Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[ChristB4us]

Not simply "his education."
Rather... able by the grace of God to become so educated.

Any book worm can remember facts.
Only truly Spirit filled teachers can transform God's knowledge into wisdom.

Jesus warned that only a few would qualify.
Many will not. Many will be found on the broad and wide road that leads to their own self destruction.

By grace such teachers are to be found and cherished by those so blessed by God.

And yet you are still to prove all things by Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd since He is with you always and the "good" teachers are not.

A cult has been defined as that which teaches 9 truths and slips in one lie, but what if the tainted education is responsible for leading such "educated" teachers astray by one lie? And since believers are finding themselves correcting others in Christian forums, why is it inconceivable that you would have to prove all things that comes from your teachers as well?

What better way to steer a church astray by going after the pastors and teachers that trust their educational facility to teach them the truth like believers do towards the Catholic Church? the devil does not have to fool each and every one of us, but just what believers are assuming that is what Christ wants us to do in looking to the church or our educated teachers and pastors from so called respectable universities and colleges?

If your favorite teacher or pastor tells you to kill transgenders to show love for your neighbor & country to protect them from this evil oppression, will you then wake up & discern that he needs help by His words for why God is not teaching him to do that or will you believe God is leading him to say that for you to do because everything else he says so far is true as far as you are concern?

 

[ChristB4us]

At the end of the third day, (three denotes the end of a matter throughout the Bible) he found pride in the heart of Lucifer. At that moment God who is light lit the whole world . . .the glory of the lord departed. . corruption began.

That is not what was written and you should not add to His words.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

The fourth day he set the two-corruption time indicators winding down to the last day under the sun.

@CrowCross

The problem with your application is that from the fourth day on to the 6th day, after each day of creation, God said it was good just as it was on the first day, skipped the second day for calling it good because He was not done creating the earth until the third day.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.... 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

There was no break nor corruption from the beginning of creation on that first day to the 6th day for why God rested on the 7th day from creating the heavens and the earth beginning on that first day.

 

[Mr GLee]

The problem with your application is that from the fourth day on to the 6th day, after each day of creation, God said it was good just as it was on the first day, skipped the second day for calling it good because He was not done creating the earth until the third day.

Yes was good under the letter of the law . do or die

I think he was done in supplying what was needed to sustain their dying bodies under the law (the letter that kills) do not or you will surely die and not raise to new life .

Necessary food for the bodies not to be confused with the meat of the word the food the disciples knew not of mentioned in Job .Jesus said his food is to do the will of God and finfish it Adam and Eve denied it and did the wil of a stranger Lucifer

Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

 

[GeneZ]

Sometimes people do not want to hear the truth that each of us are to go to Jesus Christ in trusting Him to be our personal Good Shepherd in proving all things by Him.

Only you can discern if you are one of them or not, by asking yourself, what are you trusting Jesus Christ for as your Good Shepherd?

Good bye...Chris....

Heard enough. (hurt enough)

Bye!

 

[sawdust]

Lastly, I still don't read anyone solving the problem of dependence. If God made a plan specifically for the fall of humanity, then that plan is necessarily and inescapably dependent on that fall. By extension, so too is God

You're the only one who thinks it makes God dependent. I explained how the plan was for creation, not God. Scripture doesn't say "I have a plan for Myself". As far as I am concerned you are creating a problem that simply isn't there and then demanding everyone solve your imaginary problem.

I'd prefer op-relevant conversation.

If you don't like the way the room is decorated you're free to hang out somewhere else.

 

[sawdust]

Do you need to go back to your post where you had referenced a favorite pastor and his education on the ancient language that you prefer to rely on or do you suddenly recall that now?

Please go ahead. Show me the post where I said I rely solely on my pastor and take no heed to the Spirit or never test his teaching against the scriptures or what other teachers teach.

 

[ChristB4us]

Please go ahead. Show me the post where I said I rely solely on my pastor and take no heed to the Spirit or never test his teaching against the scriptures or what other teachers teach.

