Coming

[CrowCross]

Does the rapture occur seven years prior to Christ's return?

That is how scripture presents it.
Keep in mind that the tribulation doesn't have to start on the exact day of the rapture. The tribulation starts when the anti-christ who is revealed after the rapture....2 These 2:3. I believe the tribulation begins when the peace treaty is confirmed by the anti-christ. Dan 9:27.

Currently the Abraham Accord seems to qualify as what is mentioned....though it doesn't have to be it.

But in essence YES, the rapture occur 7 years prior.

 

[Arial]

I did in post 41.

You said this:

When someone can explain away the white horse ....I'll drop the 2 returns of Christ Jesus.

Below is my reply to that which you say you responded to in post #41:

How about it just be explained. Unless you can actually counter the explanation, I expect you to keep your word.

My explanation from the view of Covenant theology.

Rev 19:11-16 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and Tre, and in righteousness he judges and makes war...

Keep in mind John is seeing a vision and like all his other visions, it is given with symbols that are signifying truths.

The rider is Jesus-coming not as Savior in humiliation but as Judge and King at his second coming.

The white horse signifies victory and purity. We see "white" signifying purity, holiness, or righteousness elsewhere in the Bible (Dan 7:9; Isa 1:18; Rev 3:4-5; 7:9, 13-14).

And we see the horse associated with warfare, strength, and speed (Job 29:19-25 and elsewhere). So the white horse signifies righteous intent and divine victory. Just as the rest of Rev 19 along with 18 and 21 depict.

In Zech 1:8 and 6:1-8 we see colored horses in another vision. The white horses go toward the west. These don't explicitly define "white horse=victory but they establish representatives of heavenly missions and divine action linked to symbolically colored horses.

Christ comes to complete the promises of the covenant of grace: to rescue his people, vindicate his name, and bring final judgement. It fulfills texts such as Gen 3:15; Ps 2;Isa 11

His robe dipped in blood is judgment language. Rev 19 shows Christ fulfilling the covenant of grace and inaugurating the new creation order of Rev 21. It is apocalyptic imagery showing the outworking of God's eternal plan of redemption where Christ returns as the faithful covenant king to rule in righteousness.

No need for a literal white horse to carry Jesus who is God, to victory.

Here is what you claim was a counter:

That's all well and good....but the angels said Jesus would return the same way He left. In Acts 1 Jesus didn't leave in the way you described above.
On the other hand the rapture shows Jesus returning in the same way He left.

Hence.....your contradiction.

In your statement I was responding to you merely ask someone to explain away the white horse if they could. Here you shift the goal post. The language in Rev 19 is not literal language, therefore is not a contradiction to what is said in Acts. The white horse signifies what I said in post 38---what he is returning for not the manner in which he returns.

If by the rapture you are referring to the passage in Thess about his return, you are right that it shows the rapture at his second coming, and that it shows it the same way as it does in Acts. You have determined that is referring to a pre-trib rapture of the saints when the passage says nothing about a pre-trib rapture or a tribulation at all. Therefore it is not depicting a second coming to be followed by a third coming when he stands on the Mt of Olives and it is split in two as per Zach. Dispensationalism gets the OT so messed up that everything after that eschatalogically is made to fit into that screwed up view. It flat out reads it into the Bible from the outside, not from the Bible itself. And by the outside, I mean what the first dispensationalists began to teach. I will tackle the Zech 14 passage later.

You know, if dispensationalist would get over this two kingdoms of God mistake they have made, and go back to Gen 3:14-15 and from there, keep every thing else connected to that, all the way through as one story, the story of redemption, the fulfilling of that Gen 3 promise, they would not have the difficulty they have eschatologically. They would not have to find ways for the Bible to be speaking God a pre-trib rapture of the saints followed by judgment and a 1000 year reign of Jesus in Jerusalem, to deal with geo/political Israel and the Jews, followed by another rebellion and war against literal physical Israel, and then at long last, the two kingdoms of God, Israel and the Church, united and peace on earth.

They wouldn't have to be so afraid and untrusting of God, that they had to concoct a way out of this seven years of horror and terror that they made up ---really out of thin air. They would recognize apocalyptic literature when they see it, and read it accordingly. Instead as though it were a narrative and a puzzle to be solved.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Those times of trouble have not been witnessed yet.

They murdered the Son of the Living God—and you're telling me “those times of trouble have not yet come”?

