Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[sawdust]

Prove all things mean in and outside of the church with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Proving doesn't mean sitting down in prayer waiting for the Lord to drop "dewdrops of confirmation" into your head that whatever you think is right. There is a very limited amount one can understand simply by reading scripture especially if they limit themselves to one translation.

 

[GeneZ]

You know, I can tell my child, "Don't touch the stove, it's hot, you'll get burned and it'll hurt." But a five-year-old doesn't understand "hot" "burn" "hurt". And you can't be around forever to shield them from such harm. The best way to learn is: experience. So you let them touch the hot stove, it burns, there's pain and they cry as a result. They have learned their lessons. Unfortunately, the scars are there, as a reminder.

Interesting point you just made.

There is a Scripture that tells us that is how God works when need be.

My pastor was one of the few pastors who studied able to teach in depth from the Greek and Hebrew. Without his teaching I would have never guessed what I am about to share here.

​

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to say ​

“No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly ​

lives in this present age." Titus 2:11-12​

My wonderful pastor showed us that the Greek word normally translated "teaches" is not found. Its not for what's found typically for our typical classroom teacher/ student setting.

In this case? God's grace "teaches" differently. It does not simply teach us what to avoid like a teacher will in a classroom with students.
Instead.... God patiently waits, and lets us stick our finger in a candle's flame that we were warned against.....
Being told... "Do not let your curiosity get the best of you! Do not stick your finger in the candle's flame."

Then .. God waits.

Now after we are burned?

Then we have learned (by God's grace) to "say "No" to what God says is no good for us.

In that way? According to the Greek of Titus 2:11-12?
God's grace teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness!

I adored that teaching when I learned it.
Was so glad to learn that God let me, and was with me, when I did things I now know are dead wrong to do.

grace and peace ............

 

[Mr GLee]

Hard to understand what you mean per your comment.

God did not reveal Himself to mankind on the first day when mankind was created the 6th day.

There was no death, nor temporal corruption because there was no sun nor moon nor stars until the fourth day and mankind had not fallen yet to bring sin into the world and into creation and thus death by sin in the world and in creation.

When Jesus was incarnated as the Son of Man and born into the world, He is the light that shown in that darkness that was present in the world.

God is Light He revealed himself as the light that lit up the whole world until the third day. . . when he saw pride in the heart of lucifer. Then he created the two temporal corruption timekeepers winding down to the wake up call on the last day under the Sun. Then God who is light will be the ones source there will be no darkness as night forever more .

Revelation 21: 22-25 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there

Again in the next x chapter to emphasize the law of faith

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Mr GLee]

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age." Titus 2:11-12
My wonderful pastor showed us that the Greek word normally translated "teaches" is not found. Its not for what's found typically for our typical classroom teacher/ student setting.

In this case? God's grace "teaches" differently. It does not simply teach us what to avoid like a teacher will in a classroom with students.
Instead.... God patiently waits, and lets us stick our finger in a candle's flame that we were warned against.....
Being told... "Do not let your curiosity get the best of you! Do not stick your finger in the candle's flame."

I would ask if it's not the living word of God that teaches us. . then who does the teaching? Your pastor who know how to use the Greek seemingly to draw men away from the one good teaching master God not seen.?

The milk of the word teaches us God is gracious The meat of the word teaches us it is God working in us to both hear his will and empower the Son of man do to it to the good pleasure of the one good teaching master The key the disciples knew not of when they question the Son of man what did you eat..?????

John 4:33-35King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (His will our daily bread)

The key is both to will and to do (the meat )

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Some murmur what about me where is my credit for the work?

He answers

Philippians 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[ChristB4us]

That was your assumption.

No, it was not. Your "go to" was not the Lord to confirm the word but man and his education.

If one is not filled with the Spirit, one cannot comprehend spiritual matters.

We are always filled with the Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not going anywhere when that is the testimony that God has saved us.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

That is why saved believers need not hunger nor thirst any more to be filled after coming to & believing in Jesus Christ.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

It is by not sowing to the flesh is how one remains filled with all the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

What does a believer do when they are sowing to the flesh?