Okay. Going back I was wrong as it was not you that had posted this in #428;

@GeneZ Jeremiah 4:23-28: Jeremiah prophesized the coming destruction to the land of the degenerate, rebellious Jews.

Jeremiah did so by quoting Genesis 1:2. Why Genesis 1:2? Genesis 1:2 spoke of an utter destruction!

I learned from a professor of ancient languages something very important to understand about the passage.
It alluded to a prehistoric man expressed in a generic way. "Humanoid" might suffice.

You had replied to my post to him which threw me off in recollection per your post #432.

Here is your post:

And what makes you think God has to give us an explanation of everything He does? There's no mention in Genesis 1 of the angels yet does anyone think they were not created before us?

He has shown you how "tohu and bohu" is the result of judgement, not creation. Go and think on these things.

We agree, God is not a liar but nor is He obliged to inform you of all His works. You would do well to remember many truths were hidden and quite often because people were too stubborn to believe what was right under their noses.

So basically, you agreed with GeneZ's professor of ancient languages, but that is man having shown GeneZ & you and not the Lord.

Your insistence that man has shown what that means goes to show reliance on teachers and not confirming anything from the Lord.

I bet that professor applied the meaning of Jermiah 4:23 in the context of that passage to Genesis 1:2 when he should not have done that since in the context of Genesis 1:2, is WAY DIFFERENT than what was the setting and what was going on in Jeremiah 4:23.

The earth did not exist until day 3 when it was completed. Noticed how God did not say it was good on day 2? Because the earth was a water planet with an upper atmosphere on day 2 and He was not done creating the earth, until Day 3 when He said it was good.

So I was wrong in citing your reliance on that "teacher" but you did join in agreeing with the source.

As for taking it to the Lord for confirmation in His words, you never did it for Genesis 1:2 for you would have seen the error of that professor as I did, thanks to the Lord.

 

[sawdust]

So basically, you agreed with GeneZ's professor of ancient languages, but that is man having shown GeneZ & you and not the Lord.

Huh? I was referring to the Lord through the prophet Jeremiah showed you that "tohu and bohu" is the result of judgement, even blind Freddy can see the connection. You simply assumed the "He" I began my sentence with was my pastor. Why is that? Why are you so against the fact that God has appointed teachers in the body of Christ for their edification? I can think of many reasons, none of which are good.

Jer.4:23-26
I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the Lord,
By His fierce anger.

 

[sawdust]

Your insistence that man has shown what that means goes to show reliance on teachers and not confirming anything from the Lord.

All it goes to show is you make assumptions without understanding.

 

[GeneZ]

All it goes to show is you make assumptions without understanding.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood.

But, against spiritual powers of darkness that fear and hate for God's Word to be expounded and explained.

Unfortunately believers who neglect sound doctrine can become pawns in this battle.
Pawns who in their carnality will work against the truth. Believers can become pawns.

Just like Satan used Peter and the Lord rebuked Peter for it.. Even calling Peter, "Satan."

Such resistance is something that is used adeptly by darkness in its desire to suppress truth.
To prevent it from reaching out and finding a home in some positive believer's heart to settle into.

Yes.. God planned for the Fall.

For what reason? Several reasons. And, there is one important one that we share in.

God needed a teaching tool for teaching the angels why God judged Satan in the extreme for only having a thought.

That thought was what?

​

You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; ​

I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. ​

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." Isaiah 14:13-14​

How could God show Satan, and even God's own elect angels? Why it was just and righteous to judge Satan severely
for such a thought?

What did God know about that thought's ultimate intent? Something that at that time God had no means to explain to Satan,
nor, all the angels?

To supply the answer. God needed to invent a new teaching tool. Something special that He could illustrate needed truth with.
To educate the angels with. Something, that over time, they could come to deeply identify with?


God provided that teaching tool.
It was the fall of man!


