Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

[Mr GLee]

Greetings again CrowCross,

There could also be a literal drying up of the Euphrates, but I consider that it is figurative. The kings (note plural) are the faithful who will be the kings and priests of the Age to Come. The overall figure is based upon the overthrow of Babylon by the Persians when the Euphrates was dried up. There could be another layer as it may also suggest the replacement of the present kingdoms of men (Babylon) with the Kingdom of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Form a Amil. . non literal perspective or signified

I would offer born from above believers are to look to the invisible things not seen the eternal, things of faith the power to believe Him not seen. A mighty labor of His love

No signs were given to seek or wonder after . A evil generation seeks after one in order to wonder ,wonder, wonder. . . after ??????

Believers have prophecy the living water of the word till the end of time . Satan the king of lying signs to wonder after. His wondering voice false prophecy .

We look to the spiritual invisible, or gospel understanding of living words. Hid from natural unconverted mankind (no faith that could please God. . . faithless)

The Lord in pursuit of a eternal bride. The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden (The pleasant city) to represent Zion the city of Christ prepared for his bride .

From the garden city Eden the gospel. . . living water goes out in four direction .North, South, East and West .(to the whole world )

1# Pison "leguminous vine," Most likely a Almond used to represent the authority of God

2# Gihon . ."gushing forth". in Ethiopia ("sun-worshipper paganism )"?

3# Hiddekel: . . ."the rapids" (gushing water ) living water of the word

4# Euphrates . . . "journey, passage, way,"

All four locations were destroyed because of the flood. The flood losing the literal interpretation understanding by locations.

This was as it seems . . because of being unevenly yoked with natural unconverted mankind they lost that earthly privilege . Thinking the kingdom had come (Gnosticism) The new WOKE government political heavens on earth

Because of the flood The water of the gospel no longer gushing up as before . ( But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.)

But again like rain the doctrines of Christ fall from above . A huge blow against Satan the father of lies the author of earthly inspired after temporal dying things seen .

In that way inspired from above giving the "sign of rainbow" to never destroy the surface of the whole world ever again. . . reforming it. (Grand Canyon one high pressure outlet . )

God uses literal locations to represent its residents (demonyms) throughout the Bible. It is never about the literal dying corrupted land .

Genesis 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch ("dedicated, consecrated," )

After Enoch who was used to represent the (spiritual) seed of the second born. . . to represent a man must be born again. Then mankind began having a personal relationship with the Spirit of Christ, Christ the born again seed was passed down until the birth of the Son of man Jesus, The first born Son of God from above.

Christian the new name the father re-named the bride in Acts . . .Christian. . . "Residents of the city of Christ" prepared for his wife named after her husband Christ.

Called the married land . again the focus is on residents not literal location. (beautiful gospel parable below)

Isaiah 62:4-5 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

In that way no need to know were they were. Not a salvation issues .More how can we hear the spiritual understanding inspired from above, not looking to the temporal earthly dying things alone .

Nicolaitans a city in respect of residents founded after Nicodemus (fool) a fallen city

Revaltion 2:4-7 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.( Hearing believing God) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; (beleive God) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[TMSO]

These terms of "earth" and "land" are not mutually exclusive of each other. The tribulations which Revelation describes for "the earth" (tes ges) is the same as for the "land" that Christ spoke about in Luke 21:20-24, when He said, "There shall be great distress in the land (tes ges) and wrath upon THIS people" who were in Judea. That Great Tribulation period was going to take place in "the land", with the disciples in that nation being warned to flee from the nation of Judea and Jerusalem to avoid that Great Tribulation period. If they did not, they would either fall by the sword, or be led captive into all the other nations of the habitable world.

This shows us quite clearly that "the land" (tes ges) in this case was definitely not the whole world at large. In this particular context, "the land" (tes ges) is narrowly defined as being the land of Judea, including Old Jerusalem whose buildings would be torn down and laid even with the ground in AD 70.

The Great Tribulation will envelope the whole world (how else can we get Earth: population 0)? The main focus is Israel in that that is where the Antichrist will active, but it will envelope the whole world.

 

[Mr GLee]

The great tribulation began at the time of the first century reformation. o more Kings in Israel (abomination of desolation) Dying mankind sitting in the place they called the Holy of Holies of the invisible head Christ . The beginning of the last days .

The vail was rent no Jewish man (dying mankind) was siting in the Holy of hollies. Satan fell and could no longer deceive all the nations of the world that God is a Jewish man as king of kings

The all men's religion was put to rest. The two high walls came tumbling down. The first wall did not allow Jewish women to participate with the ceremonial laws (shadows) as a sign to the unbelieving world .The other high wall separated male and female gentiles for the new ceremony .

