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Why do Calvinists debate?

No, but I consent to my continuing life after I was born.
God is other than humanity. Human analogies don't cut the mustard. Where does it say that is the case with effectual grace?
Consent becomes possible because of our rebirth.
You have not yet shown that the Scriptures teach that. You aren't actually arguing from anything but your opinion. It has been shown to you that they do not teach any such thing, nor does it in anyway agree with who the self revealed God is. You disagree, but by way of ignoring and not actually addressing what is said to refute it, or making them say what is not in them.
 
This is the point. They are given the very same thing the disciples were given. They could see, they could hear but their self-righteousness kept them blind and deaf to the meanings. They chose their pride over submitting to God

Who closed their eyes? They did. They chose to close their eyes, they did not want God's healing just as they loved darkness more than light. It was by their choice. Jesus gave his disciples the explanation of the parables. They did not understand them on their own. But he did not explain his parable to the scribes and Pharisees and I think it is clear as to why.
For one thing it wasn't just the Scribes and Pharisees it was a whole crowd of people. And you forgot to consider verse 11. To you it has been given to know the secrets of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Does it ever say it was their self-righteousness that kept them from understanding and believing (which is what seeing and hearing refers to)?
 
That makes no difference in whether or not they were manipulated. Are you suggesting that God made the soils differently? Each one was given the same seed, the same rain, etc. The Parable was not about God creating bad soil and then withholding his irresistible grace from it. It was about the condition of different hearts that influenced the choices that they made.

Will hell be made up of individuals who are put there not by their own informed choice?
There's that irrelevant, strawman word again. Manipulated. Are you suggesting that the seed made the soil?

Hell will be full of people who are sinners. I do not know where you got the idea that they have to have an informed choice in order to be what they are. Or the idea that anyone or anything can be anything but what it is unless the Potter makes if what it is not.

You claim to believe in total depravity, and yet you argue against it all the time. You claim to believe in unconditional election, yet deny election; to claim to believe in limited atonement but change in what way it is limited according to the doctrine; you balk at irresistible grace and yet if the T and the L are true in the doctrine, the L of necessity must be; you claim to believe in preservation of the sants, yet also believe we can lose our salvation. (And say claim because in the OP you said only one petal was plastic and that seems to be the I.

You take the same path, and say the exact same things as Norman Geisler who wrote a book claiming he was a calvinist, that five point Calvinism was extreme Calvinism, and then proceeded to deny every point. And in the very same way you do. WIth not a speck of exegesis in his entire book.
 
There's that irrelevant, strawman word again. Manipulated. Are you suggesting that the seed made the soil?
Let’s go back to my inquiry first. Are you suggesting the God created souls to be damned for eternity?
Hell will be full of people who are sinners. I do not know where you got the idea that they have to have an informed choice in order to be what they are. Or the idea that anyone or anything can be anything but what it is unless the Potter makes if what it is not.
So this potter spends time and money making pots to be fodder for eternal fire? The Greek manuscripts can suggest that “common use” may be a better translation. However, you seem to be saying that God does indeed create souls to be tortured in hell? Am I missing something?
You claim to believe in total depravity, and yet you argue against it all the time.
It may seem that way to you, but that is not the case.
You claim to believe in unconditional election, yet deny election; to claim to believe in limited atonement but change in what way it is limited according to the doctrine; you balk at irresistible grace and yet if the T and the L are true in the doctrine, the L of necessity must be; you claim to believe in preservation of the sants, yet also believe we can lose our salvation. (And say claim because in the OP you said only one petal was plastic and that seems to be the I.
We remain free to chose through out all eternity. God wishes relationship and not manipulation.
You take the same path, and say the exact same things as Norman Geisler who wrote a book claiming he was a calvinist, that five point Calvinism was extreme Calvinism, and then proceeded to deny every point. And in the very same way you do. WIth not a speck of exegesis in his entire book.
I think there will be surprisingly few theologians in Heaven.
 