.............



............

 

[Josheb]

You're the only one who thinks it makes God dependent.

Apparently.

Do you see anyone taking up the matter with me and proving it is not the case? I ask because from my perspective the posts show an abject failure to even consider the premise, an abject silence addressing the matter and an abject failure proving an alternative. Confronted with this premise the posters supporting the necessity of sin and God needing to have a plan for it have trned away and said nothing.

God needed to have a plan.

The self-existing, almighty, omni-attributed sovereign Creator of all things needed to have a plan.

That premise is all that should have been necesary for EVERY reader of this op to say, "What? Hold on a minute. God needs nothing."

An no one but me has bothered to ask.

I explained how the plan was for creation, not God. Scripture doesn't say "I have a plan for Myself".

Great. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted, but I'm happy for you. Great non sequitur.

As far as I am concerned you are creating a problem that simply isn't there

I understand. Your view does not change the facts in evidence. This op has argued for the necessity of a plan for sin and ignored and ignored any other possibility, willfully attacking any poster suggesting any other alternative without giving any thought to that alternative. Others have debated the specifics of the op but done so accepting a premise that should be questioned: the necessity of a plan for a necessity of sin. God MUST have had one because without one it would be impossible for sin to have been addressed. from this one presupposition of need several other problems ensue.

It is really very simple: Does God need anything? Everyone's answer should be an immediate, uniform, and unequivocal "NO!"

Does God need sin to exist? Again, the answer should be an immediate, uniform, and unequivocal, "No!"

Does God need to have a plan specifically or something He doesn't need? Again, the answer should be an immediate, uniform, and unequivocal, "No!"

But sin did happen, Josh.

Yes, and that is a post hoc argument (prima facie fallacious). What we're discussing is a pre-existing plan, not one God formed after the occurrence of sin.​

So as far as I am concerned, your lack of concern is part of the problem to be solved.

...and then demanding everyone solve your imaginary problem.

I haven't demanded anything from anyone and explicitly stated everyone was free to respond any way they so choose AND just as free to ignore what I have posted. So please do not mischaracterize my posts or my motives, especially no in contradiction to what has been posted.

If you don't like the way the room is decorated you're free to hang out somewhere else.

Hypocrisy. If you do not like what I post then you are free to hang out somewhere else.

I want the conversation. I want the posters to consider both the op AND what everyone brings to bear on it. I want the posters to engage these premises, their alternatives, the cases formed to support every view asserted, and measure them by scripture and reason, and hopefully reach a commonly held conclusion.

It is those who seek to exclude others that are the enemy of every discussion board, not just this one. False invitations to go elsewhere have no place in free discourse.




The fact is, either what I (or others) bring to bear on the op can be addressed or it can't. It either will be addressed or it won't. Silence is an option, and it always means there was either no interest or no ability. Those with no interest are unknown. Those with no ability become known when efforts fail. None of this is very complicated.

You think my concern regarding God's dependency unwarranted. Great. You've made your position known and assuming you know how to stick with your own words I will not expect anything more from you. Blessings, accordingly.

 

[ChristB4us]

Huh? I was referring to the Lord through the prophet Jeremiah showed you that "tohu and bohu" is the result of judgement, even blind Freddy can see the connection. You simply assumed the "He" I began my sentence with was my pastor. Why is that? Why are you so against the fact that God has appointed teachers in the body of Christ for their edification? I can think of many reasons, none of which are good.

Jer.4:23-26
I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the Lord,
By His fierce anger.

Blind Freddy can not see that when referring to Genesis 1:2 as if the meaning in Jeremiah 4:23 has to be the same for Genesis 1:2.

Let me ask you this: what does the Lord tell you about why He had never said it was "good" on the second day of creation?

AND why would God say it was good the very first day of creation if the meaning of Jeremiah 4:23 was to be applied to Genesis 1:2? All He did that day was speak forth the light for by that light was day and the darkness, night, as there was evening and morning that first day.