A great tribulation of the outward non-converted Jew who was trusting his dying flesh could profit. A great joy for the all believers . Now family members from all nations could gather together under one new ceremonial law (head covering drinking of the cup as one ceremony)

The same tribulation today. Mankind hoping his dying flesh could profit towards salvation

No signs were given to wonder after.

 

[Mr GLee]

From a Amillennialism perspective

The great tribulation began at the time of the first century reformation. . . .no more Kings in Israel (abomination of desolation). A Pagan foundation. Dying mankind sitting in the place they called the Holy of Holies it beginning of the last days .

The vail that represented the circummsion of first born of Sons of God was rent. No Jewish man (dying mankind) was siting in the Holy of Hollies. Satan fell and could no longer deceive all the nations of the world that eternal God is a Jewish an as King of kings .

He will be released to again for a short season to try and deceive all the nations of the world that God is a Jewish an as King of kings

Revelation 20:3 King James Version And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations "no more", till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[TMSO]

The great tribulation began at the time of the first century reformation. o more Kings in Israel (abomination of desolation) Dying mankind sitting in the place they called the Holy of Holies of the invisible head Christ . The beginning of the last days .

The vail was rent no Jewish man (dying mankind) was siting in the Holy of hollies. Satan fell and could no longer deceive all the nations of the world that God is a Jewish man as king of kings

The all men's religion was put to rest. The two high walls came tumbling down. The first wall did not allow Jewish women to participate with the ceremonial laws (shadows) as a sign to the unbelieving world .The other high wall separated male and female gentiles for the new ceremony .

A great tribulation of the outward non-converted Jew who was trusting his dying flesh could profit. A great joy for the all believers . Now family members from all nations could gather together under one new ceremonial law (head covering drinking of the cup as one ceremony)

The same tribulation today. Mankind hoping his dying flesh could profit towards salvation

No signs were given to wonder after.

So why is anyone left alive? I mean, Jesus was pretty clear that if the days weren't shortened there would be no life left on Earth. God CAME as a Jewish man as king of kings. He had to. All the Old Testament scripture points to that. Jesus was both God and man, that is, God become flesh, God incarnate.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The tribulations for the earth are for the earth. The tribulation for the land is for Israel. So when it says Earth, it (generally, depending on the context of the verse, not your narrative) means Earth. When it says land, it means land.

Both "the earth" and "the land" are translated from the same Greek term of "tes ges". Sometimes "tes ges" speak of the entire globe, but more often than not in scripture, it doesn't. Both "the earth" and "the land" refer to the nation of Israel's location in many instances - especially in the book of Revelation which was written by John as an ethnic Jewish man.

God is dealing with both Israel and the world. For instance, in Daniel, the kingdom that comes to Earth and destroys the Empires of the world, fills the entire Earth.

Well, we know that at Christ's second coming return, He was going to bodily stand on the Mount of Olives, on the east side of Jerusalem. This was definitely a prophecy with which the location of Israel would be involved. Yet Christ's bodily return to that location in Israel would have ramifications on the state of the whole world at large, of course, since the growth of Christ's "stone" kingdom was prophesied to fill the whole earth in which the power behind all those empires of the world had once held sway - not just the location of Israel. So yes, this is one example you have brought up where "earth" can refer to the world at large, and not just Israel's location.

The Great Tribulation will envelope the whole world (how else can we get Earth: population 0)? The main focus is Israel in that that is where the Antichrist will active, but it will envelope the whole world.

Scripture never said that the Antichrist was to have world-wide power. That is a mistaken interpretation which unites two different prophecies of the Rev. 13 Sea Beast and the "Man of Lawlessness" in 2 Thess. 2. These were NOT the same evil character in prophecy, though many have presumed that they are.

The Antichrist / Man of Lawlessness of 2 Thess. 2 would only "exalt himself" in the temple of God location - not that this single man was ever able to compel worldwide submission unto himself. That has been a mistaken assumption by most. For example, I could "exalt myself" by proclaiming myself the ruler of this forum, but does that mean anyone else necessarily has to comply with that ridiculous demand for control? Of course not.

