Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

[CrowCross]

On the first issue bc the return is entirely secular and void of the Spirit—you know , that one Peter said quoting Joel 2 in Acts 2? The burst of vision and evsngelism? Yeah that one. Every OT vision of the restoration has the outpouring of the Spirit to reach the nations. Guess when that was.

Not Marxisist Jews setting up socialist youth camps that remove them from their parents.

The most current mission estimates on actual believers living in Israel is about 30K , mostly in isolation, or 0.003%. Tell me, does that sound like Acts 2?

Some Bible prophecy experts have said Peter was wrong! I laugh so much when I hear that, I hurt.

These issues are far more complicated than you are prepared for.

Are you prepared to explain why the events that are mentioned in Rev haven't happened yet?

 

[CrowCross]

I just realized you think this is an answer to Thess? How can you not see what the pastoral question is? He meant to provide comfort to those with dead friends or relatives. The events had to happen in the current temple and then the Lord Christ would slay him, but the Father changed how that unfolded too (with the delay).

With delay...showing the events in Revelation haven't happened yet.

 

[EarlyActs]

Are you prepared to explain why the events that are mentioned in Rev haven't happened yet?

If you need proof of Christian truth, a list of future things is dicey. You should be spending time on historical, established fact.

The Rev was written with 4 features you have not addressed:
1, for an understanding of some current events in Judea
2, how the enthroned Christ and the chaotic, hateful world can be one picture
3, how Jerusalem Judaism is a Levitical wife in adultery and rightfully gets stoned
4, how the kingdom of God was meant to be long and troubled, but nothing based in Judea. It is followed quickly by the NHNE.

If you don't understand those features, it is likely you will not get it at all.





Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT: “Patmos”

Using coded language John writes of the menace of Rome to Christians. Rome is portrayed as the instrument of “a great red dragon…” (ch 12).
This dragon gave authority to two beasts, a sea beast and an earth beast, to “make war on the saints…” (ch 13). The sea beast (from his location) is John’s code for the Roman emperor (who had just required all people to refer to him as “Lord and God”), while the earth beast represents the high priest of Asia, who officiates at the major cultic activities within in the province… The earth beast engages in magical arts to hoodwink the populace into worshipping the image of the “sea beast” (ch 13).
Although the dragon appears to be rampant on earth he is in fact, bound, limited, circumscribed through the period between Christ’s resurrection and his return—symbolically a thousand years (ch 20). Those who have lost their lives for Jesus’ sake, …reign with him throughout the millenium, sharing his victory over the dragon.
John’s book, therefore, was written above all to strengthen and encourage Christians facing harassment and persecution from Roman officials in the city s of the Province of Asia. John was deeply conscious of the political events in the wider world. He made many references, in particular, to the critical events of the sixties, but in tantalizing and elusive ways.
The massing of the dreaded Parthian cavalry near the Euphrates in AD 62 and the barely averted conflict with Rome’s eastern legions appears to be in mind on a number occasions (chs 6, 9). John develops horrific images of fiendish galloping cavalry based, apparently, on his knowledge of the Parthians and Euphrates region.
The great fire which devasted the world capital in AD 64 seems to have supplied John with imagery for the coming judgment of the “harlot city.” Despite her gaudy opulence and immorality and her immense wealth and power (inspired by memories of Claudius wife, the notorious Messalina?), God will bring upon her overwhelming destruction in a single day. (ch 18)
Once again John has apparently taken an event in recent history and converted it into powerfully vivid apocalyptic language.
Nero’s bloody onslaught on Christians which followed and was a direct result of the fire of Rome also provided much of John’s descriptive language. He wrote about the woman, the harlot Rome in ch 17 and 13.
The writer’s enigmatic description of the two witnesses/two prophets who were killed and who bodies lay in the streets of the great city (ch 11) is probably but not certainly) a reference to the martyr-deaths of the apostles Peter and Paul which occurred in Rome during Nero’s persecutions. (ch 11).
Nero’s own career ended in disaster. He was condemned by the Senate…and took his own life. There were widespread beliefs in Nero redivivus that may lay behind Johns’ description of one of the heads of the sea beast which revived. (ch 13)
Nero dominated the sixties. To that point in history he had been the greatest enemy of the Christians, satanic in his dimension of evil…
The eighth king is, in all probability, Domitian. …John was using the events of the recent past to depict the future…
In contrast to Domitian’s requirement to worship him, the true Lord of Lords and King of Kings declares a gospel from heaven in which we are to worship God. It is only in this century that scholars have begun to have an appreciation of John’s profound awareness of and audacious attack upon the theological pretentiousness of Roman civilization.
It is, in my opinion, of great significance that John used the dramatic historical events within his book. In earlier decades, Christians had expected Jesus to return at any moment (2 Th 2, 3). If one had experienced the firey destruction of the ‘eternal city’ in AD 64 and the bloodbath that followed, removing as it did the great apostles Peter and Paul, or the sacking of Mount Zion and desecration of the Holy Place in AD 70, it would easily have seemed that the end would come at any moment.
But…in fact John saw the return of Jesus as not occurring for some considerable time.