Yes, it does it is a person's choice to believe with their heart that they are justified.
<sigh>
That is your claim; but, you have provided zero scriptural evidence for your claim that believing in Jesus from the heart is a result of sinful man's choice. This means that we are back to asking you to provide evidence for your assertion.
I will use your reasoning here and say that Romans 10:10 says nothing about a "new heart".
I provided proof that we start with a hard, stony heart and that God gives a new heart to his people, so that they do his will. It is obviously not from a stony heart that one believes in Jesus! Surely even you will admit that?

Furthermore, the verses you quoted were regarding the restoration of Isreal which appears to refer at least in part to the birth and growth of Christianity. Which called all men to repentance everywhere. This is where one either submits to God or resists God which leads to rejection. Verses 16 through 18 are a great display of God's call and man's choices.

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”
Firstly, the Bible clearly states that repentance is a gift from God (as is faith), so it is not the result of a decision made by sinful man's heart of stone!

Secondly, yes, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God; but, it does not come from that alone. It must be accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, in order effectually to produce repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 1:4,5 (Webster)
4 Knowing, brethren beloved by God, your election.
5 For our gospel came not to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
 
...

We remain free to chose through out all eternity. God wishes relationship and not manipulation.

...
We are free to choose - according to our nature. The natural man will willingly reject the things of the Spirit of God and the born again man will receive them willingly.
 
We are free to choose - according to our nature. The natural man will willingly reject the things of the Spirit of God and the born again man will receive them willingly.
Who hands out the natures? Are you ultimately claiming that Hell will be populated with souls that could not choose to be saved? Soul that God created for that purpose?
 
<sigh>
That is your claim; but, you have provided zero scriptural evidence for your claim that believing in Jesus from the heart is a result of sinful man's choice. This means that we are back to asking you to provide evidence for your assertion.
This is your claim, yet I have provided plenty of support you have not refuted other than to label it as non-support. Are you a sinful man or a sinless man? Are you saying that God cannot raise a man to consciousness of his sin for him to make a conscious choice. God said to sinful people, “Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” Was He just toying with them?


I provided proof that we start with a hard, stony heart and that God gives a new heart to his people, so that they do his will. It is obviously not from a stony heart that one believes in Jesus! Surely even you will admit that?
But God says, “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done, he shall live. This is a clear call to the wicked to choose a different than they have been choosing.

Firstly, the Bible clearly states that repentance is a gift from God (as is faith), so it is not the result of a decision made by sinful man's heart of stone!
It is a gift from God given to all men but many will not take it. Acts 17:30 “In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.” John recorded these words of Christ in John 12:32, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

The only reason all men are not saved is because of the decisions they made.
Secondly, yes, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God; but, it does not come from that alone. It must be accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, in order effectually to produce repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 1:4,5 (Webster)
4 Knowing, brethren beloved by God, your election.
5 For our gospel came not to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

 
First of all, full disclosure. If I were to choose between being on an Island with only Amininists or one with only Calvinists, I would choose the latter since the sincere ones would be fully relying on God alone for their salvation. But I am not fully convinced that the Tulip doesn't have at least one plastic petal albeit an insignificant one of no salvific properties.

Calvinism, it seems to me is preoccupied with how one is saved whereas Aminianism wrings its hands over how to be saved. But, If I understand it correctly, in essence, Calvinism says "It is finished" and there is nothing one can do about it. So why would a Calvinist argue doctrine since it will not change the outcome of what God's sovereignty dictates? What is the core reason to argue forgone conclusions if they are truly forgone?

If one is sealed signed and delivered by Christ to an eternity in paradise, it should not matter whether others believe it or not. Right? Lastly, if we take Calvinism to its logical conclusion, one does not even have to ascribe to reformed theology to be saved: It is God's choice alone and not what one does or believes. So even Arminians can be saved if God chooses them. So why argue?


