Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

[Josheb]

I honestly can't believe you're asking this question. Seriously. How would history not record such an event(s)

It did. You do not accept its account. This goes all the way back to the claim, "None of Revelation has happened," and the greater reality what you actually mean is, "None of Revelation has happened as my doctrines say it must happen." You want a historical record proving modern futurism true, not a historical record proving the Bible true. There's a huge difference between what the Bible teaches and what modern futurism teaches. Modern futurism teaches Jesus comes to physically live on earth prior to the millennium. The book of Revelation never states Jesus is physically on earth until the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven after the thousand years of Revelation is completed.

If I ask you, "Can you should me a verse that explicitly states Jesus is physically living on the earth prior to the thousand years?" the answer is "No."

But, conversely, if you ask me the same question about my views, "Can you, Josh, show me a verse that explicitly states Jesus is in heaven prior to the thousand years?" then my answer is, "Yes, and I can show you more than one. Not only can I show everyone and anyone multiple verses explicitly reporting Jesus is in heaven prior to the thousand years............., I can also provide a verse explicitly stating when he comes down from heaven to earth!"

To which you go, "Meh. Nothing in Revelation has happened." and then you change the subject to, "Show me the history proving events in Revelation have happened."

Why? You do not believe scripture. Why would you believe secular history? You've created this impenetrable insulated self-fulfilling cocoon whereby you never need to look at anything objectively. Requests for, "Show me ______________," is code for "Waste your time on me." because you do not genuinely want the answers and you have already decided no one can provide you evidence your interpretation has already happened. And you're right! No one can provide a history proving future events have already happened. The question itself is non-sensical. Lots of people can provide proof past events have happened, though. The problem is modern futurism rejects them all and interprets none of Revelation to be fulfilled, even though verse 1:19 explicitly states much of it had already happened before John wrote down the vision!

Revelation 1:19
Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

1. Things he'd seen
2. Things that are
3. Things that will take place afterward.

The book itself tells the reader two-third of it had already been seen and already existed at the time of the writing!

None of Revelation has happened.

Scripture says much of it has.

None of Revelation has happened.

Verse 1:19 states otherwise.

Show me the secular history.

Why? You do not believe scripture. You're not going to believe secular accounts.

Why wouldn't someone write it down in history.

They did! You've ignored it all and adhered to a modern futurism invented in the 19th century that overtly denies the fact scripture never reports Jesus physically on earth until chapter 21 of Revelation..... after the the thousand years.

Show me the history.

Okay. When the Romans swept through Israel the killed everyone and the bodies were strewn all over the countryside. The floated in the seas in Israel, turning the water red and killing all the fish. These are facts of history, but modern futurism thinks "sea" is a reference to the oceans of the Atlantic and Pacific and not the seas in Israel. They demand proof all the fish in the oceans, not the seas have died. They demand proof the tribulation was worse than anything ever even though they KNOW the flood of Noah left only eight survivors. They claim the entire world will see destruction and appeal to a verse that says a "third" is destroyed, not the whole world.

Until those that claim Rev has already happened...preterist... untill you can show me historical records of such a world wide tribulation...you'll never convince me.

The Bible never states the tribulation is worldwide. That is a fiction of modern futurism. What the text of scripture states is the tribulation will be unlike anything the world has seen, not that the tribulation would be worldwide. That world had never seen a nuclear bomb dropped civilians, but this world has seen horrific events.

None of them destroyed the whole world. Humans are still around to tell of it......... just as they did when the Zealots took over Jerusalem and the Romans waged a seven-year long war against the chronically covenant-breaking Jews. Do you think it is a coincidence the war last seven years and the tribulation lasts the same length? The history is right there for anyone and everyone to read but.....

untill you can show me historical records of such a world wide tribulation...you'll never convince me

No, the history is there but you do not care. You won't be convinced because your allegiance is to the man-made doctrine invented in the 19th century (another fact of history), NOT scripture and NOT the facts of history.

Is the tribulation about survival?

Red herring. Whether or not it's about survival is a dodge. The fact is Revelation never has Jesus physically coming to earth until chapter 21, which is after the thousand years. The fact is Revelation 7:14 explicitly states Christians went through the great tribulation. They were NOT raptured off the planet and Jesus did not come to get them at any point...... other than to resurrect them into heaven where they are said to sit before His thrown serving Him.