The "Great Tribulation" period was called "the days of vengeance" in Luke 21:22, in which all that was written concerning those "days of vengeance" would be fulfilled. Don't you remember where this "vengeance" was first promised in scripture? It was in the Deuteronomy 32 "Song of Moses" which was taught to the children of Israel, just before they entered the Promised Land. God knew even before the people of Israel entered the land that they would apostatize and fall into idolatry, and He detailed exactly what was going to happen to them in their "latter end" when He would "judge His people" and take vengeance on them for their disobedience.

These "days of vengeance" with God judging His people is described in detail in the book of Revelation. That is why the "Song of Moses" is again being sung in Revelation 15:3, when the 7 plagues of God are about to be poured out in judgment and wrath upon "the earth" (the land and people of Israel in this case, at their "latter end"). God already accomplished that "latter end" of the people of Israel in AD 70 when He "shattered the power of the holy people", as Daniel 12:7 had once predicted.

 

[Mr GLee]

So why is anyone left alive? I mean, Jesus was pretty clear that if the days weren't shortened there would be no life left on Earth. God CAME as a Jewish man as king of kings. He had to. All the Old Testament scripture points to that. Jesus was both God and man, that is, God become flesh, God incarnate.

Hi Thanks for the reply

I would offer. Those days are the whole new reformed testament period, beginning when the vail was rent . There was no Jewish man as King of kings sitting in what they called the holy of holies. Satan could no longer deceive all the nations of the world he is a flesh blood dying man

 

[Mr GLee]

Both "the earth" and "the land" are translated from the same Greek term of "tes ges". Sometimes "tes ges" speak of the entire globe, but more often than not in scripture, it doesn't. Both "the earth" and "the land" refer to the nation of Israel's location in many instances - especially in the book of Revelation which was written by John as an ethnic Jewish man.

Literal land is termed desolate. The temporal corrupted is used to focus on the residents a demonym, seeking the spiritual unseen things of God the gospel hid from dying mankind .

Never the literal land (unmarried) that will be destroyed by fire on the last day under the Sun/

Isaiah 62:4Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

 

[Mr GLee]

So why is anyone left alive? I

Who said non left?

 

[TMSO]

Both "the earth" and "the land" are translated from the same Greek term of "tes ges". Sometimes "tes ges" speak of the entire globe, but more often than not in scripture, it doesn't. Both "the earth" and "the land" refer to the nation of Israel's location in many instances - especially in the book of Revelation which was written by John as an ethnic Jewish man.

That isn't how it works. It is based on context. Stop ignoring the context. The context of Revelation is the Apocolypse, the end of the WORLD, the EARTH, as a whole. So of course when it talks about the Earth/world it is speaking of the whole thing, as long as that is supported by the context. (And it is)

Well, we know that at Christ's second coming return, He was going to bodily stand on the Mount of Olives, on the east side of Jerusalem. This was definitely a prophecy with which the location of Israel would be involved. Yet Christ's bodily return to that location in Israel would have ramifications on the state of the whole world at large, of course, since the growth of Christ's "stone" kingdom was prophesied to fill the whole earth in which the power behind all those empires of the world had once held sway - not just the location of Israel. So yes, this is one example you have brought up where "earth" can refer to the world at large, and not just Israel's location.

Wow, that logic there is on very shaky grounds. It is not an example where "earth" can refer to the world at large, it is an example where it does refer to the world at large, and speaks to not chucking the context. None of those 4 Empires are situated centrally in Israel. They are all outside. Christ's millennial kingdom is so my greater, so much more vast, that it goes beyond their borders, and encompasses the whole Earth. (Fills the whole Earth.) The idea that you would state that Jesus Kingdom is only situated in Israel, given that prophecy, and that saying it is global is just a possibility... is marked a concern by all who use logic.

Scripture never said that the Antichrist was to have world-wide power. That is a mistaken interpretation which unites two different prophecies of the Rev. 13 Sea Beast and the "Man of Lawlessness" in 2 Thess. 2. These were NOT the same evil character in prophecy, though many have presumed that they are.

They are the same. And he is the same as the one in the book of Daniel. (You are one who isolates prophecy, like the Jews did... the one's who missed Jesus FIRST coming. Are you in line to miss the second coming?)

The Antichrist / Man of Lawlessness of 2 Thess. 2 would only "exalt himself" in the temple of God location - not that this single man was ever able to compel worldwide submission unto himself. That has been a mistaken assumption by most. For example, I could "exalt myself" by proclaiming myself the ruler of this forum, but does that mean anyone else necessarily has to comply with that ridiculous demand for control? Of course not.