Call on Jesus Christ to help them to stop and do good instead, even by casting down wicked thoughts and imaginations to think on good things, thereby no longer grieving the Holy Spirit in us.

It is by the Spirit, we mortify the deeds of the body for why we are always filled with the Holy Spirit. Since we are in this vile body of death is why God has this always Spirit-filled so there is no need to seek a continual filling of the Spirit, but recognize we are always Spirit-filled to be able to mortify the deeds of the body with the help of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to follow Him.

The only reason believers are hungering and thirsting for more of God is because they are committing spiritual adultery in seeking that phenomenon as if it is a continual filling or a continual receiving of the Holy Spirit when they are actually suffering a thief to break thru.

The real indwelling Holy Spirit is in you pointing you to go to the Bridegroom, the Lord Jesus Christ, whereas the spirits of the antichrist would not point you to the Son, but to themselves to seduce believers in seeking after their visitations to receive by a sensational sign in the flesh.

 

[ChristB4us]

God is Light He revealed himself as the light that lit up the whole world until the third day. . . when he saw pride in the heart of lucifer. Then he created the two temporal corruption timekeepers winding down to the wake up call on the last day under the Sun.

The earth did not exist for what void and without form means in Genesis 1:2 on that first day. What was created the first day was "the beginning" as time began by that first day with evening and morning that first day by that light that God has spoken forth.

it took the second & third day to create the earth in finishing it. The 2nd day, earth became a water planet with an upper atmosphere. The third day, the earth was completed in creation by the laying down the foundation of the land teeming with plant life bearing seeds & fruits thereof.

The fourth day, was when the rest of the universe that was created.

There was no death nor corruption nor need of God's judgment before creation week, because it was day one when God began to create the heavens and the earth & everything was finished on the 6th day by resting on the 7th day per Genesis 2:1-3.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Then God who is light will be the ones source there will be no darkness as night forever more .

Revelation 21: 22-25 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there

Again in the next x chapter to emphasize the law of faith

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

I agree that God will be our light in the future as the light of the sun and the moon would pale in comparison to His light, but Your comment about the past is unclear and thus confusing for why I cannot agree with it as it is written.

 

[ChristB4us]

Proving doesn't mean sitting down in prayer waiting for the Lord to drop "dewdrops of confirmation" into your head that whatever you think is right.

Wisdom from the Lord is not by doing whatever you think is right.

There is a very limited amount one can understand simply by reading scripture especially if they limit themselves to one translation.

You either trust the Lord Jesus Christ to be your personal Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to understand the truth in His words or you do not and thereby relying on human teachers moreso which will likely subject you to error as you would be taking him at face value.

2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

And what guarantee one has in order to find the truth in His words by using multiple translations? Is it ironic that all Bible versions testifies in John 16:13 that the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself, on His own initiative, or on His own authority, BUT speak only what He hears and yet because of errant translations in most modern bibles, Romans 8:26-27 implies the Holy Spirit can utter wordless groans or sighs from Himself thereby allowing tongue for private users ignore John 16:13 as if it did not really mean that and just go with vain & profane babbling instead.

Whereas the KJV and a few modern bibles kept the truth in His words in romans 8:26-27 by aligning with John 16:13 in that the Holy spirit cannot even utter His groanings out loud when making intercessions for us which goes beyond tongues for private users but to all believers.

Really think God is partial in the body of believers to have the Holy Spirit pray out loud for some but not all believers? That is why tongues are not for private use and it is not the real God's gifts of tongues because it is the pagan's supernatural tongue as found in the world like in Roman idolatry & the occult with Isaiah 8:19 for confirmation.

The History of Tongues: Pagan Practices

Anyway, using other translations does not necessarily guarantee understanding scripture since wisdom still has to come from the Lord.

 

[Josheb]

Sir.... You start your own thread... You can even cop the Title with a slight modification to differentiate.