In fact when Jesus returns it will be like the days of Noah.

In the days of Noah it was those who were taken away by the flood that were destroyed. It was the ones who remained behind that continued to live in a covenant relationship with God. Once again the premillennial view denies what is plainly stated in scripture and inserts its own doctrine as authoritative over God's word.

There are many rabbit holes to go down on this issue....but of course your rabbit hole is the only correct possibility.

Another red herring. There are no rabbit holes outside of modern futurism. Modern futurism invents the rabbit holes to keep people from facing the facts of scripture.

 

[Josheb]

The earth is the whole world.

Yes, the whole earth is the whole world, but the verse you quoted says a third of the earth, NOT the whole of it. I asked you to prove the whole earth would be destroyed. You have yet to prove that claim. A third of the earth is not the whole earth...... and if it were the whole earth there'd be no one left to inhabit it.

The claim of worldwide destruction is not what scripture teaches and, logically speaking, it is self-contradictory.


Nowhere does the book of Revelation state Jesus is physically living on earth prior to the thousand years and when it does explicitly report he comes it is long after the thousand years. I, unlike you, can actually point to scripture confirming what I posted.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again CrowCross,

Yes, some is symbolic...such as the lampstands in Rev 1. But some will be literal

Our Senior Sunday School Class considered the Book of Revelation over a number of years. I gained a reasonable overall assessment from a Continuous Historic Premillennial perspective, but had some difficulty with the detailed history and also many of the symbols that were used. One figure that I am happy with is the use of a particular river to signify the nation that the river runs through. In the following the Kingdom and military might of Assyria and their conquests is likened to a river in flood:

Isaiah 8:7–8 (KJV): 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: 8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

The same figure could be used for the contraction of an Empire:

Revelation 16:12 (KJV): And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

I believe that the above is mainly depicting the drying up of the Ottoman Empire and one specific occasion was the removal of the Ottoman power from Palestine, allowing the more ready return of the Jews and the establishment of the nation of Israel.

The following is a map of the Ottoman Empire in 1914, and they not only occupied Palestine, but were possessors of the Euphrates River, but were pushed back on both these fronts during WW1.

View attachment 847

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Mr GLee]

I would offer. World . . . Mankind's existence or world , the "affairs of life," a "long period of time,"

Satan the king of this world (lust eye, lust flesh) .The two building blocks to false pride. He would make it about what the eyes see the temporal things. Again the word is used in more than one way The whole Jewish world as a their existence or the whole Gentile world

From the garden, Eden's world .Eden the pleasant city (pleasant to the eye) .

Adam and Eves world . Four living waters of the word going out whole world .North, South, East and West (gospel)

Geneiss2: 8-10 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.


Demonym. People know by places of residents of the city not literal desolate cursed land but the unseen married land (Isaiah 62) used in parables.

Christian the new name the Father named his bride in Acts previously calling her Israel . Christian .literally " Residents of the city of Christ" Prepared for His wife the church named after her husband Christ. . the Holy Spirit of the Father (Abba)

The whole world . . . all its residents of this corrupted dying creation will be replaced by a new one.

It would seem Amillennialism is the first recorded Christian eschatology, From both Catholicism and Protestantism at the time of 15th century reformation. A carbon copy of the 1st century reformation . When did others eschatology's come in play?

The Amil position (signified) works the best to reconcile the Revelation (signified prophecy). Comparing the spiritual invisible to same spiritual understanding of Christ called. faith(power) to faith (Power) .
Many fofit the prescrition below neded to rightly divide the parable many literalize the signified prophecy used in parables
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The use of parts throughout the bible in every signified parable.

Zechariah 13:7-9King James Version7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold (faith) is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

In that parable two parts 2/3 .666 represent the unredeemed .

1 part 1/3 .333 born again Christians

It would seem Amillennialism is the first recorded eschatology, From both camps Catholicism and Protestantism, at the time of 15th century reformation a carbon copy of the 1st century reformation .

When did others eschatology come in play?

The Amil position works best to reconcile the mysteries of Faith (Christ's) The comparing the spiritual not seen to spiritual understanding called living faith (power of God)

Revelation. the signified understanding

No need for a literal thousand years .