He is in the temple at Jerusalem because that is where God's house was. That is God's turf. The abomination of desolation is when he (Antichrist (big A)) enters the temple and declares himself to be the only true god, and puts an end to all other religions save the worship of himself, under penalty of death. It will be worse of Israel because... he's in Israel. He is the beast in Daniel that makes blasphemous boasts. There is a specific reason why God says it is a decree to Daniel... in Babylon... with the Medes and Persians... who set very specific definitions for decrees. It cannot be rescinded, even by the one who put it out. It cannot be changed, even by the one who put it out. It can be amended, however, that amendment does not change the decree. With Esther, a new decree was put out that basically amended the other decree to say that while this particular day was scheduled for Jews to be attacked/killed, it was now decreed by the king that the Jews were to defend themselves. No change to the original decree, just another decree that basically amended the first. That is, it ran side by side with the first. Sure, you are free to do as you please, however, now the Jews are decreed to defend themselves on that day.

The "Great Tribulation" period was called "the days of vengeance" in Luke 21:22, in which all that was written concerning those "days of vengeance" would be fulfilled. Don't you remember where this "vengeance" was first promised in scripture? It was in the Deuteronomy 32 "Song of Moses" which was taught to the children of Israel, just before they entered the Promised Land. God knew even before the people of Israel entered the land that they would apostatize and fall into idolatry, and He detailed exactly what was going to happen to them in their "latter end" when He would "judge His people" and take vengeance on them for their disobedience.

"20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [q]recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside [r]the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter [s]the city; 22 because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the [t]land, and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Hmm... who spoke to what that is?

These "days of vengeance" with God judging His people is described in detail in the book of Revelation. That is why the "Song of Moses" is again being sung in Revelation 15:3, when the 7 plagues of God are about to be poured out in judgment and wrath upon "the earth" (the land and people of Israel in this case, at their "latter end"). God already accomplished that "latter end" of the people of Israel in AD 70 when He "shattered the power of the holy people", as Daniel 12:7 had once predicted.

That is not what is recorded in Revelation. You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel. If you believe God is true, specific (even if we do not immediately understand) you will know why this can't be AD 70. That would make the last week over 30 years long. That either means God made a mistake, or you did. (or it makes the 69th week over 30 years long.) It is clear that one week is 7 years. It can be calculated, and it fits. (Hence why they use 7 years.) The definition of the week never changes. Why not? This is more than a prophecy, it is a DECREE. Immutable, unchangeable, and clear.

The end for the Jews is the result of the decree of 70 weeks. An end to the transgression, an end to sin, atonement made for guilt, etc... Does that sound anything like what you wrote? It does not.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That isn't how it works. It is based on context. Stop ignoring the context.

I am very much following the context. The disasters predicted in the "Song of Moses" in Deuteronomy 32 for the "latter end" of the ethnic people of Israel were what Revelation's visions gave in detail. That is why the victorious ones in heaven were singing that "Song of Moses" in Revelation 15:3. God was then in vengeance about to pour out those 7 plagues of judgments upon the ethnic people of Israel who were guilty of killing the prophets and servants of God - especially the Son of God when they demanded His crucifixion.

Those 7 plague judgments were poured out upon the earth (Rev. 16:1). If the judgments listed in Deuteronomy 32's "Song of Moses" were about to be poured out, and we know that the "Song of Moses" concerned the judgments at the "latter end" of the ethnic Israelites, then we know where these 7 plagues were poured out in this context. Every one of the disasters of the 7 plagues in Revelation 15 fell upon the land of Judea and the seas connected with that particular region.

The idea that you would state that Jesus Kingdom is only situated in Israel, given that prophecy, and that saying it is global is just a possibility... is marked a concern by all who use logic.

You are misinterpreting what I wrote. I never said Jesus' kingdom was only situated in Israel. The "leaven" of the kingdom of heaven steadily grows until the whole lump of bread dough (the whole world) is leavened - not just a portion of it (such as the land of Israel alone). Likewise, the "stone" kingdom grows to fill the entire earth (in this case, meaning the entire world at large).

They are the same. And he is the same as the one in the book of Daniel.

The specific word "Antichrist" never shows up in Daniel, nor in Revelation either, for that matter. Only in 1 John and 2 John, with Christ also speaking about "false christs" arising in His own generation, and Paul speaking about the single "Man of Lawlessness" in 2 Thess. 2 who was already living at that time, and whose identity was known to the Thessalonian believers.

The single man known as "Antichrist" (Menahem, who succeeded in getting into the Jerusalem temple in AD 66) was not any of the three different Beasts in the book of Revelation, since those were references to entire empires or kingdoms, just as Daniel's different Beasts were also identified as empires or kingdoms.