How can human history possibly get darker than the moment when sinful humanity crucified the Lord of Glory (1 Cor 2:8)? God became man, dwelt among us, healed the sick, raised the dead, proclaimed the kingdom—and yet He was betrayed, mocked, and nailed to a cross by those He came to save. That wasn’t just another dark day in history—it was the climactic moment of judgment and grace.

And yet, as shocking as it was, the cross was not the end of the story. Jesus rose, ascended, and now reigns at the right hand of God (Acts 2:33–36; 1 Cor 15:25). From there He rules and brings all things into subjection—including judgments and tribulations throughout history, like the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which Jesus clearly foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

That wasn’t a preview—it was the fulfillment of His prophetic word: “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (Matt 24:34). And a judgment it was. Josephus describes horrors so unimaginable—famine, cannibalism, slaughter—that it stands as a historical echo of divine wrath on covenantal unfaithfulness (cf. Deut 28:53–57).

But the Bible doesn’t stop with Jerusalem. Judgment falls again and again on nations, not always with fire from heaven, but through God’s sovereign providence—economic collapse, social decay, wars, plagues (Rom 1:24–32). And yes, America and the West are under such judgment. But that doesn't mean Christ is returning tomorrow. He could—He may not. We are not given the day or hour (Matt 24:36). We’re given a call: faithful endurance.

We don’t live by countdown—we live by covenant faithfulness.

There is no rapture coming to snatch us away from suffering. That idea isn’t found in Scripture. The church doesn’t escape tribulation; we endure through it by the Grace of God.

We’re not waiting for an escape—we’re waiting for consummation. The New Creation is coming, not a heavenly evacuation.

Until then, judgment refines the church (1 Pet 4:17). It tests us. It proves whether our faith is genuine. Will we cling to Christ, hold fast, walk by the Spirit, stay on the narrow way—even when it costs us? That’s the real battle. And it hasn’t changed. From Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 12, it’s the same war: the serpent against the seed, Satan against Christ, Babylon against the Bride.

But the Lamb has already overcome (Rev 5:5). And now we overcome “by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony” (Rev 12:11).

So do you know who the last person to be sealed is? Or the hour they will believe? Neither do I. That knowledge belongs to the Lord alone (2 Tim 2:19). Our job is not to speculate—but to stay faithful.

Christ could come at any moment—but we’re not driven by panic. We’re fueled by hope. That’s the posture of the church in every age—not fear, but watchful obedience.

 

[CrowCross]

They murdered the Son of the Living God—and you're telling me “those times of trouble have not yet come”?

No.

Here is a portion of what the times of trouble will look like....these events have NEVER happened and are future.

Rev 8:6And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters.

How can human history possibly get darker than the moment when sinful humanity crucified the Lord of Glory (1 Cor 2:8)? God became man, dwelt among us, healed the sick, raised the dead, proclaimed the kingdom—and yet He was betrayed, mocked, and nailed to a cross by those He came to save. That wasn’t just another dark day in history—it was the climactic moment of judgment and grace.

I don't think that's what Jesus meant when He said "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unseen from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." In other words Jesus wasn't talking about His death. The verse just before it Jesus says...Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath....Should the people have ran during the crucification? Hoped the crucifixion wasn't in winter?

I think you took the verse out of context.

And yet, as shocking as it was, the cross was not the end of the story. Jesus rose, ascended, and now reigns at the right hand of God (Acts 2:33–36; 1 Cor 15:25). From there He rules and brings all things into subjection—including judgments and tribulations throughout history, like the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which Jesus clearly foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

That wasn’t a preview—it was the fulfillment of His prophetic word: “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (Matt 24:34). And a judgment it was. Josephus describes horrors so unimaginable—famine, cannibalism, slaughter—that it stands as a historical echo of divine wrath on covenantal unfaithfulness (cf. Deut 28:53–57).

But the Bible doesn’t stop with Jerusalem. Judgment falls again and again on nations, not always with fire from heaven, but through God’s sovereign providence—economic collapse, social decay, wars, plagues (Rom 1:24–32). And yes, America and the West are under such judgment.

But that doesn't mean Christ is returning tomorrow. He could—He may not. We are not given the day or hour (Matt 24:36). We’re given a call: faithful endurance.

According to you Christ can't return tomorrow...the 7 year tribulation.."book of .Revelation" hasn't happened yet. Is it not your claim that's when Jesus returns? At the end chapter 19?

The pre-trips understand Jesus can return tomorrow at the rapture resurrection event...there is nothing to fulfill.

We don’t live by countdown—we live by covenant faithfulness.

