Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

[CrowCross]

Futurism is not toxic. However, it is true that those people who are here saying Christ is there, or Christ is over here. Jesus is coming today, or He has already come... they are toxic. Harold Camping was terrible at this. I don't like a lot of the pop prophecy things, but occassionally they say things that we should pay attention to, if only at the edge of our thoughts. Why? It could point out to the fulfillment of a prophecy, depending on how it turns out. However, anyone who says that Jesus is coming at such and such a time, that Jesus is here or there, or that He has already come, they must be avoided at all cost, as Peter said.

We have reached a time in human history where technology has the ability to support the entire beast system.

 

[EarlyActs]

But what are your answers? Is there futurism detail in Heb 11-13 or 2P3?

 

[EarlyActs]

My view is historical—delayed—final day. I am not a label and not preterist.

 

[CrowCross]

But what are your answers? Is there futurism detail in Heb 11-13 or 2P3?

I don't know. I didn't look. All you did was list several verses....in some kind of "Got-cha" fashion.

 

[CrowCross]

My view is historical—delayed—final day. I am not a label and not preterist.

Perhaps not, but definitely some sort of unknown subset. You don't believe Revelation is future and has already happened so that kinda pretty much puts you in that camp.

 

[EarlyActs]

I don't know. I didn't look. All you did was list several verses....in some kind of "Got-cha" fashion.

Why is there no details about Israel's futurism in Heb 11-13, 2 P 3? Mistakes? Amnesia?

 

[EarlyActs]

Perhaps not, but definitely some sort of unknown subset. You don't believe Revelation is future and has already happened so that kinda pretty much puts you in that camp.

Which part? That is always the question. That is why there is partial v full. Full is fraud and irrational. Why can't people see the similarity between Mt24A and the 21 judgements? And realize they are not the final day of judgement, and are mostly about Israel in that generation?

Every reference to its generation in Luke (dictation from Paul) is about vivid events in Israel and a few surrounding things. Lk 23:28 locks the quote of Hos 10 about 'wishing mountains would fall' into that generation; the current babies will be adults when this dismal thing occurs.

 

[CrowCross]

Which part? That is always the question. That is why there is partial v full. Full is fraud and irrational. Why can't people see the similarity between Mt24A and the 21 judgements? And realize they are not the final day of judgement, and are mostly about Israel in that generation?

Every reference to its generation in Luke (dictation from Paul) is about vivid events in Israel and a few surrounding things. Lk 23:28 locks the quote of Hos 10 about 'wishing mountains would fall' into that generation; the current babies will be adults when this dismal thing occurs.

Beep-Beep.back the truck up.....are you now telling me that much of Rev is still future? I get anyone should believe that the New Heavens and the New Earth are future....but are you now saying the other verses beyond verse 4 are future?

 

[EarlyActs]

Beep-Beep.back the truck up.....are you now telling me that much of Rev is still future? I get anyone should believe that the New Heavens and the New Earth are future....but are you now saying the other verses beyond verse 4 are future?

The 21 judgements match Mt 24A in 1st cent. Judea. then there has been a delay, explained by 2P3. (The final day of judgement was expected in 24:29.) In the future, this current kingdom of Christ will be harrassed and God will come in final judgement and we will be with him in the NHNE, while unbelievers will be in their prison of fire.

 

[CrowCross]

The 21 judgements match Mt 24A in 1st cent. Judea.

List them.

 

[EarlyActs]

List them.

Famines, wars, disease, collapses, revolutions, slaughter, persecutions...but the Rev is not exact or literal, as you know from "adjusting" stars to mean something else. But these awful things are shared between the 21 and Mt 24A. The most shocking thing for the disciples is hearing that the kingdom arrives but the conditions are horrendous; they expected a playground.

Barnett's list is better than mine:





Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT: “Patmos”