--pages 237—241.

 

[EarlyActs]

With delay...showing the events in Revelation haven't happened yet.

The delay is only of the worldwide judgement. Mt24A (to v29) is 1st cent. Judean, B is worldwide judgement. Very easy to see. These were originally meant to be one right after the other (cp Rom 2 and many others), but God delayed the WWJ.

The 21 events in the Rev could not possibly be the WWJ. The only thing that suffices is the lake of fire.

 

[EarlyActs]

I find that eschatologies that don't observe the shift of stage at Mt 24:29 are a trainwreck.

 

[EarlyActs]

With delay...showing the events in Revelation haven't happened yet.

You have not answered the direct pastoral question. As I said before, it is ridiculous to think the answer would be X000 in the future. The NT leaders clearly and sincerely believed that there was to be a pile of judgment on Israel in that generation, and so Paul was saying the world would end right after and those Thess believers would be safe because of the collection of all believers as it ended.

 

[EarlyActs]

One of the definitions of imminent, an archaic (old like the Bible is old, and Bible translations are old) is overhanging, or ready to take place. It doesn't mean it is going to happen now, but that it is ready to happen at any time. We don't know when that will be, so it is forever, ready to happen. However, once it starts, it is over quickly. And that is what I said. There is no delay. God already knows exactly when Jesus is going to return, Jesus said so Himself. And when asked by His disciples if He would restore the kingdom to Israel at this time, He told them it is not for them to know the times and seasons established [past tense] by the Father.

There is no delay. To us, it seems to be, but Peter already explained why it is not a delay. God does not view time as we do. So while God sees that the end will be 2000 years in the future, all we have been told, and all we know is that it is imminent. Ready to happen at any time. Why would there be a call to perseverance, if there is no need since it was going to happen with a couple decades of Jesus leaving? Or within several decades? I mean, if Jesus said, be ready for my return, it will be in 20 years... no perseverance required. However, how would you react if Jesus said, I'm not going to be back for 2000 years? And then you face torture and pain, and all you had to do was denounce Christ for it to stop? I mean, you know Jesus isn't coming in your lifetime, so that can be repaired. There is no sense of need for perseverance, if you know the person you are waiting for is not coming while you are alive. Especially when you know that that timeline will never change. How are you going to tell the people you are speaking to, that they need to endure, if there is no reason?

it will be in 20 years... no perseverance required.
Utter nonsense. It was precisely why they persevered. See Paul and his expectations. You guys really don't know NT realities that matter. Futurism is toxic and pop prophecy expertism is also. Desist! Resist! Learn history.

 

[CrowCross]

You have not answered the direct pastoral question.

I'm done with you.. You haven't answerd the question about the future events mentioned in Rev not happening as of yet.

 

[CrowCross]

it will be in 20 years... no perseverance required.
Utter nonsense. It was precisely why they persevered. See Paul and his expectations. You guys really don't know NT realities that matter. Futurism is toxic and pop prophecy expertism is also. Desist! Resist! Learn history.