The Antichrist never was said to be able to establish a kingdom of any sort. He only would "exalt himself" over others - not that this convinced the world at large to agree to this and support this claim of superiority.

The abomination of desolation is when he (Antichrist (big A)) enters the temple and declares himself to be the only true god, and puts an end to all other religions save the worship of himself, under penalty of death.

WRONG. Luke 21:20-21 defined and interpreted for us what Daniel's "abomination of desolation" was. It was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". Paul never wrote that the "Man of Lawlessness" would be able to put an end to all other religions except for the worship of himself with a death penalty imposed for not doing so. You are adding to scripture and inventing a situation which Paul never described. This "Man of Lawlessness" would only be able to "exalt HIMSELF" (2 Thess. 2:4). That is not the same as having other people exalt him. This was a narcissistic individual who thought he could claim to be the prophesied Messiah the Prince over the nation of Israel. Paul said both the "Man of Lawlessness" and his restrainer were then alive in 2 Thess. 2:6-7. This "Man of Lawlessness" is NOT a future threat to us. He was killed long ago, back in AD 66.

24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Hmm... who spoke to what that is

You have the wrong idea of who those "Gentiles" were that trampled Jerusalem underfoot. That "trampling" by the Gentiles lasted for 42 months (Rev. 11:2), from late AD 66 until early AD 70. It was the Zealot leaders and their armies originating from their home turf in
"Galilee of the Gentiles" who trampled Jerusalem underfoot for those 42 months, right up until Titus came to finish off the city in AD 70. Those competing Zealot leaders and their armies inside Jerusalem were mainly responsible for the disasters they brought against their own people. The Zealots' suicidal activities weakened the city's resources and defenses enough so that the Romans were able to conquer the city in AD 70 with less effort than it would have taken otherwise.

You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel. If you believe God is true, specific (even if we do not immediately understand) you will know why this can't be AD 70.

I never wrote anything about the 70 week prophecy. And I certainly never stated that the 70 week prophecy ended in AD 70. The 70 week prophecy period of 490 years lasted from 454 BC until AD 37. The 70 week prophecy did not include the accomplishment of the end of the Jews. It only "sealed up" the prophecy that predicted that eventual shattering of the power of the holy people. In other words, scripture tells us that the confirmed predictions for that eventual end of the Jews were given and "sealed up" within the 490 years, but the actual fulfillment in real time of their destruction and that of the temple came later down the road in AD 70 when those events were "unsealed".

 

[EarlyActs]

Greetings again CrowCross,

Our Senior Sunday School Class considered the Book of Revelation over a number of years. I gained a reasonable overall assessment from a Continuous Historic Premillennial perspective, but had some difficulty with the detailed history and also many of the symbols that were used. One figure that I am happy with is the use of a particular river to signify the nation that the river runs through. In the following the Kingdom and military might of Assyria and their conquests is likened to a river in flood:

Isaiah 8:7–8 (KJV): 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: 8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

The same figure could be used for the contraction of an Empire:

Revelation 16:12 (KJV): And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

I believe that the above is mainly depicting the drying up of the Ottoman Empire and one specific occasion was the removal of the Ottoman power from Palestine, allowing the more ready return of the Jews and the establishment of the nation of Israel.

The following is a map of the Ottoman Empire in 1914, and they not only occupied Palestine, but were possessors of the Euphrates River, but were pushed back on both these fronts during WW1.

View attachment 847

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi Trevor,
Acts 2:29 quotes Samual about the Davidic kingdom and says knowing this David foresaw the resurrection, that the Holy One would not see corruption. This is why the resurrection is emphatically said to be the enthronement of Christ, both in this verse and the powerful endline of Peter’s talk. This is shocking to the listeners who wonder what can be done. The answer is to believe , repent, and become this messages servants.

Have you found a Greek grammar commentary that says otherwise?

 

[EarlyActs]

That isn't how it works. It is based on context. Stop ignoring the context. The context of Revelation is the Apocolypse, the end of the WORLD, the EARTH, as a whole. So of course when it talks about the Earth/world it is speaking of the whole thing, as long as that is supported by the context. (And it is)

Wow, that logic there is on very shaky grounds. It is not an example where "earth" can refer to the world at large, it is an example where it does refer to the world at large, and speaks to not chucking the context. None of those 4 Empires are situated centrally in Israel. They are all outside. Christ's millennial kingdom is so my greater, so much more vast, that it goes beyond their borders, and encompasses the whole Earth. (Fills the whole Earth.) The idea that you would state that Jesus Kingdom is only situated in Israel, given that prophecy, and that saying it is global is just a possibility... is marked a concern by all who use logic.