I could. I could also post a reasonable, rational, polite, respectful, cogent and coherent alternative case fullof well-rendered scripture right here in this op because this op fails and the thread warrants a better alternative.

And, then, you show us how its to be done.

I've shown how it's supposed to be done and NOT done here.

Just to let you know why I refused your original request.. I would have gladly clarified with more, but your approach became unnecessarily too obtrusive to continue with you.

Luke 6:45.

Take responsibility for your own posts and do not blame and scapegoat others. That last sentence is the problem to be solved: There is not a single reason why anyone need ever mention another poster. EVER. Your position existed before this forum ever existed. This op was posted before any of the participants ever should up to reply. The position held and the case upon which it was built ALL existed before anyone here said anything.

It should have been posted that way.

...then, you show us how its to be done.

lol! I did.

It is not up to you to try and force everyone to your will and create off topic posts about being off topic if it is not your thread. The OP can do that if he desires. If it is not bothering him, why should it bother you? If you want to post on topic, then do so, and engage with those who are on topic.

Red herring. I'm not trying to "force" anyone to do anything. Every is free to do whatever they like and I stated that. I left it up to everyone here to examine the evidence and choose. Not only is everyone free to do whatever they like, that includes me. I am free to continue with everyone else and drag this thread further off topic to prove the point .

The choice was free to all. The choice is still free to all. Every single post from Posts 474 and 475 is based upon a choice, the choice to either get back on topic or not. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I'm simply observing the facts in evidence. Post 476 is not on topic. Post 477 is, though, and only one poster has replied op-relevantly. Maybe the thread will get back on topic. Posts 478 and 479 are not op-relevant. Posts 479, 480, and the rest continue the problem to be solved: off-topic over-spiritualized self-aggrandizement devaluing others. This post simply observes these facts off-topically. I've joined the digression.

The only difference is some don't like my doing it, but others doing so is tolerated.

I once read someone say they were reluctant to stop others from doing that which they themselves do.






@GeneZ has attempted to provide an explanation in answer to the question asked: "Why did God plan for the fall of man?" Many have weighed in on that answer and the case made to support that answer but I do not read a single poster wholly agreeing with either the conclusion or the means by which that position was reached. As far as I can tell the op has modest support from one person. I and others have offered alternatives and I don't find any of us garnering support, either. None of us have been able to persuade others.

And I suspect that is why the thread has gotten off-topic.

We'll see how @RR144 's posts are related and how they are handled.

 

[Josheb]

God didn't plan for the Fall,

AMEN!

In other words, there is a presuppositional error in the question asked. There can be no answer to "Why did God plan for the fall?" if God did not plan for the fall! But the fall happened! How could God not plan for something that happened. Aside from the fact that protest is a post hoc fallacy, and aside from the fact that dissent makes God dependent upon sin, it's quite scriptural, reasonable, and rational God's plan and purpose for salvation wasn't bothered at all by the fall and everything proceed as planned regardless.

and yes, he knew it would happen, as Jesus stated in Luke 14:28 about building a house: "For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it." Of course counting the cost is more than just finances. When building, you look at every facet, make sure there aren't any flaws, and if there are flaws, you make sure to fix it.

When God created man, He could have created them as robots, to do His will without question, instead he created them with free will. And here's where "counting the cost" comes in. He knew that creating free will, whether it be angelic or human that the possibility of abusing free will was there. How would he fix that?

Amen!

You know, I can tell my child, "Don't touch the stove, it's hot, you'll get burned and it'll hurt." But a five-year-old doesn't understand "hot" "burn" "hurt". And you can't be around forever to shield them from such harm. The best way to learn is: experience. So you let them touch the hot stove, it burns, there's pain and they cry as a result. The4y have learned their lessons. Unfortunately, the scars are there, as a reminder.

God created Adam with free will, he chose to disobey and as a result "through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12) Adam lived 930 years (Genesis 5:3) he lived to see the errors of his ways.

For the past 7,000 years, the world has known sin, the only way we can understand it. This is the age old question: Why Does God Permit Evil? God has allowed man to try their best in governing themselves, and they have failed, only bringing more sorrow and death. But His Kingdom will fix it all.