NEXT

 

[TMSO]

No need to print them for me. They have been memorized in Greek for years.

The oath was fulfilled in the resurrection ; see esp Acts 13s talk at synagogue. Isaiah is quoted: the oaths made to David were transferred to Christ and are already fulfilled.

That is very specific to our question, right?

But did your rabbi know Acts 2? 13? Rom 1? Was he an NT Christian?

26 `Men, brethren, sons of the race of Abraham, and those among you fearing God, to you was the word of this salvation sent,
27 for those dwelling in Jerusalem, and their chiefs, this one not having known, also the voices of the prophets, which every sabbath are being read -- having judged [him] -- did fulfill,
28 and no cause of death having found, they did ask of Pilate that he should be slain,
29 and when they did complete all the things written about him, having taken [him] down from the tree, they laid him in a tomb;
30 and God did raise him out of the dead,
31 and he was seen for many days of those who did come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 `And we to you do proclaim good news -- that the promise made unto the fathers,
33 God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm it hath been written, My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee.
34 `And that He did raise him up out of the dead, no more to return to corruption, he hath said thus -- I will give to you the faithful kindnesses of David;
35 wherefore also in another [place] he saith, Thou shalt not give Thy kind One to see corruption,
36 for David, indeed, his own generation having served by the will of God, did fall asleep, and was added unto his fathers, and saw corruption,
37 but he whom God did raise up, did not see corruption.
38 `Let it therefore be known to you, men, brethren, that through this one to you is the forgiveness of sins declared,
39 and from all things from which ye were not able in the law of Moses to be declared righteous, in this one every one who is believing is declared righteous;
40 see, therefore, it may not come upon you that hath been spoken in the prophets:
41 See, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish, because a work I -- I do work in your days, a work in which ye may not believe, though any one may declare [it] to you.' (YLT)

I do not see the oath anywhere. What was the oath spoken of? "30 So because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one [ag]of his descendants on his throne,"

Please tell me where above it says anything about David's descendant on his throne, and that that prophecy has been fulfilled. It isn't there. Why? The kingdom has not yet been restored to Israel, as we see when Jesus answers the question of the disciples. Will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

 

[TMSO]

it will be in 20 years... no perseverance required.
Utter nonsense. It was precisely why they persevered. See Paul and his expectations. You guys really don't know NT realities that matter. Futurism is toxic and pop prophecy expertism is also. Desist! Resist! Learn history.

Futurism is not toxic. However, it is true that those people who are here saying Christ is there, or Christ is over here. Jesus is coming today, or He has already come... they are toxic. Harold Camping was terrible at this. I don't like a lot of the pop prophecy things, but occassionally they say things that we should pay attention to, if only at the edge of our thoughts. Why? It could point out to the fulfillment of a prophecy, depending on how it turns out. However, anyone who says that Jesus is coming at such and such a time, that Jesus is here or there, or that He has already come, they must be avoided at all cost, as Peter said.

 

[EarlyActs]

I'm done with you.. You haven't answerd the question about the future events mentioned in Rev not happening as of yet.

My answer is there. The Rev matches Mt 24A.

But you have decided with the pop prophecy experts that 1, the Bible is desperate for proof (we must grab the next thing in the news no matter how Spirit-less the ‘restored’ Israel is) and 2, that all things mentioned in the 21 judgements are literal and worldwide. Except you have decided stars are not stars.

If you dispose of those ideas , you will see my answer, and Barnet’s, and many others.

 

[EarlyActs]

Futurism is not toxic. However, it is true that those people who are here saying Christ is there, or Christ is over here. Jesus is coming today, or He has already come... they are toxic. Harold Camping was terrible at this. I don't like a lot of the pop prophecy things, but occassionally they say things that we should pay attention to, if only at the edge of our thoughts. Why? It could point out to the fulfillment of a prophecy, depending on how it turns out. However, anyone who says that Jesus is coming at such and such a time, that Jesus is here or there, or that He has already come, they must be avoided at all cost, as Peter said.

