Why do Calvinists debate?

[Mercy_Shown]

God creates relationships. He is not manipulated by the hands of dying mankind. Mankind powerless dead in its trespappases and sin without God is a slave to sin . Who frees them ?

The son sets us free. But freedom includes choice.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Do Calvinists debate with other Calvinists? I thought the long-running feud was always Calvinism and Arminianism.

They do. Calvinist’s are far from monolithic. Trying to pin down the definition of tulip from a group of Calvinists is like pinning jello to the wall.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

God creates people. And they are what they are. Sinners. He did not create Adam and Eve as sinners, they became sinners, as did all their progeny. We are a being that sins. And that involves a lot of extraneous to the subject at hand, conversations. All of them complex and lengthy if supported biblically instead of just according to how one happens to feel about them, and "proof texts" that have nothing to do with the topic.

Are you suggesting the seed makes the soil?

I dismiss the credibility of posts that resort to the appeal to emotions fallacy, and using strawman wording. God is not a literal potter. Let's look at what comes from the very mouth of God. Romans 9:6-21


6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” b 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” c

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” e

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” f
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

You are the one who said Reformed theology teaches that He made them for eternal fire, not me or any Calvinist I know.

Then you are saying that God does give them the same grace as he did the saved. They did have a chance to be saved. Since He created them he must have extended them grace or else what I said would be true.

 

[Runningman]

They do. Calvinist’s are far from monolithic. Trying to pin down the definition of tulip from a group of Calvinists is like pinning jello to the wall.

Healthy discussion and sometimes debate is good for growth as far as I can tell. Thank you.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Consciousness of sin is useless, unless accompanied by willingness to repent and believe. The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God; he hostile towards God; he hates the light and will not come to it that he might have life. I can give you the Scriptural quotes, if you don't know them.

So once he is born again you assume he is compelled to continue in life or can He choose to return to his sin as both Jesus and Paul indicated.

The above means that, unless he is born again, the natural (i.e. not born again) man can neither perceive, nor enter the Kingdom of God, by faith in Jesus Christ.


That command was under the law of Moses. No-one has ever been saved by law, because by the law is the knowledge of sin; and it gives no power to obey it.


This is also the law of Moses, not the gospel. As above, man has no power to keep the law and knowledge of it only increases his guilt.

Gid says that He changes not. The scriptures of the early Church was the OT.

If God gives you repentance, then you are repentant, otherwise to say that God has given you repentance is meaningless double-talk.

Repentance installed in a man that does not come from his own volition is useless and not genuine.

Hell will be populate with: the devil, demons and people who willingly kept on sinning.

We are all born with a sinful nature, courtesy of Adam, in whom we all sinned.

Rather than send every hell-deserving sinner to hell (that's all of us), God, in his mercy and grace, chose to give some a free pardon (I believe the U.S. President does something similar), involving being given a new heart/spirit, repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

and the many He chose to deny them grace. Every one of them created by him.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Consciousness of sin is useless, unless accompanied by willingness to repent and believe. The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God; he hostile towards God; he hates the light and will not come to it that he might have life. I can give you the Scriptural quotes, if you don't know them.
So once he is born again you assume he is compelled to continue in life or can He choose to return to his sin as both Jesus and Paul indicated.

The above means that, unless he is born again, the natural (i.e. not born again) man can neither perceive, nor enter the Kingdom of God, by faith in Jesus Christ.


That command was under the law of Moses. No-one has ever been saved by law, because by the law is the knowledge of sin; and it gives no power to obey it.


This is also the law of Moses, not the gospel. As above, man has no power to keep the law and knowledge of it only increases his guilt.

Gid says that He changes not. The scriptures of the early Church was the OT.

If God gives you repentance, then you are repentant, otherwise to say that God has given you repentance is meaningless double-talk.

Repentance installed in a man that does not come from his own volition is useless and not genuine.

In Acts 5:31we read “Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”

So why did Israel not repent? The answer lies in the fact that Gid granted it to them but only a few chose to exercise it and repent of their sins.

 

[Mr GLee]

The son sets us free. But freedom includes choice.