They are the same. And he is the same as the one in the book of Daniel. (You are one who isolates prophecy, like the Jews did... the one's who missed Jesus FIRST coming. Are you in line to miss the second coming?)

He is in the temple at Jerusalem because that is where God's house was. That is God's turf. The abomination of desolation is when he (Antichrist (big A)) enters the temple and declares himself to be the only true god, and puts an end to all other religions save the worship of himself, under penalty of death. It will be worse of Israel because... he's in Israel. He is the beast in Daniel that makes blasphemous boasts. There is a specific reason why God says it is a decree to Daniel... in Babylon... with the Medes and Persians... who set very specific definitions for decrees. It cannot be rescinded, even by the one who put it out. It cannot be changed, even by the one who put it out. It can be amended, however, that amendment does not change the decree. With Esther, a new decree was put out that basically amended the other decree to say that while this particular day was scheduled for Jews to be attacked/killed, it was now decreed by the king that the Jews were to defend themselves. No change to the original decree, just another decree that basically amended the first. That is, it ran side by side with the first. Sure, you are free to do as you please, however, now the Jews are decreed to defend themselves on that day.

"20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [q]recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside [r]the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter [s]the city; 22 because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the [t]land, and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Hmm... who spoke to what that is?

That is not what is recorded in Revelation. You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel. If you believe God is true, specific (even if we do not immediately understand) you will know why this can't be AD 70. That would make the last week over 30 years long. That either means God made a mistake, or you did. (or it makes the 69th week over 30 years long.) It is clear that one week is 7 years. It can be calculated, and it fits. (Hence why they use 7 years.) The definition of the week never changes. Why not? This is more than a prophecy, it is a DECREE. Immutable, unchangeable, and clear.

The end for the Jews is the result of the decree of 70 weeks. An end to the transgression, an end to sin, atonement made for guilt, etc... Does that sound anything like what you wrote? It does not.

Re ges
The context is not necessarily the whole world. You will find that the heavy Judaic symbolism is especially poignant to Jews at that time. Neighboring nations will matter but it is perfectly fair to say it is quite absorbed in that generation.

For a similar case, compare Mt 5 about inheriting the ges. Rather than universal, he means that followers who do not take the hostile stance against Rome may be able to dwell in Israel in that generation without trouble. But the hostility actually increased and the land was scorched. Notice instructions in Mt 5-7 to help Roman soldiers etc.

When the flood analogy is made in 7 about all that was taught in 5-7, he was prob referring to Dan 9’s ‘the end will come like a flood.’ Those despising his teaching would be crushed. Those keeping his word would be saved. Dan 9 is hauntingly specific about the 1st century destruction.

 

[EarlyActs]

I am very much following the context. The disasters predicted in the "Song of Moses" in Deuteronomy 32 for the "latter end" of the ethnic people of Israel were what Revelation's visions gave in detail. That is why the victorious ones in heaven were singing that "Song of Moses" in Revelation 15:3. God was then in vengeance about to pour out those 7 plagues of judgments upon the ethnic people of Israel who were guilty of killing the prophets and servants of God - especially the Son of God when they demanded His crucifixion.

Those 7 plague judgments were poured out upon the earth (Rev. 16:1). If the judgments listed in Deuteronomy 32's "Song of Moses" were about to be poured out, and we know that the "Song of Moses" concerned the judgments at the "latter end" of the ethnic Israelites, then we know where these 7 plagues were poured out in this context. Every one of the disasters of the 7 plagues in Revelation 15 fell upon the land of Judea and the seas connected with that particular region.


You are misinterpreting what I wrote. I never said Jesus' kingdom was only situated in Israel. The "leaven" of the kingdom of heaven steadily grows until the whole lump of bread dough (the whole world) is leavened - not just a portion of it (such as the land of Israel alone). Likewise, the "stone" kingdom grows to fill the entire earth (in this case, meaning the entire world at large).


The specific word "Antichrist" never shows up in Daniel, nor in Revelation either, for that matter. Only in 1 John and 2 John, with Christ also speaking about "false christs" arising in His own generation, and Paul speaking about the single "Man of Lawlessness" in 2 Thess. 2 who was already living at that time, and whose identity was known to the Thessalonian believers.