Paul and others said the total end was in that generation , until it wasn’t. So would you have avoided him until he didn’t?

According to Paul’s own summary of what limited himself to teaching, there is clearly something very wrong with futurism, which is figuring out our future, not proclaiming the suffering of Christ and his being preached, the 2 limits of Acts 26:22 about which you said there was nothing to see or no conflict with anything you say. But it is not futurist, nor is Acts 1:9! Acts is a cohesive unity.

 

[EarlyActs]

The question of futurism is: What does Heb 11-13 or 2P 3 day of the future? How could they both have nothing about the millennium or Israel in its land and a king and a temple?

 

[EarlyActs]

26 `Men, brethren, sons of the race of Abraham, and those among you fearing God, to you was the word of this salvation sent,
27 for those dwelling in Jerusalem, and their chiefs, this one not having known, also the voices of the prophets, which every sabbath are being read -- having judged [him] -- did fulfill,
28 and no cause of death having found, they did ask of Pilate that he should be slain,
29 and when they did complete all the things written about him, having taken [him] down from the tree, they laid him in a tomb;
30 and God did raise him out of the dead,
31 and he was seen for many days of those who did come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 `And we to you do proclaim good news -- that the promise made unto the fathers,
33 God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm it hath been written, My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee.
34 `And that He did raise him up out of the dead, no more to return to corruption, he hath said thus -- I will give to you the faithful kindnesses of David;
35 wherefore also in another [place] he saith, Thou shalt not give Thy kind One to see corruption,
36 for David, indeed, his own generation having served by the will of God, did fall asleep, and was added unto his fathers, and saw corruption,
37 but he whom God did raise up, did not see corruption.
38 `Let it therefore be known to you, men, brethren, that through this one to you is the forgiveness of sins declared,
39 and from all things from which ye were not able in the law of Moses to be declared righteous, in this one every one who is believing is declared righteous;
40 see, therefore, it may not come upon you that hath been spoken in the prophets:
41 See, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish, because a work I -- I do work in your days, a work in which ye may not believe, though any one may declare [it] to you.' (YLT)

I do not see the oath anywhere. What was the oath spoken of? "30 So because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one [ag]of his descendants on his throne,"

Please tell me where above it says anything about David's descendant on his throne, and that that prophecy has been fulfilled. It isn't there. Why? The kingdom has not yet been restored to Israel, as we see when Jesus answers the question of the disciples. Will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

You’re very difficult. V30 is the oath and just like 2:30-31, the resurrection fulfills the promise to David. The OT quotes there are to support this.

Then v34. If you’d just look up the OT quotes.

Then there is the blanket statement of 33. Are you trying not to see these things?

Their question and intent was utterly wrong. The answer is in the next line of Acts 1 . Stop smearing.

 

[CrowCross]

My answer is there. The Rev matches Mt 24A.

But you have decided with the pop prophecy experts that 1, the Bible is desperate for proof (we must grab the next thing in the news no matter how Spirit-less the ‘restored’ Israel is) and 2, that all things mentioned in the 21 judgements are literal and worldwide. Except you have decided stars are not stars.

If you dispose of those ideas , you will see my answer, and Barnet’s, and many others.

If you say so.

 

[EarlyActs]

If you say so.

Show me the Spirit at work in modern Israel like the restoration visions say, like Acts 2.

 

[EarlyActs]

Crow, those 2 things are not as substantial as the 4 about the Rev earlier. I don’t know if you saw them , said anything about them.

 

[CrowCross]

Show me the Spirit at work in modern Israel like the restoration visions say, like Acts 2.

Which Israel do you speak of?
The Zionist Israel?
The Kabbalists Israel?
The Orthodox Israel?
The Messianic Israel?
The Civilian Israel?

 

[CrowCross]

Crow, those 2 things are not as substantial as the 4 about the Rev earlier. I don’t know if you saw them , said anything about them.

I don't intend to speak to you about a Preterist view of Revelation. Those reason have already been expressed.