The Father or Holy Spirit demonstrated his labor of love by revealing it through dying mankind the Son of man Jesus

,In that way we look to the unseen eternal things of God and not the temporal seen. By the work of the father that worked in the Son of man, Jesus.to both revel the il and empower s dying mankind tpo performit

Jesus strengthened by the unseen Holy Father sent Jesus as a apostles empoweing him to finish it to the glory of the unseen Holy Father. The unseen Holy father set us free to do His good will .

Freedom is the power to do the will of the Creator

John 4:33-35King James Version33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

 

[ReverendRV]

They do. Calvinist’s are far from monolithic. Trying to pin down the definition of tulip from a group of Calvinists is like pinning jello to the wall.

When it comes to the Fundamentals of Calvinism; for instance TULIP and the 5-Solas; I think Calvinists are easy to Pin down. Other things which can be thought of as Calvinistc? That may be Jell-O...

Total Depravity? We all agree. Unconditional Election? We all agree. Limited Atonement? Well, you get the picture. Sola Scriptura? We all agree. Sola Gratia? We all agree. Sola Scriptura? Well, you still get the picture...

Now, someone like me may explain TULIP differently; but it's still TULIP. A Calvinist's different range of explanatory power, doesn't mean he doesn't believe TULIP; just because his range is more or less extensive. The definition of each Doctrine of Grace IS Monolithic, though different Calvinists may explain the definition differently. A definition is not the same as an explanation of a definition...

There is only one definition of TULIP. It's an acronym for the Doctrines of Grace; which are Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace and the Perseverance of the Saints. Total Depravity means all of our Being is Totally affected by the Curse of Original Sin, and therefore is Fallen; which results in our Inability to do anything that doesn't Fall short of the Glory of God. Unconditional Election means there is no condition offered to Man by God, by which we can influence God's Choice to Favor us for Salvation. Limited Atonement is God's limiting Christ's Atonement to his people 'Spiritual Israel', to keep the Promises he made Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Irresistible Grace is the Efficacious working of the Holy Spirit to thwart Total Depravity, and to Draw his Elect to Christ. The Perseverance of the Saints is our Running the Race by Grace as to Win the Prize of Salvation...

That may be the definition of TULIP, but it's not necessarily the Explanation of TULIP..

 

[Mercy_Shown]

When it comes to the Fundamentals of Calvinism; for instance TULIP and the 5-Solas; I think Calvinists are easy to Pin down. Other things which can be thought of as Calvinistc? That may be Jell-O...

Total Depravity? We all agree. Unconditional Election? We all agree. Limited Atonement? Well, you get the picture. Sola Scriptura? We all agree. Sola Gratia? We all agree. Sola Scriptura? Well, you still get the picture...

Now, someone like me may explain TULIP differently; but it's still TULIP. A Calvinist's different range of explanatory power, doesn't mean he doesn't believe TULIP; just because his range is more or less extensive. The definition of each Doctrine of Grace IS Monolithic, though different Calvinists may explain the definition differently. A definition is not the same as an explanation of a definition...

There is only one definition of TULIP. It's an acronym for the Doctrines of Grace; which are Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace and the Perseverance of the Saints. Total Depravity means all of our Being is Totally affected by the Curse of Original Sin, and therefore is Fallen; which results in our Inability to do anything that doesn't Fall short of the Glory of God. Unconditional Election means there is no condition offered to Man by God, by which we can influence God's Choice to Favor us for Salvation. Limited Atonement is God's limiting Christ's Atonement to his people 'Spiritual Israel', to keep the Promises he made Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Irresistible Grace is the Efficacious working of the Holy Spirit to thwart Total Depravity, and begin to Draw his Elect to Christ. The Perseverance of the Saints is our Running the Race by Grace as to Win the Prize of Salvation...

That may be the definition of TULIP, but it's not necessarily the Explanation of TULIP..

That is somewhat like Jello to many people. An explanation of a definition leaves a lot of wiggle room. But to be fair the same is true of any theology whether reformed, practical, historical, or whatever theology you pick. That is why theology can't save us. In all of these theologies, the explanation of definitions devolves into explanations of the explanations of the definitions and so on. Add to that the human predilection to tweak things to their liking and soon we are herding angle worms.