The single man known as "Antichrist" (Menahem, who succeeded in getting into the Jerusalem temple in AD 66) was not any of the three different Beasts in the book of Revelation, since those were references to entire empires or kingdoms, just as Daniel's different Beasts were also identified as empires or kingdoms.

The Antichrist never was said to be able to establish a kingdom of any sort. He only would "exalt himself" over others - not that this convinced the world at large to agree to this and support this claim of superiority.

WRONG. Luke 21:20-21 defined and interpreted for us what Daniel's "abomination of desolation" was. It was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". Paul never wrote that the "Man of Lawlessness" would be able to put an end to all other religions except for the worship of himself with a death penalty imposed for not doing so. You are adding to scripture and inventing a situation which Paul never described. This "Man of Lawlessness" would only be able to "exalt HIMSELF" (2 Thess. 2:4). That is not the same as having other people exalt him. This was a narcissistic individual who thought he could claim to be the prophesied Messiah the Prince over the nation of Israel. Paul said both the "Man of Lawlessness" and his restrainer were then alive in 2 Thess. 2:6-7. This "Man of Lawlessness" is NOT a future threat to us. He was killed long ago, back in AD 66.


You have the wrong idea of who those "Gentiles" were that trampled Jerusalem underfoot. That "trampling" by the Gentiles lasted for 42 months (Rev. 11:2), from late AD 66 until early AD 70. It was the Zealot leaders and their armies originating from their home turf in
"Galilee of the Gentiles" who trampled Jerusalem underfoot for those 42 months, right up until Titus came to finish off the city in AD 70. Those competing Zealot leaders and their armies inside Jerusalem were mainly responsible for the disasters they brought against their own people. The Zealots' suicidal activities weakened the city's resources and defenses enough so that the Romans were able to conquer the city in AD 70 with less effort than it would have taken otherwise.


I never wrote anything about the 70 week prophecy. And I certainly never stated that the 70 week prophecy ended in AD 70. The 70 week prophecy period of 490 years lasted from 454 BC until AD 37. The 70 week prophecy did not include the accomplishment of the end of the Jews. It only "sealed up" the prophecy that predicted that eventual shattering of the power of the holy people. In other words, scripture tells us that the confirmed predictions for that eventual end of the Jews were given and "sealed up" within the 490 years, but the actual fulfillment in real time of their destruction and that of the temple came later down the road in AD 70 when those events were "unsealed".

Yes there is something extended or expanded about the destructive final week, and I think he simply meant it was a generation, a decisive one.

I recall the last time I compared sealed up with confirmed in Danielic usage and had to conclude their parallelism rather than contrast.

Hi Trevor,
Acts 2:29 quotes Samual about the Davidic kingdom and says knowing this David foresaw the resurrection, that the Holy One would not see corruption. This is why the resurrection is emphatically said to be the enthronement of Christ, both in this verse and the powerful endline of Peter’s talk. This is shocking to the listeners who wonder what can be done. The answer is to believe , repent, and become this messages servants.

Have you found a Greek grammar commentary that says otherwise?

Corr v30 for the Samuel lines. I didn’t have a print copy out.

 

[EarlyActs]

Sealing in Dan 9 is a concluded transaction . Everything about prophecy would be done.

Oddly intertestament Judaism eschatology had a belief in reaching the nations but they meant reaching them with the practices of the law, and Jerusalem would be invincible during the whole ‘time of the Gentiles.’ Yes it believed it was a time of the Gentiles.

This belief , this mission, is sharply put down by Jesus in Mt 23, and in Eph 3, Paul says the current mystery is that Gentiles are welcomed into fellowship through the Gospel. This contrasts with the Law, as Judaism thought. There is no mystery that Gentiles were fellowshipping, only that it was by the Gospel.

Once again a literalism when reading Isaiah will ruin how it is true in Christ.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I recall the last time I compared sealed up with confirmed in Danielic usage and had to conclude their parallelism rather than contrast.

To "seal up" a vision in scripture is to RESERVE its fulfillment for a later date (as in Daniel 12:4 & 9). Yes, to "seal up" is also to "confirm" a prophecy, but "sealing up" is the opposite of a prophecy being immediately fulfilled in real time.

