Why do Calvinists debate?

[Mercy_Shown]

The point is that you have tried to do exactly that by ignoring the word "impossible." Was my post not sufficiently clear?

Apparently.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

The point is that you have tried to do exactly that by ignoring the word "impossible." Was my post not sufficiently clear?

Read it again.

People do not renew themselves, and the most definitely do not renew themselves by the Holy Spirit by which they have been enlightened, having tasted the heavenly gift, and partaken of the Holy Spirit. You are arguing two sides of the fence, assuming God saves them but once saved they cannot save themselves when they did not save themselves in the first place and if it was God who saved them in the first place, and nothing is impossible for God then the words, "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance," do NOT mean God cannot renew them and they do NOT mean their salvation was irrevocably lost never to be attained again.

Because nothing is impossible for God.

Look up the verse that speak of renewal (restoration, making new or fresh again). Do any of them refer to renewing oneself in one's own flesh? Here is a sample:

Romans 12:1-2
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

2 Corinthians 4:13-18
But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed; therefore, I spoke," we also believe; therefore, we also speak, knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God. Therefore, we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Ephesians 4:17-24
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Colossians 3:5-11
Therefore, consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

Titus 3:1-7
Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Or do you think Hebrews 6:6 should be read in exclusion of all those texts, that it means something entirely different than all the rest of the epistolary's discussion of renewal, and that the renewal that? If the Hebrews 6 passage is saying it is impossible for a human to renew himself then that is not indication salvation is irrevocably lost because God can save and renew anyone. If, in contrast, it is God and God alone who renews a person soteriologically then your use of Hebrews 6 cannot be made to say salvation can be lost.

Quite a bit of writing but I don't think it changes what the author of Hebrews meant with His plain words.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Is the Gospel a Call? Surely it is...

It is Good News and it does include the call to repentance for all men everywhere.

When it comes to the Parable of the Sower, how do you interpret it? "As Is", is a good answer, but I mean how do you interpret it's Spiritual Meaning? The difference can have a lot to do with showing God Calls people through the Gospel, he never intends to Save...

Jesus was laying out the condition of hearers of His words. The Pharisees and the self-righteous the hard path. They could point to the fact that they had no weeds, thorns, or briers but God's word found no purchase in their hearts. The rocky soil were those who were looking for the next great thing and thus were enticed by the gospel until the next new thing came along. The weedy ground were those who had little faith and needed to be in control. They soon lost faith because God was not as temporal as they had expected.

When we understand the omnipotence of God and His ability to see men's hearts as a farmer sees his soil we realize that it was not whether God did not intend to save people but rather his foreknowledge of who would submit to Him and receive his seed. In this way, Jesus indeed came to save the saveable but he gives equally to all. He makes it rain in the just and the unjust. And pours his spirit upon all men. Those who resist him are damned because they did not believe in Jesus. But they had the sane opportunity and the same power afforded them as the saints did.

The good soil, by the way, was sinners who new they were helpless and mired in sin.

A Calvinist will tell you that God only intends to Save the Good Soil. If this is true, doesn't the Gospel Seed, Call Soils God doesn't mean to Save?

It is not that He does not mean to save them. It is that they will refuse to be saved. They resist God even though they are given every blessing that the good soil has.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Right...

But that doesn't Rule out Grace preceding Faith...

I'll read your other Post in a minute...

Praise God that Grace comes first. God always makes the first move.

 

[Ladodgers6]

God's calling and wooing is a slightly different subject to my questions about people thinking they are choosing God because God somehow offers them salvation and they then go ahead and accept it, not to mention a person saying a prayer and then being saved. We can grant God is calling people as a given. The question is what are we to make of these people that claim they made some choice in the matter of their own salvation and it appears as though their testimony is true based on the fact that they are actually saved? Does God work with different people in different ways?

It's has always been through the Proclamation of the Gospel calling. From Genesis through to Revelation.