Remember its the unbelievers (fools) Christ calls a evil generation. They seek after sign as if they were prophecy God's living abiding word.

No sign was given to wonder after.

 

[Josheb]

Greetings again CrowCross,

Our Senior Sunday School Class considered the Book of Revelation over a number of years. I gained a reasonable overall assessment from a Continuous Historic Premillennial perspective, but had some difficulty with the detailed history and also many of the symbols that were used. One figure that I am happy with is the use of a particular river to signify the nation that the river runs through. In the following the Kingdom and military might of Assyria and their conquests is likened to a river in flood:

Isaiah 8:7–8 (KJV): 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: 8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

The same figure could be used for the contraction of an Empire:

Revelation 16:12 (KJV): And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rome was not a strong nation that came over its channels? It's conglomerate of mercenary armies from ten nations north, south, east, and west of Israel doesn't qualify? Or perhaps Assyria was the fulfillment, and the sixth vial was something that had already been seen (Rev. 1:19).

I believe that the above is mainly depicting the drying up of the Ottoman Empire and one specific occasion was the removal of the Ottoman power from Palestine, allowing the more ready return of the Jews and the establishment of the nation of Israel.


The following is a map of the Ottoman Empire in 1914, and they not only occupied Palestine, but were possessors of the Euphrates River, but were pushed back on both these fronts during WW1.

View attachment 847

Kind regards
Trevor

Oh, look, @CrowCross, proof something in Revelation has already happened!

 

[TMSO]

Not always, and not even most of the time in scripture, either.

THe earth is the whole world and it is for under half of the occurrences of the Hebrew word. Why? Because most of the time it is translated as land. It is nice to know that in Genesis what it says was that God's Spirit floated over the water of the land of Judah.

God often spoke of the land of Israel as "the earth" or "the land" (tes ges), even addressing the earth personally, as in Jeremiah 22:29. "O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord..." "The earth" (tes ges) being addressed was the land of Judah, where Coniah was going to want to return to his own homeland, but would be left to die in another country instead.

According to the lexicon, it isn't O earth, earth, earth.." but "O land, land, land.." It is a translation thing.

God again addresses "His land" of Israel and His people in Joel 2:18- 21, saying "Fear not, O land;" (ge) "be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things." This was a particular blessing that was coming for the inhabitants of the land of Israel and its people.

In Joel they got it right, and picked the proper translation of the word.

 

[CrowCross]

Revelation 16:12 (KJV): And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

I believe that the above is mainly depicting the drying up of the Ottoman Empire and one specific occasion was the removal of the Ottoman power from Palestine, allowing the more ready return of the Jews and the establishment of the nation of Israel.

Currently it appears that the Euphrates River is drying up literally...like Rev 16 suggest will happen. You can do your own study.
The question is, who is the King of the east? China?

Is this related to the following from Rev 9?
13Then the sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God14saying to the sixth angel with the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.

Q...If Revelation happened...when did this happen? When was a 1/3 of mankind killed? maybe Josheb can tell us.
Q...Are the two hundred million troops the Chinese or are they some sort of demon army?

 

[Josheb]

Currently it appears that the Euphrates River is drying up literally...like Rev 16 suggest will happen. You can do your own study.
The question is, who is the King of the east? China?

Is this related to the following from Rev 9?
13Then the sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God14saying to the sixth angel with the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.

Q...If Revelation happened...when did this happen? When was a 1/3 of mankind killed? maybe Josheb can tell us.
Q...Are the two hundred million troops the Chinese or are they some sort of demon army?

This is not the first time the Euphrates has been dry. The river also went dry (in parts) in 2014. It is common for rivers to be diverted and that has happened multiple times with the Euphrates. Saddam Husein used the river to control the marsh area Arabs. Turkey has denied access more than once, causing the river to dry up for political gain. Every time the water levels in the Euphrates drop harbingers of doom claim the apocalypse is upon us.

The question is, who is the King of the east? China?