One of the 6 stated purposes of Daniel's 70-week prophecy was to "seal up the vision and prophecy" (Dan. 9:24) as a RESERVED prediction of what would eventually happen to Daniel's people and the holy city, whose destruction would later be fulfilled farther on in the future. All the prophecies about the fate of Daniel's people and the holy city were given within the time parameters of the 70 weeks' period, but their final fulfillment regarding that predicted destruction would take place beyond the time parameters of that 70 weeks.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again EarlyActs,

Acts 2:29 quotes Samual about the Davidic kingdom and says knowing this David foresaw the resurrection, that the Holy One would not see corruption. This is why the resurrection is emphatically said to be the enthronement of Christ, both in this verse and the powerful endline of Peter’s talk. This is shocking to the listeners who wonder what can be done. The answer is to believe , repent, and become this messages servants.
Have you found a Greek grammar commentary that says otherwise?

You do not need a Greek Grammar to understand the simple and clear Bible teaching that Jesus was exalted to sit at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne Psalm 110:1, Revelation 3:20-21 and he is soon to return to sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Matthew 19:28, Acts 1:11, Acts 3:19-21.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[EarlyActs]

Greetings again EarlyActs,

You do not need a Greek Grammar to understand the simple and clear Bible teaching that Jesus was exalted to sit at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne Psalm 110:1, Revelation 3:20-21 and he is soon to return to sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Matthew 19:28, Acts 1:11, Acts 3:19-21.

Kind regards
Trevor

Since Greek has declensions for gender which are few in English, it helps. But there is no other antecedent. David knew of the Davidic enthronement (the Samuel quote) and said it was the resurrection, by quoting the Ps 16 about it. Thus Ps 2, 110, 118 and 16 are the most common quoted by the apostles.

What you are doing removes the climax reached in Acts 2's speech.

In Acts 3, he does not leave the present when speaking of the restoration and the refreshing--all directed to get that generation busy as missionaries. In Acts 4, they mention again that the Son is enthroned and all people, rulers and ditch diggers, are to honor Him, lest they be crushed. That is why it is an imperative kingdom, not future. But we knew from Dan 2 that it was present, and the NT resounds with it being present. That does not necessarily change the news; it simply is what God wants--honor for His Son.

Best regards, Marcus

 

[EarlyActs]

To "seal up" a vision in scripture is to RESERVE its fulfillment for a later date (as in Daniel 12:4 & 9). Yes, to "seal up" is also to "confirm" a prophecy, but "sealing up" is the opposite of a prophecy being immediately fulfilled in real time.

One of the 6 stated purposes of Daniel's 70-week prophecy was to "seal up the vision and prophecy" (Dan. 9:24) as a RESERVED prediction of what would eventually happen to Daniel's people and the holy city, whose destruction would later be fulfilled farther on in the future. All the prophecies about the fate of Daniel's people and the holy city were given within the time parameters of the 70 weeks' period, but their final fulfillment regarding that predicted destruction would take place beyond the time parameters of that 70 weeks.

I find no proof of this meaning of confirm, other than the circular argument you are giving. I have have to see outside proof. If you mean that destruction of the nation was announced in Daniel's time but would not take place until 70 AD, that's fine (on 2nd reading I see that might be what you meant.)

The destruction did happen in the 70 weeks. The last week is unusual; it lasts a generation. Notice, historically, that a destructive rebellion could even have started as early as Judas the Galilean in 6 AD; he is mentioned in Acts 5 by Gamaliel, and Caiaphas thought he could circumvent a destruction of the nation if he got rid of Jesus in Jn 11. This colors much of what Jesus said about Rome--rebellion was clearly in the air. God could legitimately have destroyed the country any time after official rejection of the mission by Judaism's leaders, like in Acts 4. He appealed to the nation for a generation. Paul confirms this in Rom 11 by still appealing to all of them to be missionaries like himself, but v14 admits that only a few would believe.

One evidence of such an extended or elastic view of the end of the vision, is the expression 'on the wings of abominations.' Unlike the rest of 24-27, that is very difficult to pin down, and there is a reason for it.

 

[EarlyActs]

To "seal up" a vision in scripture is to RESERVE its fulfillment for a later date (as in Daniel 12:4 & 9). Yes, to "seal up" is also to "confirm" a prophecy, but "sealing up" is the opposite of a prophecy being immediately fulfilled in real time.

One of the 6 stated purposes of Daniel's 70-week prophecy was to "seal up the vision and prophecy" (Dan. 9:24) as a RESERVED prediction of what would eventually happen to Daniel's people and the holy city, whose destruction would later be fulfilled farther on in the future. All the prophecies about the fate of Daniel's people and the holy city were given within the time parameters of the 70 weeks' period, but their final fulfillment regarding that predicted destruction would take place beyond the time parameters of that 70 weeks.

Let's try this: do you think that 9:26,27 are a compact statement of 1st century Judean history?