Take this thread for instance, my question was long ago answered, Calvinists debate ostensibly to call those whom God has ordained for salvation. Of course, we have devolved into who is right and who is wrong about the nature of God which seems to demonstrate that Calvinists debate for the same reason all of us do: To defend our points of view.

And yet our points of view mean nothing so the temptation is to believe that we are arguing God's point of view and that is where it can become dangerous.

 

[Mr GLee]

So once he is born again you assume he is compelled to continue in life or can He choose to return to his sin as both Jesus and Paul indicated.

As if man were free from sin living in a earthen powerless body of death ?

Better things accompany salvation (real salvation) and not a kick start.. . . your on your own good luck.

If Christ the Holy Spirit has begun the good teaching in us he will continue till the last day we leave these earthen bodies of sin .

Philippians 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Having established the above law it is sealed in the next chapter

Philippians2 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Some forget its His daily forgiveness of sin.

Not every time we error we must crucify the Son of Man Jesus to public shame .One demonstration of the Son of man Jesus and the unseen Father is all that was promised. Salvation is of the lord, all of it or nothing

hebrew 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Arial]

Then you are saying that God does give them the same grace as he did the saved. They did have a chance to be saved. Since He created them he must have extended them grace or else what I said would be true.

God owes no one anything. The real problem any have with certain aspects of Reformed theology is that they have decided what kind of God they will and will not worship, and then take His word and nothing but finite reasoning trying to reach into the infinite and discover the operation of the mind of the infinite One, in order to build an image of Him that suits them. And so quite naturally, they arrive at the conclusion that God thinks and feels and does, just as they do. When they reason with Him (which is really about Him) they discover He agrees with them. Lost is the very concept of faith in God in those things we cannot see. Instead we hear things such as, "If You are not fair, if You do not give the same grace, do not give to each equal opportunity to choose if they love light and not darkness, then You are manipulative and evil. How dare you,"
they say, "do anything without our consent!"

 

[Arial]

The change of the heart continues if they submit to God. It is a growth process. Jesus likened it to corn sprouting and growing into a full stalk with ears of corn.

You are describing sanctification which follows salvation and not salvation itself. It is the Vine producing fruit in the branch. The way you look at it is actually works salvation and I have seen you fight long and hard against works salvation. So what happened?

He bore the sins of all the world

Then He failed miserably if you say, as you do, that the world in this case is every individual ever without exception. And after that creating an oxymoron caveat, except only for those who want to be saved.Whereas it is quite obvious that world in that case must be what actually did happen. The gospel of salvation was carried and heard unto the ends of the earth to all men without distinction. Jesus speaking through the means of His people, gathering in His sheep. And if those sheep are the one's the Father is giving to the Son because He loved them before the foundation of the world, as Scripture tells us, then salvation is from beginning to end back in God's hands, not needing a thing from the creature to accomplish His purpose. But we cannot have that can we?

Then anyone can resist irresistible grace.

Faulty reasoning.

Which makes God the creator of all those souls in hell who never stood a the chance of a snowball because He never gave them one.

God forbid that any should receive justice or that God should be just ever. He is not the author of sin. He made no one become a sinner. You can either have faith that God knows what He is doing, that He always does everything perfectly and always according to all of His attributes operating perfectly and equally, and for the good of His covenant people, even if we can't see it; even if it does not look or feel like good to us; even if we cannot see beyond the boundaries of our finiteness; even if we don't like it; or we can not trust that and instead begin telling Him how He is, what He thinks, what He does and doesn't do, so that we can trust the image of Him we have come up with.

It doesn’t because I don’t believe that God commits such an atrocity as damning souls to eternal torture because He does not give them the grace He gave me. He gave all of us the same Grace. That is what the metaphor “He makes it rain on the just and the unjust.” Means.

See above. And that is not what "He makes it rain on the just and the unjust." means. Neither is it a metaphor. That is not saving grace, that is common grace.

God is love.

And He is equally just.

 

[Arial]

Believe me, I am not the only one who says this.

In this thread. It is what you keep saying about the teachings of Reformed theology. ANd it is a straw man. It is your opinion of the theology presented as the theology.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

In this thread. It is what you keep saying about the teachings of Reformed theology. ANd it is a straw man. It is your opinion of the theology presented as the theology.