No. There's no mention of China in the Bible. When the Bible speaks of the east it invariably means the area we now call Jordan, Iraq, and Saudia Arabia, and never China. Biblical references to kings of the east include Moab, the Amorites, Babylon, and Syria, not China. The only reason anyone even considers China is because they are the only country with a 2-million-member army. Just search "kings" and "east" in your Bible software and see for yourself.

Q...If Revelation happened...when did this happen?

Well, the Euphrates running dry has happened many times and if that is the measure then that portion of Revelation has happened more than once.

When was a 1/3 of mankind killed? maybe Josheb can tell us.

A third of the world's population was killed during the bubonic plague in the mid-1300s. It is estimated as many as 200 million of the earth's 375 million people died (that be more than 50%, not 33%). Ironically, The Euphrates also dried up in the mid-1300s, too.

Q...Are the two hundred million troops the Chinese or are they some sort of demon army?

Neither. The scriptures states "armies" plural. It's not one army that is 200 million people large; it is multiple armies. It's not likely the number in Revelation is literal because in most militaries only 1/3 serve in direct combat roles. For every single individual soldier there are 2-3 military personnel serving in a support capacity that never see combat. In other words, China's entire military may count 2 million, but two-thirds of it is support members, not combat embers. Revelation 9 specifies the horsemen (calvary) alone counts 200 million.

So modern Armies will first have to convert to riding horses (not humvees, trucks, or tanks). Currently, the total number of all horses living on the planet is only 60 million. 120 million more horses will have to be bred and raised for combat before Revelation 9 is even close to becoming fulfilled in the future if the verse is to be taken literally. Typically speaking, the historical portion of an army that is devoted to calvary is between 10-15%. If this is true of Revelation 9 then the 200 million horses are just 10-15% of a much, much larger set of armies and that would mean the total combined number of military members in Rev. 9's armies are about 1.3 billion. All of the militaries in the entire world total 27 million personnel. 1.3 billion people is 16% of the world's entire population. In other words, if the 200 million men on horses in Revelation 9 is taken literally then 120 million more horses will have to be bred and trained for combat and more than a billion more military personnel bred and trained.

You guys have a long way to wait so pull up a chair and take a break. Or, better yet, stop wasting time on end-times speculation and get busy living out the gospel evangelically so a billion more people come to Christ instead of dying outside the dry Euphrates riverbed.

maybe Josheb can tell us.

I can and have but none of it is believed, is it?

Even though the reality of a literal reading of Revelation 9's sixth trumpet is preposterous you all prefer modern-newscast-informed rank speculation over a more exegetical, scripture-informing-scripture alternative. Both of you will experience the exact same results the first modern futurists of the 19th century experienced.

You'll die disappointed, never having seen any of it happened, and accountable for every vain word posted.

 

[CrowCross]

This is not the first time the Euphrates has been dry. The river also went dry (in parts) in 2014. It is common for rivers to be diverted and that has happened multiple times with the Euphrates. Saddam Husein used the river to control the marsh area Arabs. Turkey has denied access more than once, causing the river to dry up for political gain. Every time the water levels in the Euphrates drop harbingers of doom claim the apocalypse is upon us.

Yup....the drying up is still future.

No. There's no mention of China in the Bible.

They are the only country that can field hat size of an army...

A third of the world's population was killed during the bubonic plague in the mid-1300s.

Oh, OK, now were back to the entire world as I believe is spoken of in Rev rather than a "local" event.

How ever this plague doesn't fit into the Rev narrative.

 

[3 Resurrections]

According to the lexicon, it isn't O earth, earth, earth.." but "O land, land, land.." It is a translation thing.

These terms of "earth" and "land" are not mutually exclusive of each other. The tribulations which Revelation describes for "the earth" (tes ges) is the same as for the "land" that Christ spoke about in Luke 21:20-24, when He said, "There shall be great distress in the land (tes ges) and wrath upon THIS people" who were in Judea. That Great Tribulation period was going to take place in "the land", with the disciples in that nation being warned to flee from the nation of Judea and Jerusalem to avoid that Great Tribulation period. If they did not, they would either fall by the sword, or be led captive into all the other nations of the habitable world.

This shows us quite clearly that "the land" (tes ges) in this case was definitely not the whole world at large. In this particular context, "the land" (tes ges) is narrowly defined as being the land of Judea, including Old Jerusalem whose buildings would be torn down and laid even with the ground in AD 70.