 

[Arial]

Of course, it was. God brings us to life so that we may either consent or resist. If a man cannot consent and still be saved, then how is it he is guilty of consenting to sin?

There seems to be a disconnect in your thinking between being brought to life and life---who and what that life is. Between being brought to life and being saved. What does consent have to do with it? Did you consent to your natural birth? Was consent even remotely an issue with you as to whether you would be born or not? Then why all of a sudden is an issue in being born again? Jesus tells us it has nothing to do with the will of the flesh or the will of man.

 

[Mr GLee]

Because their Choice Justifies them, though it doesn't Elect them. God responding to someone is established in Prayer; but Prayer is not why God Elects. Calvinists are supposed to be Sola Fidests; Martin Luther fought for Justification through Faith Alone. As Calvinists, we're supposed to stay on the See-Saw of Grace and Faith. Every time we kick up the See-Saw at Grace, it can't stay that way; Faith Kicks up to keep the See-Saw rocking. Whether we think Faith is a Gift or not, it kicks the See-Saw up, or your not Saved through Faith; and are Hyper...

I would offer.

Faith, is the work of God's labor of love, the power of Christ unto salvation. The faith or power is not of those dead in there trespass and sin without God in this present world .God must do the first works ."Let there be". . .then the new creation "it was very good " The law of his faith or understanding Him , the justifier

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.. . . . (the unseen works of God )

Romans 1:15-17King James Version So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.1 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.. . . .

Not of our own understanding (faith) . Mankind had no faith or belief that could please.

He give us little of His power of faith and calls us of "little faith". Peter said believers must decrease so he can increase.

Five times in the new he calls Christians O ye of little faith. He is the storeroom the barnfull.

Matthew 14:31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
I
Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

 

[Mr GLee]

There seems to be a disconnect in your thinking between being brought to life and life---who and what that life is. Between being brought to life and being saved. What does consent have to do with it? Did you consent to your natural birth? Was consent even remotely an issue with you as to whether you would be born or not? Then why all of a sudden is an issue in being born again? Jesus tells us it has nothing to do with the will of the flesh or the will of man.

Amen .

It would seems in order to do with the work of the Holy Spirit teaching us not to look to the temporal things seen as a sign to wonder after rather than believing prophecy as it is written.

Nicodemus a Pharisee (faithless unbeliever) of those who made Jesus into a circus Seal, Do some magic work a miracle then when we see with our own eyes then we will believe .

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Jesus the prophet was given words from the Father and rebuked Nicodemus . And commanded him to marvel not but rather believe prophecy alone and not the oral traditions of dying mankind (Pharisees with Sadducees) .

Parables like above teach us how to walk by faith the unseen things of God.

Satan the king of lying sign and wonders is still working in the hearts of dying mankind . No sign were given to wonder after . They are used as false prophecy, oral traditions of dying mankind .

 

[Arial]

Amen .

It would seems in order to do with the work of the Holy Spirit teaching us not to look to the temporal things seen as a sign to wonder after rather than believing prophecy as it is written.

Nicodemus a Pharisee (faithless unbeliever) of those who made Jesus into a circus Seal, Do some magic work a miracle then when we see with our own eyes then we will believe .

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Jesus the prophet was given words from the Father and rebuked Nicodemus . And commanded him to marvel not but rather believe prophecy alone and not the oral traditions of dying mankind (Pharisees with Sadducees) .

Parables like above teach us how to walk by faith the unseen things of God.

Satan the king of lying sign and wonders is still working in the hearts of dying mankind . No sign were given to wonder after . They are used as false prophecy, oral traditions of dying mankind .

The Holy Spirit brings about a new birth. Our first birth, the natural birth, was in Adam. The new birth is in Christ, undoing what Adam did to the human race---made them sinners like him. Sin and death have no power any longer in those born in Christ. The flesh is still subject to death, but it can no more hold us than it could hold Jesus. We died with Him and will rose again with Him, and now have His righteousness counted as ours. And one day, our flesh too will be resurrected as that of our Savior's was.