Can a person choose to be saved or lost?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

You are describing sanctification which follows salvation and not salvation itself. It is the Vine producing fruit in the branch. The way you look at it is actually works salvation and I have seen you fight long and hard against works salvation. So what happened?

I have never fought against submitting to God. I don't consider that a work. It is a blessing. "Come onto me all ye who are heavy laden..." An invitation to find peace Joy and rest. No, submission to God is not works or work, it is rest.

Then He failed miserably if you say, as you do, that the world in this case is every individual ever without exception. And after that creating an oxymoron caveat, except only for those who want to be saved.Whereas it is quite obvious that world in that case must be what actually did happen. The gospel of salvation was carried and heard unto the ends of the earth to all men without distinction. Jesus speaking through the means of His people, gathering in His sheep. And if those sheep are the one's the Father is giving to the Son because He loved them before the foundation of the world, as Scripture tells us, then salvation is from beginning to end back in God's hands, not needing a thing from the creature to accomplish His purpose. But we cannot have that can we?

The simple explanation is to understand nothing more than what the texts say:

• Eph 1:4 - For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence.

This is an idea that the NT repeats in numerous ways throughout the NT. That is, God decided to save people before any even sinned. The "us" in verse 4 refers to to whom. I would argue the apostles because we see in verse 13 that the Ephesians were included later in Christ. When were they included? When they heard the message of truth. The Ephesians were not marked and sealed until they believed.

• Verse 12 ...in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ... This is a choice
• Verse 13 When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, They chose to believe

Stated another way, the appearance of sin did not catch God by surprise, a Savior existed before there was a sinner:

• 1 Peter 1:20 - He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
• Rev 13:8 - All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

God wants to save all people

• John 1:29, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”
• John 3:16, “God so loved the world that He gave …”
• John 12:32, “I [Jesus] … will draw all people to myself.”
• John 12:47, “… for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.”
• Acts 17:30, “God … commands all people everywhere to repent.”
• Rom 3:23, 24, “… for all have sinned … and all are freely forgiven...”
• Rom 5:8, 10, “… while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. … if, while were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him by the death of His Son, …”
• Rom 5:15, “But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s [Adam’s] offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to the many.” [Note the same word, “many” applies to all people.]
• Rom 5:18, “Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all people, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all people, resulting in justification of life.”
• Rom 11:32, “For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”
• 2 Cor 5:14, “…we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.”
• 2 Cor 5:18, 19, “…God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ …”
• 1 Tim 2:3, 4, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
• 1 Tim 2:6, “[Jesus Christ] gave Himself as a ransom for all people.”
• 1 Tim 4:10, For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.
• Titus 2:11, “For the grace of God appeared bringing salvation to all people.”
• Heb 2:9, “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”
• 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
• 1 John 2:2, “He Himself [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours [Christians to whom John writes] only but also for the whole world.”
• Isa 53:6, “We all like sheep have gone astray … and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

The Bible frequently makes this same point of wanting to save all people by emphasizing that God does not show favouritism but treats all people impartially (Duet 10:17-19, 2 Chron 19:7, Eze 18:25, Mk 12:14, Acts 10:34 Rom 2:10-11; Eph 6:9, 1 Pet 1:17).

Thus, God saved (“elected”) all people by extending His Grace to everyone, even before they sinned! Further, God did this without any input from us, nor request from us, nor consultation with sinners (Eph 2:5). Unfortunately, many will reject this wonderful, free offer.

Faulty reasoning.

God forbid that any should receive justice or that God should be just ever. He is not the author of sin. He made no one become a sinner. You can either have faith that God knows what He is doing, that He always does everything perfectly and always according to all of His attributes operating perfectly and equally, and for the good of His covenant people, even if we can't see it; even if it does not look or feel like good to us; even if we cannot see beyond the boundaries of our finiteness; even if we don't like it; or we can not trust that and instead begin telling Him how He is, what He thinks, what He does and doesn't do, so that we can trust the image of Him we have come up with.

See above. And that is not what "He makes it rain on the just and the unjust." means. Neither is it a metaphor. That is not saving grace, that is common grace.

And He is equally just.