Using coded language John writes of the menace of Rome to Christians. Rome is portrayed as the instrument of “a great red dragon…” (ch 12).
This dragon gave authority to two beasts, a sea beast and an earth beast, to “make war on the saints…” (ch 13). The sea beast (from his location) is John’s code for the Roman emperor (who had just required all people to refer to him as “Lord and God”), while the earth beast represents the high priest of Asia, who officiates at the major cultic activities within in the province… The earth beast engages in magical arts to hoodwink the populace into worshipping the image of the “sea beast” (ch 13).
Although the dragon appears to be rampant on earth he is in fact, bound, limited, circumscribed through the period between Christ’s resurrection and his return—symbolically a thousand years (ch 20). Those who have lost their lives for Jesus’ sake, …reign with him throughout the millenium, sharing his victory over the dragon.
John’s book, therefore, was written above all to strengthen and encourage Christians facing harassment and persecution from Roman officials in the city s of the Province of Asia. John was deeply conscious of the political events in the wider world. He made many references, in particular, to the critical events of the sixties, but in tantalizing and elusive ways.
The massing of the dreaded Parthian cavalry near the Euphrates in AD 62 and the barely averted conflict with Rome’s eastern legions appears to be in mind on a number occasions (chs 6, 9). John develops horrific images of fiendish galloping cavalry based, apparently, on his knowledge of the Parthians and Euphrates region.
The great fire which devasted the world capital in AD 64 seems to have supplied John with imagery for the coming judgment of the “harlot city.” Despite her gaudy opulence and immorality and her immense wealth and power (inspired by memories of Claudius wife, the notorious Messalina?), God will bring upon her overwhelming destruction in a single day. (ch 18)
Once again John has apparently taken an event in recent history and converted it into powerfully vivid apocalyptic language.
Nero’s bloody onslaught on Christians which followed and was a direct result of the fire of Rome also provided much of John’s descriptive language. He wrote about the woman, the harlot Rome in ch 17 and 13.
The writer’s enigmatic description of the two witnesses/two prophets who were killed and who bodies lay in the streets of the great city (ch 11) is probably but not certainly) a reference to the martyr-deaths of the apostles Peter and Paul which occurred in Rome during Nero’s persecutions. (ch 11).
Nero’s own career ended in disaster. He was condemned by the Senate…and took his own life. There were widespread beliefs in Nero redivivus that may lay behind Johns’ description of one of the heads of the sea beast which revived. (ch 13)
Nero dominated the sixties. To that point in history he had been the greatest enemy of the Christians, satanic in his dimension of evil…
The eighth king is, in all probability, Domitian. …John was using the events of the recent past to depict the future…
In contrast to Domitian’s requirement to worship him, the true Lord of Lords and King of Kings declares a gospel from heaven in which we are to worship God. It is only in this century that scholars have begun to have an appreciation of John’s profound awareness of and audacious attack upon the theological pretentiousness of Roman civilization.
It is, in my opinion, of great significance that John used the dramatic historical events within his book. In earlier decades, Christians had expected Jesus to return at any moment (2 Th 2, 3). If one had experienced the firey destruction of the ‘eternal city’ in AD 64 and the bloodbath that followed, removing as it did the great apostles Peter and Paul, or the sacking of Mount Zion and desecration of the Holy Place in AD 70, it would easily have seemed that the end would come at any moment.
But…in fact John saw the return of Jesus as not occurring for some considerable time.

--pages 237—241.

 

[EarlyActs]

I find many commentaries where Mt24A and parallels are called 'the little apocalypse.' That means they were meant to be a miniature of the Rev's 21 judgements.

 

[EarlyActs]

If anyone thinks "Bible prophecy is really exact!" just look at this:

So[c] I looked,[d] and here came[e] a white horse! The[f] one who rode it[g] had a bow, and he was given a crown,[h] and as a conqueror[i] he rode out to conquer.

The first seal is simply the fact of war. This is not an "event." It does not happen at some exact time X000 years in the future. It has been happening, and did happen during the first century, too. It is a feature, or characterization, of the coming time. (Actually you might say #1 is the fact of conquering and the 2nd is the fact of war.)

 

[CrowCross]

I find many commentaries where Mt24A and parallels are called 'the little apocalypse.' That means they were meant to be a miniature of the Rev's 21 judgements.

I can find Unitarian commentaries that say Jesus isn't God....despite those commentaries being false.

 

[EarlyActs]

I can find Unitarian commentaries that say Jesus isn't God....despite those commentaries being false.

You’re way off the center. Eschatologies are not as fixed as a doctrine of Christ divinity.

In Messianic Jews for ex., belief in the modern land of Israel as sacred is as fixed to them as justification by Christ or the Trinity. But the NT has no such feature, which is why many of them say things like “Galatians should not be in the NT.”

Most sound scholarship does not support what you are saying about the Rev. Yet it affirms that Christ was God in the flesh, and accomplished justification, and will judge the world on the last day.

Your beliefs are completely missing from Acts 13or 26 or Heb 12-13 or 2P3. The “millennium” is hardly as settled as those. And Mt24A (to v29) is easily found to be 1st cent. Judean.

I assume you know the significance of Acts 13 and 26 in a historical sense, but maybe not. I did not even know about Acts 13 until my last year in a fundamentalist dispensationalist futurist Bible college—bc it conflicts with that sect of people who love Jesus, like you.

 

[Mr GLee]

But what are your answers? Is there futurism detail in Heb 11-13 or 2P3?

Preterist teach the dating of the book of Revelation is of vital importance. The day and hour no one knows or we would have a need to know.