 

[3 Resurrections]

This is not the first time the Euphrates has been dry. The river also went dry (in parts) in 2014.

It wasn't the literal Euphrates River that John intended to speak about. This was symbolic language connected to Jerusalem as "Mystery Babylon" being attacked by the Idumean army of 20,000 horsemen under 4 generals in AD 67/68 (the "two myriads of myriads" under the "4 messengers" of Rev. 9:15-16).

The old city of Babylon (when it was an empire) was essentially bisected by the Euphrates River which ran through the city, with the gates submerged in the river to prevent an enemy from entering the city via that Euphrates River. Cyrus came and conquered the city of Babylon in a single night when he lowered the level of the Euphrates by diverting its flow into several other channels. God had predicted that He would "dry up the rivers" for Cyrus and "open before him the two leaved gates, and the gates shall not be shut". God promised to "break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron" for Cyrus, His anointed (Isaiah 44 & 45). This made it possible for Cyrus' army to walk right under those river's gates the night of Belshazzar's drunken feast and take down the Babylonian empire.

Symbolically, Old Jerusalem was referred to as "Mystery Babylon" in Revelation. The language in Rev. 16:12 of the Euphrates being "dried up" is reflective of Cyrus taking the old city of Babylon in that single nighttime attack by lowering the Euphrates river's level . Jerusalem as "Mystery Babylon" was likewise attacked in a single nighttime invasion by the Idumeans who had been forbidden to enter the city's main eastern gates by the two former high priests - Ananus and Joshua (the "two witnesses" of Rev. 11). Traitorous Zealots within Jerusasalem who hated governor Ananus and Joshua's restrictions of their Zealot faction waited until the night of the storm and the earthquake to saw open those city gates and release the Idumean army of horsemen into the city and to murder Ananus' forces.

The way of getting into Jerusalem from the city's east side by those "kings" was prepared by God for a specific hour, day, month and year, in order to slay one of the three factions that were holding control of Jerusalem (the "one third of men" in the city). That army of Idumean horsemen symbolically being "bound" at the Euphrates river happened when Ananus denied the Idumean army an entrance through Jerusalem's (Mystery Babylon's) main eastern gate. This enraged the Idumeans, and made them more determined than ever to invade the city.

This Revelation prophecy is not a prediction of the literal Euphrates River drying up in our future. It's ancient history, dated to AD 67 / 68.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again CrowCross,

Currently it appears that the Euphrates River is drying up literally...like Rev 16 suggest will happen. You can do your own study.
The question is, who is the King of the east? China?

There could also be a literal drying up of the Euphrates, but I consider that it is figurative. The kings (note plural) are the faithful who will be the kings and priests of the Age to Come. The overall figure is based upon the overthrow of Babylon by the Persians when the Euphrates was dried up. There could be another layer as it may also suggest the replacement of the present kingdoms of men (Babylon) with the Kingdom of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Josheb]

Yup....the drying up is still future.


They are the only country that can field hat size of an army...


Oh, OK, now were back to the entire world as I believe is spoken of in Rev rather than a "local" event.

How ever this plague doesn't fit into the Rev narrative.

Yup, you're an ideologue, not an exegete.

• The drying up has occurred many times in the past,
• They cannot field that size of an army,
• Nowhere does the Bible state the whole world is destroyed,
• The plague not fitting was not the point.

You see what you want to see and do not see what you do not want to see, and the reason is because of the allegiance to the man-made doctrine, not the scriptures or the facts real-life history.



Perusing the thread again I also see that some of my questions still haven't been answered.

• Who is the woman giving birth to a male son in Revelation 12?
• Who is the woman's son?
• Has that woman appeared?
• Has that son appeared?

Should I expect answers, or not?

 

[Josheb]

It wasn't the literal Euphrates River that John intended to speak about...............

My dear brother,

The specifics are irrelevant. You could provide ALL the answers you have but they would not satisfy our dissenting brothers. They are not really interested in any relevant facts that might prove anything they believe incorrect. You know and I know it is a simple enough task to look up the Romans' use of mercenaries as they laid slaughter to the entire land (not just Jerusalem) but to actually do it objectively and with a mind sufficiently open to follow the facts of history is an entirely different matter. It's a simple enough task to believe God's word exactly as written, but to do so and bend doctrine to scripture is another matter. To look up the more than 340 Old Testament references that exist in Revelation is not such an easy task, but doing so explains the prophetic and eschatological truths of Revelation in a manner that will necessarily lead any reader to (re-)examine the beliefs and allegiance to his/her previously held doctrines.