The Bible does not parse grace. Grace is grace and not something else. It is also possible that the whole doctrine of irresistible grace is incorrect. and that God does, as the bible says, want to save all people everywhere.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

God owes no one anything. The real problem any have with certain aspects of Reformed theology is that they have decided what kind of God they will and will not worship, and then take His word and nothing but finite reasoning trying to reach into the infinite and discover the operation of the mind of the infinite One, in order to build an image of Him that suits them. And so quite naturally, they arrive at the conclusion that God thinks and feels and does, just as they do. When they reason with Him (which is really about Him) they discover He agrees with them. Lost is the very concept of faith in God in those things we cannot see. Instead we hear things such as, "If You are not fair, if You do not give the same grace, do not give to each equal opportunity to choose if they love light and not darkness, then You are manipulative and evil. How dare you,"
they say, "do anything without our consent!"

Perhaps the "they" view Calvinists with the same lens. Do they ignore the text that says God wishes to save all people? Do they dismiss the texts that say God is no respecter of persons? Do they come up with categories of grace that are not found in the bible to explain difficult positions?

I would not be too hard on the "they" since everyone who has a heart for God is seeking Him and those who don't do not seek Him do not want to find Him. There will be a lot of misconceptions discovered in our closets when we get to heaven.

God has made salvation simple for us all. Believe in, adhere to, and Follow Jesus Christ.

 

[ReverendRV]

That is somewhat like Jello to many people. An explanation of a definition leaves a lot of wiggle room. But to be fair the same is true of any theology whether reformed, practical, historical, or whatever theology you pick. That is why theology can't save us. In all of these theologies, the explanation of definitions devolves into explanations of the explanations of the definitions and so on. Add to that the human predilection to tweak things to their liking and soon we are herding angle worms.

Take this thread for instance, my question was long ago answered, Calvinists debate ostensibly to call those whom God has ordained for salvation. Of course, we have devolved into who is right and who is wrong about the nature of God which seems to demonstrate that Calvinists debate for the same reason all of us do: To defend our points of view.

And yet our points of view mean nothing so the temptation is to believe that we are arguing God's point of view and that is where it can become dangerous.

Well before I go, would you say every Calvinist believes TULIP, or their not 5-Point Calvinists? If you can say this, I'm right; Calvinists believe the same...

I'm not asking much, so not answering shows me you need your assertion, in order to win. Obviously there's something Fundamental about Calvinists, that Calvinists hold hands on...

 

[Mercy_Shown]

As if man were free from sin living in a earthen powerless body of death ?

Better things accompany salvation (real salvation) and not a kick start.. . . your on your own good luck.

If Christ the Holy Spirit has begun the good teaching in us he will continue till the last day we leave these earthen bodies of sin .

Philippians 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Having established the above law it is sealed in the next chapter

Philippians2 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Some forget its His daily forgiveness of sin.

Not every time we error we must crucify the Son of Man Jesus to public shame .One demonstration of the Son of man Jesus and the unseen Father is all that was promised. Salvation is of the lord, all of it or nothing

hebrew 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Sadly some fall away. I know that reformed theology portrays those as ones who were never saved in the first place, but the bible does not say that. That is a theologian addition to scripture. All we know is that some leave the faith. So faith has been left and if one falls away, they must fall away from something and they must have been elevated by it to fall.

Salvation is of the Lord. It is his free gift and by definition one may refuse a gift. Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they would not accept it

 

[Arial]

Merry Christmas

It was a long and busy and wonderful Christmas. Hope yours was just as blessed.

 

[Mr GLee]

Sadly some fall away. I know that reformed theology portrays those as ones who were never saved in the first place, but the bible does not say that. That is a theologian addition to scripture. All we know is that some leave the faith. So faith has been left and if one falls away, they must fall away from something and they must have been elevated by it to fall.

Salvation is of the Lord. It is his free gift and by definition one may refuse a gift. Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they would not accept it

Hi thanks
It does say that some tasted of the grace but they did not do the will of the Father .Having no power of thier own .Unlike those yoked with him .
Philippians 2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Jesus did the will of the Father with delight some murmur and say "what about me ?"

Better things accompany salvation .God promises he will not forget the good works we can offer in respect to the power of His name

God is not served by the dying hands as a will of mankind Never was never will be

Hebrew 6:4-11 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: