Why do Calvinists debate?

[Mercy_Shown]

Fair enough, but the Bible says Nature speaks to us about God's existence. But there's no need to quibble over it...

Would you say then that the Law of God is a Call?

No, it is a teacher to those who submit to the Holy Spirit's work in them. A call is an active initiative of God's. I am still pondering the difference between being called and chosen. Perhaps that is really what we are talking about rather than two types of calls. I especially find it difficult to view God as calling anyone while intending to not give them the grace needed to answer that call.

Now if we look at Judas, He was called and chosen and yet was a devil. There are many questions I still have but ultimately I trust God even if I do not have an answer.

I struggled in my Arminian Christianity between Grace and works for years. I finally chose Grace and yet lived a reprobate lifestyle laying the reigns of my life on the neck of my lust. I hurt many innocent people while calling myself a Christian. The Lord began revealing me to myself and yet I was unable to stop the debauchery. I suppressed it on the outside but it roared like a furnace on the inside. Frankly, I lived the life of a sinner while claiming to be saved by Grace. I used rationalization to defend myself against my conscience.

I even blamed God for my condition, after all, He did not take the sin from me even though I prayed every day he would. Then He came and burned my religion to the Ground. My mother became ill and I prayed for her life day and night. I was convinced she would be healed and even prepared little signs to post on her hospital bed so that God would be praised. I promised God everything if He would heal her and I came to firmly believe He was going to. But on a cold February day 4 days after my birthday, she breathed her last. I was insane with grief. There was no God! It was all a lie.

I remember going down to a lonely spot in the river and standing there wondering what was next and as real as real can be a giant hole seemed to open up in the water about 6 feet from me. It was the blackest hole with white vapor streaming down into it from around the sides. It seemed to suck my very spirit from me. Immediately the words, "Will you leave also?" came into my mind as if they were spoken aloud. The moment of my choice had arrived. A life without God or one with him?

At that moment I said, "Lord, no, for who else has the words of life." When I opened my eyes, the river was flowing normally and the tricolored blackbirds were chirring in the rushes. A muskrat swam across where the hole had been. All was calm. From that point on I surrendered myself to Jesus to do His will and His good pleasure in me. I gave my debauchery, sinful lifestyle and self-centeredness to Him and He has been cleaning me up ever since. The only force from Him is the force of love. There is no reason that He should love me, but He does. At every juncture of His magnificent work in me, He does nothing unless I submit it to Him. Truly, as James stated, If I submit myself unto God and I resist the devil, he will flee from me.

Sorry for the long post. I did not plan to share this and I am not sure why I did except may it be to God's Glory.

 

[Arial]

Nowhere in the Bible does it state or say that the human WILL is in bondage to sin. It just doesn't say that ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE. Whoever came up with those ideas was obviously wrong.

I googled and found that Augustine and Luther were mentioned as sources for this "will in bondage" idea. As far as I am concerned, you cannot derive that doctrine from any passage or verse of the Bible.

It is easy to conclude that that Theological idea is not scripture, so it cannot be taken seriously.

If it i s wrong, you should be able to tell us what is right and demonstrate it from the scriptures.

The scriptures do not say specifically that the will is in bondage to sin, but it definitely shows it to be the case.
Rom 5:12-19;Romans 6:17-18;Romans 7:16-20;Psalm 51:5. It is what Jesus came and set us free from.

 

[Arial]

You cannot be regenerated BEFORE you believe if both of those events happen at the same TIME. You have not provided evidence from the scriptures to come up with this "regeneration comes before faith" thing. It is pure theological speculation to bolster belief systems derived from scripture that aren't necessarily in there.

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to your, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one if born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

 

[ReverendRV]

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to your, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one if born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

And, we enter through Faith; so unless we're Born Again, we can't enter through Faith...

Circular Reasoning? No, Linear Reasoning...

 

[Mercy_Shown]

And, we enter through Faith; so unless we're Born Again, we can't enter through Faith...

Circular Reasoning? No, Linear Reasoning...

Faith is the biblical key to salvation and righteousness.

