Yahweh 301,302 or Trinity 301,302

[Runningman]

Then you disagree with the voluminous NT teaching in post #5 which presents Jesus as God.

Post #5 contains your teachings and your presentation is quite convoluted. You presented an interpretation of what you think the New Testament is saying by string together random verses that seem to have no shared context or meaning to create a doctrine.

The simplicity of the trinity being false is explicitly stated in John 17:3 where Jesus bluntly and undeniably said the only true God in the Father.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

 

[Eleanor]

There’s too much to concisely address and I disagree with your presentation of scripture in post #5. Otherwise, I agree with what the Bible actually says; it doesn’t contain your talking points though.

Okay, just deal with the NT apostolic testimony identifying Jesus as the YHWH (God) of the OT in:

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Heb quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John says the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John says the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John says Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 where John and Paul say the YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus.

To hear the apostles is to hear Jesus, and to reject the above teaching of the apostles is to reject the teaching of Jesus (Lk 10:16).

 

[Runningman]

Okay, just deal with the NT apostolic testimony identifying Jesus as the YHWH (God) of the OT in:

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Heb quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John says the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John says the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John says Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 where John and Paul say the YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus.

To hear the apostles is to hear Jesus, and to reject the above teaching of the apostles is to reject the teaching of Jesus (Lk 10:16).

Jesus isn't YHWH.

Read Psalm 110:1

1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”

Jesus is not equal to God nor is he greater because he isn't God.

1 Cor 15
24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Runningman,

Nothing to add to that and agreed. Due to the preponderance of evidence that Jesus isn't God, I have come to the conclusion that Jesus isn't God. Seems God, Jesus, and the disciples don't believe Jesus is God either.

I appreciate your comments and agree.

I have seen too many of these kind of discussions to remember. I have seen all of the alleged proofs for the Trinity.

I was going to answer you yesterday, but while I was looking for a video on Psalm 110:1 (and I am glad that you endorse a correct understanding of Psalm 110:1), I came across a debate held last Friday between a Trinitarian Pastor and a Unitarian on the subject "Do the NT Authors Identify Jesus as YHWH?". It ran for 1 hour 48 minutes. Both presented their topic well, but I endorsed most of what the Unitarian expounded. I should imagine that most Trinitarians would agree with the Pastor. I have similar beliefs on the Person of Jesus Christ as this Unitarian and have similar beliefs in many areas, but differ on some subjects, for example on the Atonement. Their fellowship and some of the individuals have had some contact with the Christadelphians, but have developed differently with some different ideas and I consider some of these subjects important.

I will let you answer @Eleanor 's list from Post #5 if you like. I have answered a few aspects, but the list keeps on recurring (whoops here it is again in Post #182)

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes, God is not man.

The Christian priesthood after the order of Melchizedek men and women prophesying in all the nations of the world (verse 4)

My paraphrase Psalms 110:1 The Lord (Father) said unto David's lord (the son of man (Jesus), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Footstool a metaphor for the gospel. Christ washing our feet.)

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalms 110: 4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

 

[Mr GLee]

Okay, just deal with the NT apostolic testimony identifying Jesus as the YHWH (God) of the OT in:

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Heb quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John says the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John says the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

I would offer, No such thing as apostolic testimonies they are the sent messengers called apostles, they brought the testimony of God. .no testimony of dying mankind.

At the beginning of the ministry of the Father and Son. Jesus, the son of man our lord (not Lord of lords). the Father.

Jesus was sent as an apostle into the wilderness by the Lord of lords our Father. . . the son of man sent as a scapegoat.

Everyone that calls on the name of the father not the son of man Jesus .Jesus delighted to do the will of the Father. . that some call YHWH for some reason or other.

 

[Runningman]

Greetings Runningman,

I appreciate your comments and agree.

I was going to answer you yesterday, but while I was looking for a video on Psalm 110:1 (and I am glad that you endorse a correct understanding of Psalm 110:1), I came across a debate held last Friday between a Trinitarian Pastor and a Unitarian on the subject "Do the NT Authors Identify Jesus as YHWH?". It ran for 1 hour 48 minutes. Both presented their topic well, but I endorsed most of what the Unitarian expounded. I should imagine that most Trinitarians would agree with the Pastor. I have similar beliefs on the Person of Jesus Christ as this Unitarian and have similar beliefs in many areas, but differ on some subjects, for example on the Atonement. Their fellowship and some of the individuals have had some contact with the Christadelphians, but have developed differently with some different ideas and I consider some of these subjects important.

I will let you answer @Eleanor 's list from Post #5 if you like. I have answered a few aspects, but the list keeps on recurring (whoops here it is again in Post #182)

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings Trevor, that sounds like an interesting debate and I would like to see it if it is online. Psalm 110:1 is a good verse that does explicitly identify Jesus as a separate person to YHWH, at His right hand, until his enemies are his footstool. This concept of Jesus being at YHWH's right hand is repeated enough throughout the New Testament to clear all confusion on the matter. I agree with many things Christadelphians believe, but I haven't looked into everything.

I would also add that Micah 5:2 is generally understood to be a prophecy concerning Jesus.