 

[Arial]

When we understand the omnipotence of God and His ability to see men's hearts as a farmer sees his soil we realize that it was not whether God did not intend to save people but rather his foreknowledge of who would submit to Him and receive his seed. In this way, Jesus indeed came to save the saveable but he gives equally to all. He makes it rain in the just and the unjust. And pours his spirit upon all men. Those who resist him are damned because they did not believe in Jesus. But they had the sane opportunity and the same power afforded them as the saints did.

You have given nothing to support that but your opinion of who God is. How can you say this and ignore not take into account what Jesus says following the giving of the parable in Matt 13:1-13?


10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

 

[Arial]

It is not that He does not mean to save them. It is that they will refuse to be saved. They resist God even though they are given every blessing that the good soil has.

There is nothing in that parable that even suggests such a thing. It is the soils that were different.

 

[Arial]

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:10

I don't see a single thing in that passage that that mentions choosing to believe. It does however say that with the heart one believes, so I remind you what I have said before. It is by effectual grace that God changes a heart.

 

[David1701]

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Romans 10:10

That's not what I asked for...

I asked you to show where the Bible says that faith is the result of sinful man's choice. This verse (Rom. 10:10) says absolutely nothing about sinful man's choice (it doesn't mention choice at all!); in fact, it points in the direction of sinful man being unable to have faith in Christ, when taken in conjunction with other Scriptures about the heart.

Ez. 36:26,27 (WEB)
26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.

A stony heart, by definition, does not trust in Jesus, which is why the new heart (a.k.a. being born again) is necessary for someone to see and enter the Kingdom of God (which we know is through faith in Jesus), as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

That's not what I asked for...

I asked you to show where the Bible says that faith is the result of sinful man's choice. This verse (Rom. 10:10) says absolutely nothing about sinful man's choice (it doesn't mention choice at all!); in fact, it points in the direction of sinful man being unable to have faith in Christ, when taken in conjunction with other Scriptures about the heart.

Yes, it does it is a person's choice to believe with their heart that they are justified.

Ez. 36:26,27 (WEB)
26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them.

I will use your reasoning here and say that Romans 10:10 says nothing about a "new heart". Furthermore, the verses you quoted were regarding the restoration of Isreal which appears to refer at least in part to the birth and growth of Christianity. Which called all men to repentance everywhere. This is where one either submits to God or resists God which leads to rejection. Verses 16 through 18 are a great display of God's call and man's choices.

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I don't see a single thing in that passage that that mentions choosing to believe. It does however say that with the heart one believes, so I remind you what I have said before. It is by effectual grace that God changes a heart.

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

The if-then conditional statement strongly suggests a choice. Since I cannot see any indication of force being applied or manipulation being exercised, I conclude that it is a choice. As Jesus said in John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

There is nothing in that parable that even suggests such a thing. It is the soils that were different.

That makes no difference in whether or not they were manipulated. Are you suggesting that God made the soils differently? Each one was given the same seed, the same rain, etc. The Parable was not about God creating bad soil and then withholding his irresistible grace from it. It was about the condition of different hearts that influenced the choices that they made.

Will hell be made up of individuals who are put there not by their own informed choice?

 

[Arial]

Therefore all men should be saved since that is the will of God.

You take three scriptures, isolate them completely from any context surrounding them, and from all other scriptures that are a contradiction to your assertion and interpretation, and make a doctrine out of it. Surely you know this is not valid.

We have 1 Cor 2:14 and its surrounding text that states unequivocally that the natural man cannot believe The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

We have the scriptures where Jesus says that no one can come to the Father unless the Father grants him to do so. That the Father gives these specific ones to Jesus.

