Young Earth/Old Earth

[EarlyActs]

I have a hard time believing God created the world to look old. I just can't imagine God scattering dinosaur bones around even though they never existed. Or ancient cities, deposits of coal, oil, ect...

Of course, God can do as He wills. But He is a God of order. Not confusion.

Does lots of layers of rock necessarily mean age? A good test is a small ball of molten material that gets loose at a forge and cools. It goes through layers of cooling very quickly. Our places with many layers do not necessarily mean age, just high rates. The same is true of sediment layers, like Grand Canyon. And there, the material had to be moved rapidly from elsewhere, to move at all.

Dr. Ager, U. Swansea, has also pointed out that 'Yosemite could form in 4-6 hours, including all the granitics.'

 

[EarlyActs]

I have a hard time believing God created the world to look old. I just can't imagine God scattering dinosaur bones around even though they never existed. Or ancient cities, deposits of coal, oil, ect...

Of course, God can do as He wills. But He is a God of order. Not confusion.

I can't think of anything that would detract from dinosaur existence. I believe they were part of the evil experiments going on before the flood; there was cross-breeding.

There are countless opisthotonics. Those are samples of dinosaurs that are smashed, heaved, crushed, bent-over backwards as the massive slurries of the cataclysm hit them.

There's lots of ancient city evidences.

 

[Arial]

The uncomfortable truth is that you're right: There is no biblical warrant for the belief that animals did not die prior to Adam's fall.

And there is no biblical evidence to warrant a belief that they did die. There actually is no reason to suppose that they did die. However there is plenty to suppose that they didn't die. As we are told that death entered our world because of sin and everything that would cause death with it. And in other posts these things have been brought out. No need to go over it again.

And that's because Adam was the federal head of humans only. His fall affected all those in Adam, and animals and plants were not.

His fall and federal headship caused all men to be sinners. The fall affected all of creation. Romans tells us this in Romans 8:18-25. Notice who subjected the creation to this futility. And then ask yourself why.

And we have Gen 1:29-30 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.

Is that the case since the fall? All of creation was affected by the fall. It is not only man who is being redeemed but through man's redemption God is also restoring creation, taking it out of the serpents hands. This is the promise and our hope, which is certain.

 

[Carbon]

Does lots of layers of rock necessarily mean age? A good test is a small ball of molten material that gets loose at a forge and cools. It goes through layers of cooling very quickly. Our places with many layers do not necessarily mean age, just high rates. The same is true of sediment layers, like Grand Canyon. And there, the material had to be moved rapidly from elsewhere, to move at all.

Dr. Ager, U. Swansea, has also pointed out that 'Yosemite could form in 4-6 hours, including all the granitics.'

Hear me out, but who cares about layers and such? If reading scripture and I see it's very possible and practical there was life and death before the fall, it's not evolution sneaking in, nor is it accepting evolution, though it might be evolutionists saying "See, here is proof!" But no it's not. It's God's world, if He made it seem to fit some areas of secular evolution to keep them entertained while lost, at least God's is nice enough to keep them busy. And under that delusion. God gives them over to a reprobate mind. Since they refuse to see God in His creation.

 

[Carbon]

And there is no biblical evidence to warrant a belief that they did die. There actually is no reason to suppose that they did die. However there is plenty to suppose that they didn't die.

Actually it's just the opposite, IMO

As we are told that death entered our world because of sin and everything that would cause death with it. And in other posts these things have been brought out. No need to go over it again.

We are told death came to all "man".

His fall and federal headship caused all men to be sinners. The fall affected all of creation. Romans tells us this in Romans 8:18-25. Notice who subjected the creation to this futility. And then ask yourself why.

It affected all of creation, yes. But plants and animals were already dying.

And we have Gen 1:29-30 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.

Amen.

Is that the case since the fall? All of creation was affected by the fall. It is not only man who is being redeemed but through man's redemption God is also restoring creation, taking it out of the serpents hands. This is the promise and our hope, which is certain.

No one is saying everything inst cursed because of the fall.

 

[Arial]

I appreciate your reasoning, I really do. But the central figure in scripture is Jesus Christ, and the gospel is taught throughout scripture. About Him redeeming His bride. His bride does not consist of animals and plants. And I know you know that also.

Of course Christ is central to the gospel, the entire Bible. This is just a conversation we happen to be having. ANd without redeemed man there can be no redeemed creation. And though creation is not His bride, it is where His bride will live in the what----new heaven and the new earth. God's kingdom.

 

[Carbon]

Of course Christ is central to the gospel, the entire Bible. This is just a conversation we happen to be having. ANd without redeemed man there can be no redeemed creation. And though creation is not His bride, it is where His bride will live in the what----new heaven and the new earth. God's kingdom.

Why do I feel you missed the point?

Maybe I missed yours?