You probably were not always preterist. Most of us amls, postmils, idealists were not. We came to preterism kicking, screaming, arguing foolishly, rationalizing and protesting every step of the way, but then one day we somehow read and believed God's word exactly as written and did NOT wantonly splice together inferentially read scripture. In a very real sense, we "woke up" to the facts and truths of scripture and the shocking, stark reality there is a large number of Christian teachers who teach scripture badly...... and we believed them over God.

I am not trying to explain the dry Euphrates to our other brother. He's made it very clear he's not really interested in any answers we might give, none will be considered honestly, none will persuade, and any and all such inquiries are disingenuous. Believe what he's communicated about himself (and post accordingly). As for me, quoting my posts and providing information unsolicited, I don't particularly mind it, but it is not helping, I already know most of it, and while I don't intend any snark, when I want your information, I'll ask for it. I could very easily pass off the proverbial buck for every inquiry I've received and reply, "Ask @3 Resurrections. He'll explain it all to you," but....

...the specifics are irrelevant! Our other brother has made this clear.

Maybe, just maybe, the lurkers will read the premils in this thread (which was originally about the temple) and see the nonsense they've posted, how they hold views in allegiance to men and not God, and how they dodge valid points and employ fallacy (very readily and without any hint of regret or repentance). Maybe, just maybe, they'll see how different premils join together to defend the indefensible against plainly read scripture and reason.

Method is just as important as content.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The specifics are irrelevant. You could provide ALL the answers you have but they would not satisfy our dissenting brothers. They are not really interested in any relevant facts that might prove anything they believe incorrect.

Unfortunately, yes, that is more than true. But we all post for the gallery, so to speak, and not necessarily to convince the ones we are directly engaging. It is those who are quietly reading from the sidelines that I am more interested in reaching with the scriptural and historical facts.

You probably were not always preterist. Most of us amls, postmils, idealists were not. We came to preterism kicking, screaming, arguing foolishly, rationalizing and protesting every step of the way, but then one day we somehow read and believed God's word exactly as written and did NOT wantonly splice together inferentially read scripture. In a very real sense, we "woke up" to the facts and truths of scripture and the shocking, stark reality there is a large number of Christian teachers who teach scripture badly...... and we believed them over God.

It was the same with my case. I was raised from infancy upward in a Christian home that was fully Pre-mil disp., as well as having continual Christian education with the same Pre-mil disp. emphasis taught from the podium in daily chapel services and in every Bible class. I literally grew up living two streets away from Oliver B. Green's Gospel Hour ministry (who was rabid Pre-mil disp.). Even as a very young preteen, I can well remember the absolute terror I felt when considering that I might accidentally be "left behind" with my parents being raptured off the planet, if I didn't believe enough, or in the right way about the scriptures. Sheer panic, with a continual unsettled feeling of apprehension for my future.

I believed without question that what I was taught from my youth upward was gospel truth for about 40 years of my Christian life. After all, how could my godly father have possibly made a mistake? He was one of the most intelligent, well-reasoned men that I knew.

It took the past twelve years of continual Bible study to arrive where I am today as a Preterist. As you say, Josheb, it was something of a "kicking and screaming" process to finally recognize what the language of scripture had been saying all along. The results are a peace about eschatology that passes understanding - a peace that never accompanied the Pre-mil disp. position .

Maybe, just maybe, the lurkers will read the premils in this thread (which was originally about the temple) and see the nonsense they've posted, how they hold views in allegiance to men and not God, and how they dodge valid points and employ fallacy (very readily and without any hint of regret or repentance). Maybe, just maybe, they'll see how different premils join together to defend the indefensible against plainly read scripture and reason.

Method is just as important as content.

THAT is what I always aim for, and the purpose for which I keep exchanging posts with those who are fervently opposed to Preterism. I presume that they honestly believe they are "doing God service". If so, I salute them for that motivation - even though we are standing in opposite camps.