Why in His word, would He say it was good if the earth was devastated, seemingly flooded, with an upper atmosphere that did not allow the lights from the heavens to shine through "if" you believe the earth was there but a wasteland and the heavens were there also but hidden?

 

[ChristB4us]

All it goes to show is you make assumptions without understanding.

Well, the conversation could have been all avoided if you all had simply stated that "oh yeah.. we do that too. Of course we confirm everything taught to us with the Lord."

But it just seems you all were dismissing what I had asked you all to do by insisting relying on teachers that God has given us as if they are infallible without saying so.

I do not expect you all to take me at my word either, but confirm everything with Him.

 

[sawdust]

God needed to have a plan.

Yes for creation not for Himself. Not hard to understand.

 

[sawdust]

Blind Freddy can not see that when referring to Genesis 1:2 as if the meaning in Jeremiah 4:23 has to be the same for Genesis 1:2.

Let me ask you this: what does the Lord tell you about why He had never said it was "good" on the second day of creation?

AND why would God say it was good the very first day of creation if the meaning of Jeremiah 4:23 was to be applied to Genesis 1:2? All He did that day was speak forth the light for by that light was day and the darkness, night, as there was evening and morning that first day.

Why in His word, would He say it was good if the earth was devastated, seemingly flooded, with an upper atmosphere that did not allow the lights from the heavens to shine through "if" you believe the earth was there but a wasteland and the heavens were there also but hidden?

Scripture interprets scripture. It's a basic rule of interpretation. The earth ended up tohu and bohu in Jeremiah because of the Lord's fierce anger. To turn around and say it was that way in Genesis because that is the way the Lord creates things is to ignore a basic rule of interpretation.

He gave a command to the light on the first day. There are no "creative" words used. It is a command to that which already exists. God is light. He brought forth that light "in the beginning" when he created the heavens and earth in Gen.1:1

On the first day He called the light good, not the earth. The earth is not called good until the third day when He has finished restoring it to the place where it could sustain life which He then proceeded to command to bring forth vegetation. Again note, no creative words used. The seeds were already present in the ground waiting to come forth.

 

[sawdust]

Well, the conversation could have been all avoided if you all had simply stated that "oh yeah.. we do that too. Of course we confirm everything taught to us with the Lord."

But it just seems you all were dismissing what I had asked you all to do by insisting relying on teachers that God has given us as if they are infallible without saying so.

I do not expect you all to take me at my word either, but confirm everything with Him.

No-one said that teachers, even those truly appointed by God, are infallible that was your bias being projected onto us. All we were arguing is the need for teachers in the body of Christ because God appointed it to be that way. That they need to be tested had been stated early in the conversation.

This conversation could have been avoided if you didn't make assumptions about what people mean especially when they don't even allude to what you think they mean.

 

[sawdust]

Hypocrisy. If you do not like what I post then you are free to hang out somewhere else.

Your the one doing all the mumbling and grumbling because posters aren't sticking to the topic. If you don't like it just go somewhere else and the rest of us won't have to put up with your whining.

 

[sawdust]

Does God need sin to exist? Again, the answer should be an immediate, uniform, and unequivocal, "No!"

So you think God allows things into His creation having no purpose?

He let's any old thing in and just wings it does He?

 

[GeneZ]

Huh? I was referring to the Lord through the prophet Jeremiah showed you that "tohu and bohu" is the result of judgement, even blind Freddy can see the connection. You simply assumed the "He" I began my sentence with was my pastor. Why is that? Why are you so against the fact that God has appointed teachers in the body of Christ for their edification? I can think of many reasons, none of which are good.

Jer.4:23-26
I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the Lord,
By His fierce anger.

Some use tactics in a desire to distract away by making a non-issue into something they claim is a point of contention. Its to put another on the defensive in a desire to distract away from what God would want to be made known. To be known for the benefit of those who love His Word.

As for the distractors?