Good stuff, but 1) be careful about anthropomorphizing God with analogies to sinful parents, and 2) it suggests God's plan was to let humans fail and become corrupt, thereby, 3) making God and His plan and purpose dependent upon sin.

In other words, this doesn't solve the problem highlight very early on in the thread: Whatever the answer is to this question, it cannot make The Law Maker dependent upon lawlessness, the Righteous One dependent upon or subject to sin for His plan to bear fruit. That is the fundamental error within the question asked in the title of this op; it presupposes the necessity of a plan specifically for sin as a contingency.

 

[GeneZ]

No, it was not. Your "go to" was not the Lord to confirm the word but man and his education.

Why are you so anti-education?

You would not have your archaic KJV without men getting first an education. It came from scholars at British universities.

We are always filled with the Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not going anywhere when that is the testimony that God has saved us.

A little education would show you what you said was dead wrong. We are indwelt by the Spirit. Not automatically "filled."
For we can grieve and quench the Spirit with our own stupidity about God's Word. He still remains inside of us (indwelling)
but is not happy with our way of thinking.

Being filled with the Spirit happens when the Spirit approves of our life, so He can be one with you. Only when we have all known sins confessed, are we filled with the Spirit. Only then.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, ​

and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.​

​

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. ​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and ​

purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:7-9​

Being indwelt by the Spirit is for all who believe.
Even for losers in the spiritual life who remain chronically self opinionated.

Only those who succeed will not remain dull to their own arrogance and pride.
They will make it through the cosmic/carnal jungle leading to spiritual maturity in Christ.

grace and peace ...........................

 

[GeneZ]

I could. I could also post a reasonable, rational, polite, respectful, cogent and coherent alternative case fullof well-rendered scripture right here in this op because this op fails and the thread warrants a better alternative.

Who made those rules? Is it being objective in a real world situation?

 

[Josheb]

Who made those rules? Is it being objective in a real world situation?

Let me show you how this is done.



























.

 

[Josheb]

Who made those rules? Is it being objective in a real world situation?

Got anything op-relevant to post?

 

[ChristB4us]

Why are you so anti-education?

I am not against education as I am against not proving everything with the Lord, whether it be from the educational system, or the church.

 

[GeneZ]

I am not against education as I am against not proving everything with the Lord, whether it be from the educational system, or the church.

Throw away the Bible.

You got the Lord.

What do you need the Bible for?

We do not need translators.

We got the Lord.

We do not even need this forum.

We got the Lord.

(like the way you sound?)

 

[GeneZ]

Got anything op-relevant to post?

Relevant to others seeking to grow.. Yes.

Keep in mind. I authored this OP.

Start your own....

 

[Josheb]

Start your own....

When you get elected sheriff of the forum then you can tell others what to do. Until then, you're off-topic in your own op, have been asked if there is anything more op-relevant to post, said yes, and refused to post it. Go back to Posts 5 and 7.

Those are the facts in evidence.

 

[GeneZ]

When you get elected sheriff of the forum then you can tell others what to do.

Like wise.... Judge not lest ye be judged.

When you get elected sheriff of the forum then you can tell others what to do.

You do not realize that is exactly what you do??????

Realize it!

 

[ChristB4us]

Throw away the Bible.

You got the Lord.

What do you need the Bible for?

We do not need translators.

We got the Lord.

We do not even need this forum.

We got the Lord.

(like the way you sound?)

Again, you seem to be deflecting from my point as if I am saying throw away the Bible whereas you are saying go to educated man to teach you the Bible but I am saying go to the Lord to confirm what they teach you in that Bible.

 

[Mod46]

When you get elected sheriff of the forum then you can tell others what to do. Until then, you're off-topic in your own op, have been asked if there is anything more op-relevant to post, said yes, and refused to post it. Go back to Posts 5 and 7.

Those are the facts in evidence.

When you get elected sheriff you can------.
Knock it off.