 

[CrowCross]

Greetings again CrowCross,

There could also be a literal drying up of the Euphrates, but I consider that it is figurative. The kings (note plural) are the faithful who will be the kings and priests of the Age to Come. The overall figure is based upon the overthrow of Babylon by the Persians when the Euphrates was dried up. There could be another layer as it may also suggest the replacement of the present kingdoms of men (Babylon) with the Kingdom of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

"There could also be a literal drying up of the Euphrates, but I consider that it is figurative."......what would a symbolic approach look like?

Personally it sound literal to me.

 

[CrowCross]

Yup, you're an ideologue, not an exegete.

• The drying up has occurred many times in the past,
• They cannot field that size of an army,

When it was written they couldn't....but now, different story.

• Nowhere does the Bible state the whole world is destroyed,

Yes it does. Perhaps they should have written a new heaven and a new Jerusalem. No, they used "earth"
I'm simply not buying that "localized" theory. People have tried it with the flood and also failed with the localized theory.
Do you say the flood was local?

• The plague not fitting was not the point.

Then why use it? Just what was your point? Plagues happened in the past? OK???

You see what you want to see and do not see what you do not want to see, and the reason is because of the allegiance to the man-made doctrine, not the scriptures or the facts real-life history.

LOL...so you think simply calling my doctrine "man made" refutes what I've said???? As if you have some Holy Spirit lead interpretation???

Perusing the thread again I also see that some of my questions still haven't been answered.

• Who is the woman giving birth to a male son in Revelation 12?
• Who is the woman's son?
• Has that woman appeared?
• Has that son appeared?

There are several suggestions as to who thye are. It sounds like Israel and Jesus....with the devil making war against Israel in the tribulation period.

For something interesting check out the Revelation 12...Sept 23 2017 ....constellation alignment. I'm not saying it means anything, but very interesting.

Should I expect answers, or not?

 

[Josheb]

When it was written they couldn't....

Scripture says otherwise.

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his bondservants, the things which must soon take place; and he sent and communicated it by his angel to his bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The reason the revelation of Revelation was explicitly stated to show them what would happen because the time was at hand. The book was not written to us. It was written to them. There is nothing in the book stating the book was written for people living two millennia later.

Revelation 1:17-19
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

What is written in Revelation is things that John had seen, things that existed at the time of his writing the book, and things that would come afterwards. Denying what is stated does not change Revelation. Therefore, if Revelation says John saw an army of 200 million horse mounted men, then they could do it then. Scripture says so.

But you do not read Revelation as written. You read it in subjugation to a man-made extra-biblical doctrine, choosing which parts are read as written and which parts are read as the doctrine dictates.

but now, different story.

Yes it does. Perhaps they should have written a new heaven and a new Jerusalem. No, they used "earth"
I'm simply not buying that "localized" theory. People have tried it with the flood and also failed with the localized theory.
Do you say the flood was local?

Again,

Revelation 22:6-7, 18-20
And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bondservants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book............. I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

It is not a "theory." Nice red herring, though. The book was written to Christians, Christians living in the first century. The book itself states it was written to show them what was going to happen after the things that were, the things that were at that time. The book explicitly states no one is to add to or take from the book.

But you, @CrowCross, add to and remove from the book with every post. Your "theory" is that there couldn't possibly be an army 200 million men large back then so verse 9:16 must refer to modern (or future) China because they are the only ones who could possible man such an army.

Revelation 9:13-21
Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind. The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone. A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths. For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm. The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.


The text itself states these 200 million men are plagues, not real-life literal humans. When has a human ever ridden a horse out of whose mouth came fire, smoke, and brimstone? Is it your theory the Chinese are breeding lion-headed horses with fire, smoke, and brimstone coming out of their mouth?

Notice another thing: Nothing actually states the horsemen are on earth. Four angels who had been bound at the river were released so they could kill a third of mankind. These four angels had been prepared for that very day, hour, month, and year. Then the vision instantly switches from the four angels to 200 million horsemen, but they are not ordinary horsemen; they are horsemen who ride lion-headed, serpent-tailed, fire, smoke, and brimstone breathing horses...... and the three things coming out of their mouth - fire, smoke, and brimstone - are three plagues. Keep in mind the Greek does not actually state they are human males.