Micah 5​

2But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,​

who are small among the clans of Judah,​

out of you will come forth for Me​

One to be ruler over Israel—​

One whose origins are of old,​

from the days of eternity.​

​

However, if we look just a couple verses later we can see that Jesus is not YHWH again. Actually, it refers to YHWH as being his God. I have seen many cases where people do not believe that the Father is YHWH, but Jesus also said that the Father is his God and this is also a point that others in the New Testament have pointed out. John 20:17, Eph 1:3 , 2 Cor 1:3-4, 2 Cor 11:31, 1 Peter 1:3, etc

Micah 5​

4He will stand and shepherd His flock​

in the strength of the LORD,​

in the majestic name of the LORD His God.​

And they will dwell securely,​

for then His greatness will extend​

to the ends of the earth.​

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Runningman,

that sounds like an interesting debate and I would like to see it if it is online.

I am not sure if I am allowed to post this, but as it seems to air both sides I think it should be acceptable:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Eleanor]

Jesus isn't YHWH.

Tell it to Matthew, Mark 1:3, Luke, John and Paul who say he is YHWH in post #182.

 

[Eleanor]

I would offer, No such thing as apostolic testimonies they are the sent messengers called apostles, they brought the testimony of God. .

Apostolic testimony is the testimony of God.

no testimony of dying mankind.

At the beginning of the ministry of the Father and Son. Jesus, the son of man our lord (not Lord of lords). the Father.

Jesus was sent as an apostle into the wilderness by the Lord of lords our Father. . . the son of man sent as a scapegoat.

Everyone that calls on the name of the father not the son of man Jesus .Jesus delighted to do the will of the Father. . that some call YHWH for some reason or other.

 

[Runningman]

Tell it to Matthew, Mark 1:3, Luke, John and Paul who say he is YHWH in post #182.

Paul said Jesus has a God in 2 Cor 1:3, 2 Cor 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, Galatians 1:3

Micah 5:4 says Jesus’ God is YHWH.

Don’t agree? Take it up with Jesus and his God YHWH.

 

[Eleanor]

Paul said Jesus has a God in 2 Cor 1:3, 2 Cor 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, Galatians 1:3
Micah 5:4 says Jesus’ God is YHWH.
Don’t agree? Take it up with Jesus and his God YHWH.

I know nothing of Jesus apart from what the apostles reveal.

Indeed, the human Jesus did have a God, but the divine Jesus was God, as the abundant NT witness in post #5 testifies.

 

[Mr GLee]

Apostolic testimony is the testimony of God.

Why not say God's testimony it not as if he would share his glory with sent messengers, dying mankind

I don't know why some would call the Son of man eternal God

 

[Runningman]

I know nothing of Jesus apart from what the apostles reveal.

Indeed, the human Jesus did have a God, but the divine Jesus was God, as the abundant NT witness in post #5 testifies.

The human Jesus had a God? So after Jesus was resurrected as a flesh and bone man and was carried to heaven as a man, then what is he now and what happened to his body?

 

[Eleanor]

Why not say God's testimony it not as if he would share his glory with sent messengers, dying mankind

I don't know why some would call the Son of man eternal God

Do some homework on the meaning of the "Son of Man" in the OT.

 

[Eleanor]

The human Jesus had a God? So after Jesus was resurrected as a flesh and bone man and was carried to heaven as a man, then
what is he now and what happened to his body?

He is God incarnate in the God-man Jesus of Nazareth, the firstfruits of the physical resurrection of mankind, and the only God that can be seen with physical eyes.

All your objections cannot unseat the Biblical apostolic testimony presented in post #182.

 

[Mr GLee]

Do some homework on the meaning of the "Son of Man" in the OT.

I have done some .

It is like the term daughters of men .It denoted flesh and blood what the eyes see the temporal Sons of God is what they become when born from above . Two births earthy and the second not seen, eternal.

The testimony is of God not the apostle's .they are considered as nothing .The word they bring the are spirit life giving .the flesh profits for zero.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Eleanor,

Do some homework on the meaning of the "Son of Man" in the OT.

Yes, the following two are good examples of the Bible teaching concerning the humanity of Jesus:

Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Psalm 80:17 (KJV): Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Runningman]

He is God incarnate in the God-man Jesus of Nazareth, the firstfruits of the physical resurrection of mankind, and the only God that can be seen with physical eyes.

All your objections cannot unseat the Biblical apostolic testimony presented in post #182.

I could debunk your presentation of scripture in post 182 if I took the time to address it all, but I haven't because I don't believe addressing each point would keep anyone's attention who didn't like what they were reading. I know how this goes. I disprove the Trinity then others just deny that's what happened. I will make an exception for you if you are sure you want me to address post #182 in full. Thanks.

 

[Mr GLee]

He is God incarnate in the God-man Jesus of Nazareth, the firstfruits of the physical resurrection of mankind, and the only God that can be seen with physical eyes.

All your objections cannot unseat the Biblical apostolic testimony presented in post #182.

Spiritual resurrection. Spiritual gift .

Christ poured out His Holy Spirit of dying flesh. Jesus said his own corrupted flesh profits for zero.

It's not a physical resurrections. All die not receiving the promise of a new incorruptible body

Hebrew 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

When Jesus said a man must be born again he did not exclude himself. Marvel not.

Dying mankind in the place of our unseen eternal God .The abomination of desolation, makings Holy Spirit desolate void of His understanding .
Not the understanding the Son of man Jesus, he had no power to raise his own self let alone the whole Christian world.