They never teach in an edifying way.
Nothing that build up the faith, but tears down.
It is a common trait.
Yet, they claim to be better teachers.

They want to position themselves as to replace the Teacher
Like in the past when some angel wanted to make himself as the Most High.

Historically its a repetitive attitude to be found manifested amongst some who are living within fallen mankind.....

An attitude which God now has angels and believers observing. Angels are studying the evil actions of those so inclined amongst fallen mankind. Without the fall of man such a thing would not be made known to be seen.

God planned for the Fall so angels could learn why God must separate and isolate forever, those who would always be stirring up strife and discord. There would be no absolute peace in eternity if God allowed for them to roam freely amongst those whom believe. Now is the time in history for God revealing to all why those who take pleasure in evil absolutely must be judged and perpetually quarantined.

God's desired result by planning and allowing for the Fall?

The Lake of Fire will be there for benefitting those who believe in God's Son. How will it benefit them?

For the torments will constantly render those who desire to do evil to be rendered impotent, worthless, and silenced.

The Lake of Fire is not so much for God's benefit. But God intended it for the benefit for those whom He loves.
For what can harm God? Nothing.
The Lake of Fire God has for our peace. Peace that will last forever by having those who love evil to be isolated, contained, and rendered eternally under God's IGNORE function.

In the mean while? Since man is fallen? And, he must choose which way to take? There will be foolish men and women who follow the pattern of Satan and his angels modus operandi. God teaches all by their example why God has to condemn Lucifer and his fallen angels..
Taught from the beginning of Satan's rebellion the naïve angels why God was so harsh with the fallen ones.

Because of the examples presented in God's classroom for angels? By means of the actions of cruel fallen men exhibited amongst God's people? The angels observed, and came to realize that God's way He judged their once beloved Lucifer and his angels, that it was the righteous thing for God to do! Without such examples of fallen men, angels would remain perplexed in regards to why God condemned Satan for "a thought" Satan had towards the Lord. "I will make myself like the Most High."

Without the fall of man? How could the overt desired effects of evil be made known? To be understood? Evil thoughts must become overt in action, and the consequences for such action witnessed to.

Because God must disallow disorder in His kingdom. And Himself and angels can not be murdered? The angels could have never know what murder is and how evil deceit harms another. Not unless, God provided a teaching tool for the angels to relate to and identify with to gain understanding of what God always knew, but they could not.

The actions of evil fallen men being put on open display before Satan and all the angels, is a perfect means for God to make it known and understood by angels that God was vindicated in condemning all who refuse to believe in God!

That is one reason why God planned for the Fall of man!

For the very thoughts and actions of fallen men have become a "perfect teaching tool" for God, to show by man's example what evil desires when evil gets its way. For? By allowing fallen men to do wrong (for a season) acts to vindicate God's judgment before all angels, for condemning the thoughts of Satan and his angels.
God's angels who needed to learn to understand why God judged Satan and his angels as He had done!

grace and peace ..............

 

[GeneZ]

No-one said that teachers, even those truly appointed by God, are infallible that was your bias being projected onto us. All we were arguing is the need for teachers in the body of Christ because God appointed it to be that way. That they need to be tested had been stated early in the conversation.

This conversation could have been avoided if you didn't make assumptions about what people mean especially when they don't even allude to what you think they mean.

When I started with my pastor's teachings it forced me to acquire a small personal library, and to visit campus libraries of two Bible colleges, not to mention perusing as many shelves I found at bookstores in my travels.

What struck me hard was the following.

How so many reference books were in agreement with what I was taught. The trouble I had prior, was that the reference books were so dry and boring in themselves. Not able to keep my attention. But when challenged to prove all things? They became alive and exciting.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

1 Thessalonians 5:21​

That lasted me for about five years until I finally learned I could trust the pastor I decided to learn from.
Not to mention, that happened after graduating three years of Bible college, having graduated with honors.

grace and peace ......