Revelation 9:16 Greek transliteration
And the number of the armies of the calvary [hippikos] twice ten thousands ten thousands I heard the number of them.

It is NOT a 200-million-man army. It is multiple, plural armies of calvary and out of the horses' mouths come plagues. That is what the text actually states.

And where is John when he sees this sixth trumpet blown?

Revelation 8:1
When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

John, the Lamb, and the seven angles are all in heaven standing before God's throne. None of them is on earth.

Revelation 8:7
The first sounded, and there was hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

The blood-mixed hail and fire was hurled from heaven (it was not an earthly hail). The same holds true for the results of all seven trumpets (the great mountain was hurled into the sea, a star fell from heaven, sun, moon, and stars are struck, another star from heaven is hurled to earth and its impact opens up an abyss filled with horse-like scorpion-tailed locusts wearing iron breastplates led by a guy with the name "Destroyer." Then multiple armies of plague-breathing calvary twice ten thousands ten thousands large are seen.....


...and you think it is China because China is the only country that can field such an army.

Then why use it? Just what was your point? Plagues happened in the past? OK???

But you said nothing in Revelation has yet happened when both scripture and history say it has.

LOL...so you think simply calling my doctrine "man made" refutes what I've said????

Nice straw man. Any and all man-made doctrines that contradict scripture are wrong. Do not leave out that part about contradicting scripture as if I have not repeatedly pointed that out.

As if you have some Holy Spirit lead interpretation???

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have some Holy Spirit led interpretation. You do to. You do not use it properly, but you have it. It is called the Bible.

 

[Josheb]

There are several suggestions as to who thye are. It sounds like Israel and Jesus....

Then two things in Revelation have already occurred. Both Israel and Jesus were born long before the book of Revelation was written and you have just contradicted yourself.

...with the devil making war against Israel in the tribulation period.

Because the devil never persecuted Jesus before the "tribulation period"? The Revelation 12 text explicitly states the dragon attempted to devour the child, not a grown man.

Matthew 2:16-18 ESV
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: “A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be comforted, because they are no more.”

Revelation 12:4
And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

AFTER the dragon tries to devour the child, the child is brought up to heaven.

Revelation 12:5
And she gave birth to a Son, a male, who is going to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
.
"rod of iron"?

Psalm 2:7-9
"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said tome, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as your inheritance, and the very ends of the earth as your possession. 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, you shall shatter them like earthenware.'"

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth."

The earth is his, and no one else's.

For something interesting check out the Revelation 12...Sept 23 2017 ....constellation alignment. I'm not saying it means anything, but very interesting.

Constellations aligned and nothing happened. It means nothing.





The text of Revelation 9 tells us the calvary is three plagues, not humans riding horse. If the mother and child of chapter 12 are Israel, Jesus (and Mary) then something in Revelation has already happened and you have contradicted yourself. You believe a wholly extra-biblical man-made doctrine that openly contradicts scripture. That is what you believe, not God!

 

[TMSO]

These terms of "earth" and "land" are not mutually exclusive of each other. The tribulations which Revelation describes for "the earth" (tes ges) is the same as for the "land" that Christ spoke about in Luke 21:20-24, when He said, "There shall be great distress in the land (tes ges) and wrath upon THIS people" who were in Judea. That Great Tribulation period was going to take place in "the land", with the disciples in that nation being warned to flee from the nation of Judea and Jerusalem to avoid that Great Tribulation period. If they did not, they would either fall by the sword, or be led captive into all the other nations of the habitable world.

This shows us quite clearly that "the land" (tes ges) in this case was definitely not the whole world at large. In this particular context, "the land" (tes ges) is narrowly defined as being the land of Judea, including Old Jerusalem whose buildings would be torn down and laid even with the ground in AD 70.

The tribulations for the earth are for the earth. The tribulation for the land is for Israel. So when it says Earth, it (generally, depending on the context of the verse, not your narrative) means Earth. When it says land, it means land. (Again, context driven.) God is dealing with both Israel and the world. For instance, in Daniel, the kingdom that comes to Earth and destroys the Empires of the world, fills the entire Earth.