Believer are not of the number those that number of days or count people. Christians walk by the power of His faith the unseen things of God.

David 's rebellion putting his trust in the things seen the temporal. He numbed the troops and many died. No sign was given as to the last day to wonder after . we have prophecy. No need for wondering when, how many, why??? Christ will leave like a thief in the night on the last day under the Sun

2 Samuel 24:10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O Lord, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

The Amil, signified position works the best I believe.

For the first three times beginning in Psalms. God uses the metaphor "thousand years" in parables to represent unknown, not revealed hidden from dying mankind.

He does not change from speaking in parables the signied tongue of God to the literal In the last chapter Revelation . The most signified book when all the metaphors come together.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

As a day. . not is a day (God lives outside of time) as denotes a parable the signified tongue is in view.

The signified understanding of parables called hidden manna in Revelation 2:17

The Amil position (no literal thousand years) works the best .No need for dying mankind to dispear for a literal thosans yer and return in the same body theyleftr

Revelation 1:1King James Version The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Parables teach Christians how to walk by faith the unseen things of God.

The apostles learned how to walk by faith the hard way. In that way I believe as a example helping us today to understand . . how can we hear His understanding?

 

[TMSO]

My answer is there. The Rev matches Mt 24A.

But you have decided with the pop prophecy experts that 1, the Bible is desperate for proof (we must grab the next thing in the news no matter how Spirit-less the ‘restored’ Israel is) and 2, that all things mentioned in the 21 judgements are literal and worldwide. Except you have decided stars are not stars.

If you dispose of those ideas , you will see my answer, and Barnet’s, and many others.

If the prophecies in the Old Testament were literal, why shouldn't the prophecies in the New Testament be literal? When did God change? I thought He was immutable?

I haven't going with pop prophecy experts, or I would be fawning over Harold Camping, and even Bannon Howse, who banned me from his facebook page in less than 5 minutes. (A literal five minutes, not figurative.)

I thought we had already decided that the nation of Israel (which is restored prior to the end times) is Spirit-less, while it is the remnant that is elect? (Except that Josheb and you have proven there is no elect "at this present time", because that was only for Paul present time.)

 

[TMSO]

We have reached a time in human history where technology has the ability to support the entire beast system.

Pretty much. And the technology is where most if not all prophecies in Revelation can be fulfilled as written.

 

[EarlyActs]

Preterist teach the dating of the book of Revelation is of vital importance. The day and hour no one knows or we would have a need to know.

Believer are not of the number those that number of days or count people. Christians walk by the power of His faith the unseen things of God.

David 's rebellion putting his trust in the things seen the temporal. He numbed the troops and many died. No sign was given as to the last day to wonder after . we have prophecy. No need for wondering when, how many, why??? Christ will leave like a thief in the night on the last day under the Sun

2 Samuel 24:10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O Lord, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

The Amil, signified position works the best I believe.

For the first three times beginning in Psalms. God uses the metaphor "thousand years" in parables to represent unknown, not revealed hidden from dying mankind.

He does not change from speaking in parables the signied tongue of God to the literal In the last chapter Revelation . The most signified book when all the metaphors come together.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

As a day. . not is a day (God lives outside of time) as denotes a parable the signified tongue is in view.

The signified understanding of parables called hidden manna in Revelation 2:17

The Amil position (no literal thousand years) works the best .No need for dying mankind to dispear for a literal thosans yer and return in the same body theyleftr

Revelation 1:1King James Version The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Parables teach Christians how to walk by faith the unseen things of God.

The apostles learned how to walk by faith the hard way. In that way I believe as a example helping us today to understand . . how can we hear His understanding?

Your first 3 lines are three very different topics. Please put together a unified statement and keep it short.

No one can switch topics each new line and have any idea what you mean.

You should also reread what a new question referred to. You say nothing about Heb 11-13.

 

[TMSO]

Paul and others said the total end was in that generation , until it wasn’t. So would you have avoided him until he didn’t?

According to Paul’s own summary of what limited himself to teaching, there is clearly something very wrong with futurism, which is figuring out our future, not proclaiming the suffering of Christ and his being preached, the 2 limits of Acts 26:22 about which you said there was nothing to see or no conflict with anything you say. But it is not futurist, nor is Acts 1:9! Acts is a cohesive unity.

We are proof that the total end hasn't happened yet, or we wouldn't be here. Sin would not be here. Satan would not be here. The first earth would not be here. (It passed away BEFORE Revelation 21:1, which speaks of what comes after the total end.)

Jesus coming is imminent, in that it is ready to happen at any time. That is why we are to be out there spreading the gospel of the kingdom. There will come a time when we can't do that anymore. (For good reason.) However, what matters is whether we have fulfilled His calling and command.