We have Eph 2 that tells us we are dead, dead, dead, in tresspasses and sins unless and until He quickens us to spiritual life. (No who is quickened to spiritual life refuses to believe the good news. They hear it, understand it, believe it. They are not partially quickened to life.) These same passages say it is God who does it by grace. If that grace only makes it possible to believe and then reject what they believe (oxymoron) then His grace was of no effect.

Absolutely no where in the Bible do we ever see God not accomplishing what He intends to accomplish. No were in the Bible do we see that God's will is ever thwarted. No where do we see it indicated that God intended and willed that all people be saved. No where in the steady progression of God's purpose of redemption do we see Him ever say He is going to give sufficient grace for all men to accept or reject Him, give sinful man a choice as to whether they want to be in Adam or Christ. And yet when the A'ist comes to those three scriptures they become absolute proof to them of what they had already believed, and the God they had made in the image they preferred. And how? By looking at certain words that have multiple uses as only having one use and meaning. And by removing it from within its full context and not bothering to question whether it was the truth or not. Not bothering to set it alongside the contradiction they have made.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

You have given nothing to support that but your opinion of who God is. How can you say this and ignore not take into account what Jesus says following the giving of the parable in Matt 13:1-13?


10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

This is the point. They are given the very same thing the disciples were given. They could see, they could hear but their self-righteousness kept them blind and deaf to the meanings. They chose their pride over submitting to God

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

Who closed their eyes? They did. They chose to close their eyes, they did not want God's healing just as they loved darkness more than light. It was by their choice. Jesus gave his disciples the explanation of the parables. They did not understand them on their own. But he did not explain his parable to the scribes and Pharisees and I think it is clear as to why.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

There seems to be a disconnect in your thinking between being brought to life and life---who and what that life is. Between being brought to life and being saved. What does consent have to do with it? Did you consent to your natural birth?

No, but I consent to my continuing life after I was born.

Was consent even remotely an issue with you as to whether you would be born or not? Then why all of a sudden is an issue in being born again? Jesus tells us it has nothing to do with the will of the flesh or the will of man.

Consent becomes possible because of our rebirth.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

You take three scriptures, isolate them completely from any context surrounding them, and from all other scriptures that are a contradiction to your assertion and interpretation, and make a doctrine out of it. Surely you know this is not valid.

I disagree with your assertion.

We have 1 Cor 2:14 and its surrounding text that states unequivocally that the natural man cannot believe The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

We have the scriptures where Jesus says that no one can come to the Father unless the Father grants him to do so. That the Father gives these specific ones to Jesus.

We have Eph 2 that tells us we are dead, dead, dead, in tresspasses and sins unless and until He quickens us to spiritual life. (No who is quickened to spiritual life refuses to believe the good news. They hear it, understand it, believe it.

Really? Who said so? Certainly, you must consider Hebrews 6:4-6

They are not partially quickened to life.) These same passages say it is God who does it by grace. If that grace only makes it possible to believe and then reject what they believe (oxymoron) then His grace was of no effect.

Why do you equate quickening to complete salvation?

Absolutely no where in the Bible do we ever see God not accomplishing what He intends to accomplish.

Of course not. He intends that everyone should have a free choice to be saved or lost. He does not intend that hell should be filled with suffering souls He created who never had a chance.

No were in the Bible do we see that God's will is ever thwarted. No where do we see it indicated that God intended and willed that all people be saved.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

No where in the steady progression of God's purpose of redemption do we see Him ever say He is going to give sufficient grace for all men to accept or reject Him, give sinful man a choice as to whether they want to be in Adam or Christ.

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Jesus is That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1:9) If everyman is enlightened by Christ why is not every man saved>

And yet when the A'ist comes to those three scriptures they become absolute proof to them of what they had already believed, and the God they had made in the image they preferred. And how? By looking at certain words that have multiple uses as only having one use and meaning. And by removing it from within its full context and not bothering to question whether it was the truth or not. Not bothering to set it alongside the contradiction they have made.

I think the opposite is also possible. It becomes convenient for some people to apply multiple meanings to words and texts to get things to fit their beliefs.