 

[ReverendRV]

Faith is the biblical key to salvation and righteousness.

Right...

But that doesn't Rule out Grace preceding Faith...

I'll read your other Post in a minute...

 

[ReverendRV]

I especially find it difficult to view God as calling anyone while intending to not give them the grace needed to answer that call.

Is the Gospel a Call? Surely it is...

When it comes to the Parable of the Sower, how do you interpret it? "As Is", is a good answer, but I mean how do you interpret it's Spiritual Meaning? The difference can have a lot to do with showing how God Calls people through the Gospel, he never intends to Save...

A Calvinist will tell you that God only intends to Save the Good Soil. If this is true, doesn't the Gospel Seed 'Call' Soils God doesn't mean to Save?

 

[ReverendRV]

No, it is a teacher to those who submit to the Holy Spirit's work in them. A call is an active initiative of God's. I am still pondering the difference between being called and chosen. Perhaps that is really what we are talking about rather than two types of calls. I especially find it difficult to view God as calling anyone while intending to not give them the grace needed to answer that call.

Now if we look at Judas, He was called and chosen and yet was a devil. There are many questions I still have but ultimately I trust God even if I do not have an answer.

I struggled in my Arminian Christianity between Grace and works for years. I finally chose Grace and yet lived a reprobate lifestyle laying the reigns of my life on the neck of my lust. I hurt many innocent people while calling myself a Christian. The Lord began revealing me to myself and yet I was unable to stop the debauchery. I suppressed it on the outside but it roared like a furnace on the inside. Frankly, I lived the life of a sinner while claiming to be saved by Grace. I used rationalization to defend myself against my conscience.

I even blamed God for my condition, after all, He did not take the sin from me even though I prayed every day he would. Then He came and burned my religion to the Ground. My mother became ill and I prayed for her life day and night. I was convinced she would be healed and even prepared little signs to post on her hospital bed so that God would be praised. I promised God everything if He would heal her and I came to firmly believe He was going to. But on a cold February day 4 days after my birthday, she breathed her last. I was insane with grief. There was no God! It was all a lie.

I remember going down to a lonely spot in the river and standing there wondering what was next and as real as real can be a giant hole seemed to open up in the water about 6 feet from me. It was the blackest hole with white vapor streaming down into it from around the sides. It seemed to suck my very spirit from me. Immediately the words, "Will you leave also?" came into my mind as if they were spoken aloud. The moment of my choice had arrived. A life without God or one with him?

At that moment I said, "Lord, no, for who else has the words of life." When I opened my eyes, the river was flowing normally and the tricolored blackbirds were chirring in the rushes. A muskrat swam across where the hole had been. All was calm. From that point on I surrendered myself to Jesus to do His will and His good pleasure in me. I gave my debauchery, sinful lifestyle and self-centeredness to Him and He has been cleaning me up ever since. The only force from Him is the force of love. There is no reason that He should love me, but He does. At every juncture of His magnificent work in me, He does nothing unless I submit it to Him. Truly, as James stated, If I submit myself unto God and I resist the devil, he will flee from me.

Sorry for the long post. I did not plan to share this and I am not sure why I did except may it be to God's Glory.

Please excuse me, I usually only respond one point at a time. I believe multiple questions can be distracting rabbit trails...

If you want, you and @Arial can read the Rules in this Link; and I will moderate a Debate for you...

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/is-anyone-interested-in-having-a-moderated-debate.1356/post-53951

Arial, would you please Pin the Thread in this Link to the Debate Board it is a part of for me? I don't think I have the ability...

 

[Josheb]

I can't change the bible. It would be too risky for me.

The point is that you have tried to do exactly that by ignoring the word "impossible." Was my post not sufficiently clear?

However, if we consider the Greek word translated as "impossible" it indicates that it is referring to the individual rather than to God. It connotes impotence on their part to repent again.

Read it again.

People do not renew themselves, and the most definitely do not renew themselves by the Holy Spirit by which they have been enlightened, having tasted the heavenly gift, and partaken of the Holy Spirit. You are arguing two sides of the fence, assuming God saves them but once saved they cannot save themselves when they did not save themselves in the first place and if it was God who saved them in the first place, and nothing is impossible for God then the words, "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance," do NOT mean God cannot renew them and they do NOT mean their salvation was irrevocably lost never to be attained again.