 

[Sereni-tea]

Hear me out, but who cares about layers and such? If reading scripture and I see it's very possible and practical there was life and death before the fall, it's not evolution sneaking in, nor is it accepting evolution, though it might be evolutionists saying "See, here is proof!" But no it's not. It's God's world, if He made it seem to fit some areas of secular evolution to keep them entertained while lost, at least God's is nice enough to keep them busy. And under that delusion. God gives them over to a reprobate mind. Since they refuse to see God in His creation.

Evolution is not just a field of study that the lost are involved in. There are devout Christians working in this field as well. It is not right to dismiss them as being under a delusion. I say this not because I hold evolution as fact - I am undecided on this point.

 

[Arial]

Actually it's just the opposite, IMO

Well what can I say. We are all full of those.

We are told death came to all "man".

Yes it did. And not only to man but to every living thing. Why suppose everything but man died before the fall. Is there anything good about that? God said of every step of creation, that it was good. And there are not degrees of good with God.

It affected all of creation, yes. But plants and animals were already dying.

Where are the scriptures that say this?

No one is saying everything inst cursed because of the fall.

I was responding to someone who said the fall only affected man, not creation.

 

[Carbon]

Evolution is not just a field of study that the lost are involved in. There are devout Christians working in this field as well. It is not right to dismiss them as being under a delusion. I say this not because I hold evolution as fact - I am undecided on this point.

Oops, I meant those who deny God and are trying to prove the bible wrong. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Romans 1.

 

[Arial]

Why do I feel you missed the point?

Maybe I missed yours?

But the central figure in scripture is Jesus Christ, and the gospel is taught throughout scripture. About Him redeeming His bride. His bride does not consist of animals and plants. And I know you know that also.

Of course Christ is central to the gospel, the entire Bible. This is just a conversation we happen to be having. ANd without redeemed man there can be no redeemed creation. And though creation is not His bride, it is where His bride will live in the what----new heaven and the new earth. God's kingdom.

Where/how did we miss each others points?
I have to take a break for a bit. (That might be both our problem lol). Will be back later

 

[Carbon]

Well what can I say. We are all full of those.


Yes it did. And not only to man but to every living thing. Why suppose everything but man died before the fall. Is there anything good about that? God said of every step of creation, that it was good. And there are not degrees of good with God.

Where are the scriptures that say this?

I was responding to someone who said the fall only affected man, not creation.

Where does it say because of Adam's sin, animals and plants die?

It says death came to all men. Nothing else. All you are doing is assuming otherwise.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Oops, I meant those who deny God and are trying to prove the bible wrong. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Romans 1.

No worries. Glad it was a misunderstanding.

 

[David1701]

Because you tag them as fatally flawed, does not make it so. If ageing was part of God's plan, then ageing is good. The Fall was part of God's plan, or it wouldn't have happened, so the Fall will glorify God. But that's for a different discussion.

The best way to prove something about God is through His word while keeping in mind Deut 29:29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Of course ageing was not part of the original creation! Ageing is a result of a cell repair mechanism that no longer works properly.

 

[David1701]

As far as I understand it, most old-earth creationists don't believe in evolution, so they're certainly not trying to shoehorn it into the Bible.

There are many old-Earth creationists who do believe in macro evolution; in fact, that's why they believe in an old Earth (billions of years) in the first place.

 

[David1701]

Shifting the burden of proof is the refuge of those who are unable or unwilling to support or provide sufficient warrant justifying their claim. It can often be witnessed among Christians who confidently proclaim belief X, which has been believed and taught for as long as they can remember, but have never before had that belief questioned. There is a peculiar discomfort in coming to the realization that familiar prooftexts are not standing up under critical scrutiny.

The uncomfortable truth is that you're right: There is no biblical warrant for the belief that animals did not die prior to Adam's fall.



And that's because Adam was the federal head of humans only. His fall affected all those in Adam, and animals and plants were not.

Adam was also delegated head over the Earth. His fall affected all those in him and all that was under him.

 

[David1701]

Right because everything dies of something. Plus all the violence and evil in the world. It all because of the fall.

Amen.

 

[Carbon]

Of course ageing was not part of the original creation!

And how do you know that?

 

[Arial]

Where does it say because of Adam's sin, animals and plants die?

I have given my view on that and why see it the way I do from scripture.
My question to you: Where does it say they did die before the fall?

It says death came to all men. Nothing else. All you are doing is assuming otherwise.

But aren't you assuming that since it says all men die that means plants and animals were dying before the fall? That is all we can do as the Bible doesn't explicitly say, but I feel there is enough evidence within the Bible, a preponderance of evidence, that suggests more strongly that they did not. Not to mention, what were they going to die of?

 

[Arial]

And how do you know that?

For one thing they were created fully grown. They never even began an aging process.