Why do you consider prophecy as a countdown?

There is no rapture coming to snatch us away from suffering. That idea isn’t found in Scripture. The church doesn’t escape tribulation; we endure through it by the Grace of God.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.11I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

1 Thes 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

We’re not waiting for an escape—we’re waiting for consummation. The New Creation is coming, not a heavenly evacuation.

Yes, the new creation is coming. That happens after the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

Until then, judgment refines the church (1 Pet 4:17). It tests us. It proves whether our faith is genuine. Will we cling to Christ, hold fast, walk by the Spirit, stay on the narrow way—even when it costs us? That’s the real battle. And it hasn’t changed. From Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 12, it’s the same war: the serpent against the seed, Satan against Christ, Babylon against the Bride.

Yes, battles not judgement. Didn't Jesus already pay the price for your judgement when He hung on the cross?

But the Lamb has already overcome (Rev 5:5). And now we overcome “by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony” (Rev 12:11).

So do you know who the last person to be sealed is? Or the hour they will believe? Neither do I. That knowledge belongs to the Lord alone (2 Tim 2:19). Our job is not to speculate—but to stay faithful.

No I don't know who the last person will be. it is our job, or one of our jobs to pay attention to prophecy. Do you believe all the prophecy has been fulfilled?

Christ could come at any moment—but we’re not driven by panic. We’re fueled by hope. That’s the posture of the church in every age—not fear, but watchful obedience.

As I said before...according to your theology Christ can't come until Rev 19. We haven't gone through Rev 8 that I mentioned above....so how can Christ come tomorrow?

On the other hand the rapture of the church says Christ can come at any moment. I say to you....LOOK UP!!!

 

[Hazelelponi]

LOL...Dude, you're a broken record. You go off on these long "superior" tangents....misrepresenting the rapture.

But don't worry when the pre-trib rapture happens....if you're a christian...you'll still go up.

And your inverting everything, turning things inside out.

You have God reacting instead of sovereignly directing events as He rules His people and you would have God's people unprepared for what they face as you tell them the great escape draws nigh.

That's not the Gospel message for His people after they are saved by Grace through faith helping teach them to endure the hardships of trials and tribulations as we await the Blessed Hope that is to come.

 

[CrowCross]

And your inverting everything, turning things inside out.

You have God reacting instead of sovereignly directing events as He rules His people and you would have God's people unprepared for what they face as you tell them the great escape draws nigh.

That's not the Gospel message for His people after they are saved by Grace through faith helping teach them to endure the hardships of trials and tribulations as we await the Blessed Hope that is to come.

I don't disagree. We should and will endure hardships. But, that's not what the tribulation mentioned in Rev is about.

Do you think Jesus is going to put His bride through Rev 8? How about Rev 13? He removed Noah from the flood and Lot from Sodom and He says He'll remove the bride from the earth during the tribulation prophesied in Revelation.

The blessed hope that is to come is the RESURRECTION and subsequent rapture written about in the same chapter. You act as if you want to go through the tribulation. The great tribulation isn't meant for Christians.

 

[Arial]

Yes it does. Now, the bible may not come out and directly say those words you posted...just as the bible doesn't say there is a trinity (which there is)...but the bible strongly infers both positions as being biblical fact.

Biblical fact?! Dispensationalists are the ones who inferr it. It nowhere falls into the category of the Tritinty not being directly stated as a word. In that case the Trinity is not inferrer or implied, it is demonstrated within the Scriptures. A pre-trib rapture is not.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The great tribulation isn't meant for Christians.

Tribulations are here whether you agree with it or not. We have a testing ahead. We have to be able to walk in the Way, all the way through it.

25% of the earth perished during the black death. Some European nations lost up to 3/4 of their population.

In WW2 alone between 75-85 million people died in war. Adjusted for modern population size that's the equivalent of 250 to 300 million people dying in a single war today.

If you think for a minute that God is going to take you out of really bad scenarios think again.

We will endure to the end is what, it is at God's good pleasure we serve and worship Him only, unless it's no longer His good pleasure.

You act like God's just abusive if we have to suffer. I don't think that's the case, He suffered for us first. Why would we not labor in the Way even if it was rough.

Look how many early Christians died! They didn't feel abused, they felt honored to be united with Christ, in both life and death.

This is not the second death, these are only the hardships of this temporal life, it's something we pass through - but it's not easy. It's very narrow the gate that leads to eternal life.

And I'm sorry but no, you don't get to pretend that killing the Son of the Living God in cold blood was not the heights of human depravity because it was ... It really really really was.

They literally tried to kill God.

 

[Arial]

The actual physical return at the end of the 7 year tribulation when Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives and it splits. (Zech 14:4) As we all know this event hasn'thappened yet. I meant to say Zech 14 in post 59 above when I replied to @Arial .

This is moving far afield of the OP topic but since you brought it up; and since any OP that is started about eschatology, no matter what area it is focused on; when you get involved in posting in it, you are unable or unwilling to stick to a singular topic, but always bring in elements of your own full eschatological view from hither, thither, and yon, never dealing fully with any of them; treating them all as highfalutin fact; I will move an explanation of Zach 14 to its own thread and link it when I am finished.

 

[CrowCross]

Tribulations are here whether you agree with it or not. We have a testing ahead. We have to be able to walk in the Way, all the way through it.

25% of the earth perished during the black death. Some European nations lost up to 3/4 of their population.

In WW2 alone between 75-85 million people died in war. Adjusted for modern population size that's the equivalent of 250 to 300 million people dying in a single war today.

If you think for a minute that God is going to take you out of really bad scenarios think again.

We will endure to the end is what, it is at God's good pleasure we serve and worship Him only, unless it's no longer His good pleasure.

You act like God's just abusive if we have to suffer. I don't think that's the case, He suffered for us first. Why would we not labor in the Way even if it was rough.

Look how many early Christians died! They didn't feel abused, they felt honored to be united with Christ, in both life and death.

This is not the second death, these are only the hardships of this temporal life, it's something we pass through - but it's not easy. It's very narrow the gate that leads to eternal life.

And I'm sorry but no, you don't get to pretend that killing the Son of the Living God in cold blood was not the heights of human depravity because it was ... It really really really was.

They literally tried to kill God.

Are you saying the trumpets of Rev 8 have already blown? You do know Rev is talking about a world wide judgement. Yes?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Are you saying the trumpets of Rev 8 have already blown? You do know Rev is talking about a world wide judgement. Yes?

Now is not the best time for me on an actual back and forth type discussion that is wholly edifying to the topic and I doubt that your much interested in getting to the Scriptural truth as you seem rather to be propagating opinion instead of doing the whole "let's study" thing, which ya know, we all have hobbies.

But, I am just feeding yours atm which I will stop doing. You should do Scripture discussion with @Arial and @Josheb

 

[Josheb]

So? Tribulation comes in different levels. You should know that. Sheeze.

There only two verses in the entire New Testament that specifically, explicitly mention the phrase "great tribulation." I cited both. You have cited neither.

And the fact still remains that in the days of Noah those who did not understand until the flood came and took them all away (Jesus specific words) were the only ones mention as taken away. Jesus explicitly stated, "the flood came and destroyed them all." No other set of people are said to have been taken away. Therefore, when any modern futurist claims Jesus' use of "in the days of Noah" is a foreboding of the rapture they are incorrectly using the Jesus' words.

1. Why are you not acknowledging Jesus' words?
2. Why are you still defending the use of Matthew 24:37-38 to support the Dispensational Premillennial misuse of the verse to support the pre-tribulational rapture when the larger passage explicitly precludes such an interpretation?

As to the rest of that post..... I will not be collaborating with further digression.

 

[Josheb]

Does the rapture occur seven years prior to Christ's return?

..........in essence YES, the rapture occur 7 years prior.

Then everyone will know when Christ will return and, once again, you've contradicted yourself. No one can claim no one knows the day or time when Jesus will return AND simultaneously, at the same time, also claim specific event will serve as temporal markers counting down to Christ's return. That nonsense is always and everywhere self-contradictory!

 

[John Bauer]

I do not know. That was not my doing. I'd appreciate it you (or another mod) undid that. I'd undo it myself, but the post has timed out.

It actually was your doing. You wrote "in Post #39 the verse[s] speaks about the second coming," and the forum interprets [s] as the BB code command for strikethrough text.

I fixed it.

 

[CrowCross]

There only two verses in the entire New Testament that specifically, explicitly mention the phrase "great tribulation." I cited both. You have cited neither.

And the fact still remains that in the days of Noah those who did not understand until the flood came and took them all away (Jesus specific words) were the only ones mention as taken away. Jesus explicitly stated, "the flood came and destroyed them all." No other set of people are said to have been taken away. Therefore, when any modern futurist claims Jesus' use of "in the days of Noah" is a foreboding of the rapture they are incorrectly using the Jesus' words.

1. Why are you not acknowledging Jesus' words?
2. Why are you still defending the use of Matthew 24:37-38 to support the Dispensational Premillennial misuse of the verse to support the pre-tribulational rapture when the larger passage explicitly precludes such an interpretation?

As to the rest of that post..... I will not be collaborating with further digression.

Dude, I'm done with the flood and days of Noah....you didn't convince me. I opened my mind for you...and found no reason to take your path.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Dude, I'm done with the flood and days of Noah....you didn't convince me. I opened my mind for you...and found no reason to take your path.

Did you find a Scriptural reason not to accept his reasoning?

I hadn't seen one. If that time is a typological example of the time before Christ's second coming then what's the argument for leaving earth itself?

Since salvation in Christ is the type of ark for us, and Noah and his family didn't leave the earth...

Why are you dismissing it?

Christ is the Ark, we are sealed and secured inside our Lord and Savior, and depending on location we could come to no harm at all, not even in our physical state.

Where is your actual argument using Scripture?

 

[CrowCross]

Does the rapture occur seven years prior to Christ's return?

Then everyone will know when Christ will return and, once again, you've contradicted yourself.

Face-palm.....we don't know the time of the rapture/resurrection....and we don't know when Jesus will physically return.

Josheb...you're trying to hard.

No one can claim no one knows the day or time when Jesus will return AND simultaneously, at the same time, also claim specific event will serve as temporal markers counting down to Christ's return. That nonsense is always and everywhere self-contradictory!

We know the tribulation last for 7 years....I suppose one could wait for the rapture which we don't know the hour or day....then start their countdown....and get pretty close to guessing. Or they could wait for the abomination of desolation in the rebuilt temple then countdown from 3-1/2 years and get pretty close...

One thing we do know is that on April 13, 2029 asteroid Apophis has a chance of whacking into earth. This could be the following....
8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters.

So, you wanna have date naming fun? If the asteroid ends up striking earth instead of the "near miss"...and this happens mid-tribish...back up 3-1/2 years. When is that?

 

[CrowCross]

Did you find a Scriptural reason not to accept his reasoning?

Yes, I've already presented it. Want more?
19For those will be days of tribulation unseen from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has cut them short.

Things will be so bad Jesus has to come back and cut short the days....or no human would survive. Do you think people will be eating and drinking...partying and getting married at that time. That answer is no. This is why the time of Noah has to be pre-trib.
I also leave open the possibility for a Gen 6 transhuman tie into the verrse....which is ramping up. Kinda like mixing Iron with clay. Perhaps Dan 2:43.

I hadn't seen one. If that time is a typological example of the time before Christ's second coming then what's the argument for leaving earth itself?

Earth goes into judgement. Christians are not part of that judgement....didn't Jesus pay for your judgement on the cross?

Since salvation in Christ is the type of ark for us, and Noah and his family didn't leave the earth...

Aye yai yai...they didn't have to leave the earth...they had to be rescued from the judgement. It just so happens christians escape the wrath in the air at the rapture.....then go to heaven with Jesus.

Why are you dismissing it?

Christ is the Ark, we are sealed and secured inside our Lord and Savior, and depending on location we could come to no harm at all, not even in our physical state.

Where is your actual argument using Scripture?

Ahhhhhhhhh....I've been presenting scripture all along. Can you show me where I haven't addressd the pre-trib rapture and all that goes with it with scripture?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Ahhhhhhhhh....I've been presenting scripture all along. Can you show me where I haven't addressd the pre-trib rapture and all that goes with

None of what you said addressed the rapture or specifically refuted @Josheb

For example this:

But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has cut them short.

Specifically refutes your claim that the elect won't be on the earth, and you used no other Scripture in the post.

So when your own Scriptural choices refute your own claims, it's very hard to take you seriously as a result.

Did you have any other Scripture you thought helped your argument somehow?

 

[CrowCross]

None of what you said addressed the rapture or specifically refuted @Josheb

For example this:



Specifically refutes your claim that the elect won't be on the earth, and you used no other Scripture in the post.

So when your own Scriptural choices refute your own claims, it's very hard to take you seriously as a result.

Did you have any other Scripture you thought helped your argument somehow?

When I speak of the elect in Revelations I speak of the tribulation christians and/or the Jews. I'm not speaking of the christians who are caught up in the pre-trib rapture as they are not mentioned after Rev chapter 4.

I have noticed you have not presented your escatology...do you have one?