Because nothing is impossible for God.

Look up the verse that speak of renewal (restoration, making new or fresh again). Do any of them refer to renewing oneself in one's own flesh? Here is a sample:

Romans 12:1-2
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

2 Corinthians 4:13-18
But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed; therefore, I spoke," we also believe; therefore, we also speak, knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God. Therefore, we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Ephesians 4:17-24
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Colossians 3:5-11
Therefore, consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

Titus 3:1-7
Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Or do you think Hebrews 6:6 should be read in exclusion of all those texts, that it means something entirely different than all the rest of the epistolary's discussion of renewal, and that the renewal that? If the Hebrews 6 passage is saying it is impossible for a human to renew himself then that is not indication salvation is irrevocably lost because God can save and renew anyone. If, in contrast, it is God and God alone who renews a person soteriologically then your use of Hebrews 6 cannot be made to say salvation can be lost.

 

[Josheb]

One would have to be God to know if this is the case or not.

???????

If that is true then how can anyone know if salvation is lost (unless one is God)?

At what point does salvation occur?

Great point.

Eternally speaking, salvation was decided and accomplished for all that are saved prior to a single atom being spoken into existence. Temporally speaking, salvation begins with conversion, proceeds throughout the person's life span, and is concluded in the transformative work of resurrection and none of it is caused by sinful human flesh. It is all the work of God and God is almighty, never-failing, and always accomplishes that which He sets out to do. That is how we can and do know we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved while others are left to guess.

For God who knows all things, it has occurred already, but for us mortals, we must tread the timeline until we die or He comes again.

No!

That is nonsense. If God knows you or I have been saved, then we have been saved whether we know it or not. Being mortal does NOT change that. YDo not ontology with epistemology.

 

[Arial]

If you want, you and @Arial can read the Rules in this Link; and I will moderate a Debate for you...

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/is-anyone-interested-in-having-a-moderated-debate.1356/post-53951
Arial, would you please Pin the Thread in this Link to the Debate Board it is a part of for me? I don't think I have the ability...

I am not sure what you are asking me to do.

As to debating Irresistible Grace with @Mercy_Shown I am willing, as long as it is in debate form as outlined. What has been going on in our exchanges does not qualify as a debate imo.

 

[ReverendRV]

I am not sure what you are asking me to do.

As to debating Irresistible Grace with @Mercy_Shown I am willing, as long as it is in debate form as outlined. What has been going on in our exchanges does not qualify as a debate imo.

I can't Pin my Rules Thread at the top of the Private Debates Board. @Carbon can, so I thought you can...

 

[Arial]

I can't Pin my Rules Thread at the top of the Private Debates Board. @Carbon can, so I thought you can...

OK. I will give it a try.

 

[David1701]

Yes, God works in us if we do not resist him. The reality of the free ticket to heaven is moot if I do not believe it is real. We must choose to believe. That God would place individuals in hell is a hard thing to think about let alone believe that God placed them there by His own will rather than bless them with effectual Grace.

Please show where the Bible says that believing in Jesus Christ results from sinful man's choice, thanks.

 

[Arial]

I can't Pin my Rules Thread at the top of the Private Debates Board. @Carbon can, so I thought you can...

The rules are already on the debate board. I don't see a way to move it to the top. Maybe @Carbon can.

 

[Josheb]

"Irresistible grace" is a theological concept within the framework of Reformed or Calvinistic Christian theology. Irresistible grace, also known as efficacious grace, is the idea that when God extends His grace to an individual, it is so powerful and effective that the person cannot resist or reject it.

No, that is not what Irresistible Grace means. Irresistible Grace (IG) is also called effectual grace because IG is about God, not man. God's grace is effectual. It is effective. God's grace effects the outcome God intends. Nothing more.

In other words, those whom God has chosen for salvation will inevitably and irresistibly come to faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, but that is not because they cannot resist God of His grace. The reason those God chooses to save will come to faith is because God is effective. He accomplishes what He sets out to accomplish.

This concept emphasizes God's sovereign work in the salvation of individuals, asserting that human will is unable to thwart God's purpose in bringing someone to faith.

God's work is sovereign but that has nothing to do with the human will being able or unable to thwart God's purpose.

This is changing one's thinking and will without their consent or knowledge.

Nonsense. First, consent and knowledge are two completely different conditions. No one is converted from death to life without knowing it so the idea that people get saved without their knowledge is nonsense. As far as consent goes, consent is irrelevant! The arguments attempting to leverage consent have always been red herrings.

Analogy: If I happen upon a man who has been rendered unconscious in an accident in which he will die is assistance is not rendered in a timely manner, I can shake that man all I like but because he is unconscious no amount of shaking will result in his consent for me to render aid. So.... I give CPR and revive the man. Does he then complain, "Hey, you did that without my consent! You brought me back to life without my knowing it!"

You went on record stating Total Depravity (TD) was Calvin's greatest contribution to Christian theology. If you really believe that then you know man is unable to come to God for salvation in his own might. Someone needs to arose him and bring him back to life. when he cannot consent!

The moment you concede to TD you must concede the matters of consent and knowledge.

It makes one wonder why sin was allowed in the first place.

Off-topic. Sin does exist and it is a given in the debate over IG.

If it is going to be eradicated by passive force then why even allow it at all?

The only force is that which is imposed on sin.

Also, it portrays a God who damns individuals to hell while disallowing the efficacious grace to them that would save them. At the same time He is freely giving it to others. This does not seem to comport with a God who is love.

Yes, the way you understand IG is hugely problematic, but you have not correctly understood Irresistible Grace.


As to whether or not a human can give consent,

Romans 8:5-8
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh......... For the mind of flesh is death.......... the mind of flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Unsaved people do not have the Spirit. All they have is their flesh and their flesh is dead in sin. According to Paul, not Calvin, the person who has only their mind of flesh cannot please God. Not only do they do not, the cannot.

You have started with a conscious, living, knowing, and responsive person but none of those qualities exist in the sinfully dead and enslaved person absent the Spirit. The moment you acknowledge Total Depravity valid you had to concede all the faculties by which a person might believe because nothing a sinful persona does can or will merit salvation.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Those who are saved know and understand these things.

1 Corinthians 2:3-13
And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

• The message (of the gospel) came in demonstration of the Spirit (not plausible words of wisdom).
• It is a secret and hidden wisdom of God which was decreed before the ages of our glory.
• It is revealed through and taught by the Spirit (not by human wisdom).
• The natural human cannot accept it.
• The natural man cannot understand it.
• It is foolishness to the natural man.
• It requires the Spirit.

So.....

What would a person without the ability to know and/or consent do? Die! That is all they can do. Blessedly, while we were still sinners Christ died for us so that we might have eternal life.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Please show where the Bible says that believing in Jesus Christ results from sinful man's choice, thanks.

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:10

 

[ReverendRV]

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:10

Oh, he's going to call you out on that one...

 

[Mercy_Shown]

No, that is not what Irresistible Grace means. Irresistible Grace (IG) is also called effectual grace because IG is about God, not man. God's grace is effectual. It is effective. God's grace effects the outcome God intends. Nothing more.

This highlights the deficit of labels. I know at least half a dozen people who are the Calvinism label that would disagree with you. So it is evident that self-described calvanists do not agree on exactly what IG is. Now let's cut to the chance: Can IG be resisted and rejected by one upon whom God is bestowing it?

Yes, but that is not because they cannot resist God of His grace. The reason those God chooses to save will come to faith is because God is effective. He accomplishes what He sets out to accomplish.

Therefore all men should be saved since that is the will of God.

God's work is sovereign but that has nothing to do with the human will being able or unable to thwart God's purpose.

Of course not, God's purpose is to bring mankind to the point where they can reject or submit of their own free choice. That is why Christ died on the cross instead of simply speaking the word and changing everyone's minds, hearts, and purposes to His own.

Nonsense. First, consent and knowledge are two completely different conditions. No one is converted from death to life without knowing it so the idea that people get saved without their knowledge is nonsense. As far as consent goes, consent is irrelevant! The arguments attempting to leverage consent have always been red herrings.

Because you say so? I don't think so. That is an argument by fiat.

Analogy: If I happen upon a man who has been rendered unconscious in an accident in which he will die is assistance is not rendered in a timely manner, I can shake that man all I like but because he is unconscious no amount of shaking will result in his consent for me to render aid. So.... I give CPR and revive the man. Does he then complain, "Hey, you did that without my consent! You brought me back to life without my knowing it!"

It depends, did he have a DNR order in place? Was he trying to commit suicide? After is conscious he can decide whether to submit to the doctors or resist their efforts to help him heal.

You went on record stating Total Depravity (TD) was Calvin's greatest contribution to Christian theology. If you really believe that then you know man is unable to come to God for salvation in his own might. Someone needs to arose him and bring him back to life. when he cannot consent!

Of course, it was. God brings us to life so that we may either consent or resist. If a man cannot consent and still be saved, then how is it he is guilty of consenting to sin? Those whom Calvin claimed were never made alive cannot be held responsible for things they are unaware of.

The moment you concede to TD you must concede the matters of consent and knowledge.

Only if I accept your premise but I don't.

The only force is that which is imposed on sin.

Don't know what you mean

Yes, the way you understand IG is hugely problematic, but you have not correctly understood Irresistible Grace.

Is it then actually resistible? That is the bottom line. If it is not resistable then we are still at square 1.

As to whether or not a human can give consent,

Romans 8:5-8
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh......... For the mind of flesh is death.......... the mind of flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Unsaved people do not have the Spirit. All they have is their flesh and their flesh is dead in sin. According to Paul, not Calvin, the person who has only their mind of flesh cannot please God. Not only do they do not, the cannot.

True, that is why God lights every man who comes into this world so that they may choose. If God did not do that, no one would be guilty of sin since they cannot know God. One must know God to know what sin is.

You have started with a conscious, living, knowing, and responsive person but none of those qualities exist in the sinfully dead and enslaved person absent the Spirit. The moment you acknowledge Total Depravity valid you had to concede all the faculties by which a person might believe because nothing a sinful persona does can or will merit salvation.

That is why God took away the sins of the world. That was His purpose. Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Sin was defeated on the cross but God did not and does not force anyone to His side. Those who are lost are condemned because they love darkness more than light. But they would never have understood darkness unless they saw the light.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Those who are saved know and understand these things.

Those who are saved are those who love light more than darkness having seen both.

1 Corinthians 2:3-13
And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

• The message (of the gospel) came in demonstration of the Spirit (not plausible words of wisdom).
• It is a secret and hidden wisdom of God which was decreed before the ages of our glory.
• It is revealed through and taught by the Spirit (not by human wisdom).
• The natural human cannot accept it.
• The natural man cannot understand it.
• It is foolishness to the natural man.
• It requires the Spirit.

So.....

What would a person without the ability to know and/or consent do? Die! That is all they can do. Blessedly, while we were still sinners Christ died for us so that we might have eternal life.

That is not a view of God that comports with what He claims to be. Love! God died for not just us but for the whole world. 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

???????

If that is true then how can anyone know if salvation is lost (unless one is God)?

Great point.

Eternally speaking, salvation was decided and accomplished for all that are saved prior to a single atom being spoken into existence. Temporally speaking, salvation begins with conversion, proceeds throughout the person's life span, and is concluded in the transformative work of resurrection and none of it is caused by sinful human flesh. It is all the work of God and God is almighty, never-failing, and always accomplishes that which He sets out to do. That is how we can and do know we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved while others are left to guess.

No!

That is nonsense. If God knows you or I have been saved, then we have been saved whether we know it or not. Being mortal does NOT change that. Do not [conflate] ontology with epistemology.

Sorry, you lost me on that last one. I was simply saying that God knows the end and the beginning but we don't.