This Problem appears to be a perpetual - never ending - unresolvable, conflict.

For, Calvinists plainly see the errors of the Arminian.
And, the Arminian plainly sees the errors of the Calvinist.

But, neither can see the error in their own reasoning.

And, if you try to reason with a Calvinist?
He will assume you are an Arminian.

And, if you try to reason with an Arminian?
He will assume you are a Calvinist.

Its a neat trick to keep believers bogged down...
 
Who hands out the natures? Are you ultimately claiming that Hell will be populated with souls that could not choose to be saved? Soul that God created for that purpose?
Hell will be populate with: the devil, demons and people who willingly kept on sinning.

We are all born with a sinful nature, courtesy of Adam, in whom we all sinned.

Rather than send every hell-deserving sinner to hell (that's all of us), God, in his mercy and grace, chose to give some a free pardon (I believe the U.S. President does something similar), involving being given a new heart/spirit, repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
 
This is your claim, yet I have provided plenty of support you have not refuted other than to label it as non-support. Are you a sinful man or a sinless man? Are you saying that God cannot raise a man to consciousness of his sin for him to make a conscious choice.
Consciousness of sin is useless, unless accompanied by willingness to repent and believe. The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God; he hostile towards God; he hates the light and will not come to it that he might have life. I can give you the Scriptural quotes, if you don't know them.

The above means that, unless he is born again, the natural (i.e. not born again) man can neither perceive, nor enter the Kingdom of God, by faith in Jesus Christ.

God said to sinful people, “Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” Was He just toying with them?
That command was under the law of Moses. No-one has ever been saved by law, because by the law is the knowledge of sin; and it gives no power to obey it.

But God says, “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done, he shall live. This is a clear call to the wicked to choose a different than they have been choosing.
This is also the law of Moses, not the gospel. As above, man has no power to keep the law and knowledge of it only increases his guilt.

It is a gift from God given to all men but many will not take it. Acts 17:30 “In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.” John recorded these words of Christ in John 12:32, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

The only reason all men are not saved is because of the decisions they made.
If God gives you repentance, then you are repentant, otherwise to say that God has given you repentance is meaningless double-talk.
 
Let’s go back to my inquiry first. Are you suggesting the God created souls to be damned for eternity?
God creates people. And they are what they are. Sinners. He did not create Adam and Eve as sinners, they became sinners, as did all their progeny. We are a being that sins. And that involves a lot of extraneous to the subject at hand, conversations. All of them complex and lengthy if supported biblically instead of just according to how one happens to feel about them, and "proof texts" that have nothing to do with the topic.

Are you suggesting the seed makes the soil?
So this potter spends time and money making pots to be fodder for eternal fire? The Greek manuscripts can suggest that “common use” may be a better translation. However, you seem to be saying that God does indeed create souls to be tortured in hell?
I dismiss the credibility of posts that resort to the appeal to emotions fallacy, and using strawman wording. God is not a literal potter. Let's look at what comes from the very mouth of God. Romans 9:6-21


6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” b 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” c

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” e

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” f
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

You are the one who said Reformed theology teaches that He made them for eternal fire, not me or any Calvinist I know.
 
It may seem that way to you, but that is not the case.
Tell me. If all of humanity is affected by sin, so is his will. It makes him at enmity with God by nature. You claim that God gave enough grace to everyone to believe and then a choice to accept what they believe or reject it, but that is all it does. How does that change anyone's heart? And if that is what He was going to do, and nothing had to actually change as to the makeup of this sinful by nature creature, could He not do that without sending His Son to the cross? What exactly do you think He did do on the cross?
We remain free to chose through out all eternity. God wishes relationship and not manipulation.
Even after we have died an unbeliever? You can call it manipulation a thousand times a thousand more times, and it will still not become manipulation. What you describe is not a personal relationship at all. The personal relationship is a personal God choosing to save specific persons, that He knew(loved) before He ever created them. The personal relationship is Jesus knowing them each by name, and everything about them, when He hung on that cross, and dying for them anyway. It is His love for us that causes Him to reach down and actually SAVE. Snatching them right out of the kingdom of darkness and bringing them into the kingdom of the Son of His love. In spite of the fact that when He sent that grace they dearly loved the darkness and hated the light. If such an idea makes you furious, I shake my head in wonder.
I think there will be surprisingly few theologians in Heaven.
There you go again, thinking God thinks the same way as you.
Am I missing something?
Quite a lot. It is there but you cannot see it and you will not hear it.
 
The if-then conditional statement strongly suggests a choice. Since I cannot see any indication of force being applied or manipulation being exercised, I conclude that it is a choice. As Jesus said in John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
No if doesn't. Nobody but you is saying that force is applied or manipulation being exercised in the new birth but you. If you are going to argue with Calvinist you can't do so by arguing what it isn't. That is a strawman.
 
I disagree with your assertion.

Really? Who said so? Certainly, you must consider Hebrews 6:4-6

Why do you equate quickening to complete salvation?

Of course not. He intends that everyone should have a free choice to be saved or lost. He does not intend that hell should be filled with suffering souls He created who never had a chance.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Jesus is That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1:9) If everyman is enlightened by Christ why is not every man saved>

I think the opposite is also possible. It becomes convenient for some people to apply multiple meanings to words and texts to get things to fit their beliefs.
Later. That is enough for tonight for me.
 
No if doesn't. Nobody but you is saying that force is applied or manipulation being exercised in the new birth but you. If you are going to argue with Calvinist you can't do so by arguing what it isn't. That is a strawman.
It is by definition. Believe me, I am not the only one who says this.
 

Why do Calvinists debate?​

Do Calvinists debate with other Calvinists? I thought the long-running feud was always Calvinism and Arminianism.
 
Tell me. If all of humanity is affected by sin, so is his will. It makes him at enmity with God by nature. You claim that God gave enough grace to everyone to believe and then a choice to accept what they believe or reject it, but that is all it does. How does that change anyone's heart?
The change of the heart continues if they submit to God. It is a growth process. Jesus likened it to corn sprouting and growing into a full stalk with ears of corn.
And if that is what He was going to do, and nothing had to actually change as to the makeup of this sinful by nature creature, could He not do that without sending His Son to the cross? What exactly do you think He did do on the cross?
He bore the sins of all the world.
Even after we have died an unbeliever? You can call it manipulation a thousand times a thousand more times, and it will still not become manipulation.
Then anyone can resist irresistible grace.
What you describe is not a personal relationship at all. The personal relationship is a personal God choosing to save specific persons, that He knew(loved) before He ever created them.
Which makes God the creator of all those souls in hell who never stood a the chance of a snowball because He never gave them one.
The personal relationship is Jesus knowing them each by name, and everything about them, when He hung on that cross, and dying for them anyway. It is His love for us that causes Him to reach down and actually SAVE. Snatching them right out of the kingdom of darkness and bringing them into the kingdom of the Son of His love. In spite of the fact that when He sent that grace they dearly loved the darkness and hated the light. If such an idea makes you furious, I shake my head in wonder.
It doesn’t because I don’t believe that God commits such an atrocity as damning souls to eternal torture because He does not give them the grace He gave me. He gave all of us the same Grace. That is what the metaphor “He makes it rain on the just and the unjust.” Means.
There you go again, thinking God thinks the same way as you.
No, but I am beginning to think like He does only on a very much smaller level.
Quite a lot. It is there but you cannot see it and you will not hear it.
God is love.
 
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We remain free to chose through out all eternity. God wishes relationship and not manipulation.
God creates relationships. He is not manipulated by the hands of dying mankind. Mankind powerless dead in its trespappases and sin without God is a slave to sin . Who frees them ?
 
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