Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[GeneZ]

When you can make cogent arguments that actually carry weight, get back to me. You have a very limited and human idea of love, and human love is deeply flawed and misguided. When a Christian sins is it because they have an active hate towards God, or do they still love Him.

King David hate God when he took Bathsheba?

Or? David actually hated himself when he pursued her?

 

[GeneZ]

Romans 8:28 is not about receiving benefits. It is about God working for our good. It is for our good that we are corrected. It is for our good that we reap what we sow. It is for a child's good that they are corrected and disciplined. I am done trying to hope that you can get outside the box of what you think good means in that passage. I have said it half a dozen times, and in different ways, hoping you could grasp it.

We have Scripture to compare with other Scripture, to use when other passages will help to define what one passage is covering.

 

[turbomaniac]

The Son of God before being human knew that man will fall but He haven't planned it. It was man who wanted to become God and fell. But God had ready the plan to invite man again with Him. And that plan was to become human with flesh and bones in order to invite man again with Him. God had also other plans if man wanted to stay with Him. It is in our hands to be again with The Son of God.

 

[sawdust]

I didn't say he was and I also said I would cover all of that in a separate thread. I am still working on it.

It has nothing to do with Charles Finney. We are talking about believers. You're trying to make an argument for the will being a slave to the flesh when that no longer applies to the believer for they have been set free. So start a thread if you wish but it's a waste of time for this argument.

When you can make cogent arguments that actually carry weight, get back to me. You have a very limited and human idea of love, and human love is deeply flawed and misguided.

Strewth! You have a nerve. You're the one who wants to tell us that we love God because He has shed abroad in our hearts His love and we can't help but love Him back but then when it's shown that not all believers actually do that, then I'm the one who doesn't know what they are talking about. You're the one saying God's love comes back to Him as flawed "human" love. I'm trying to point out to you that is not love. That if we want to truly love God as He loves us we have to learn to know who and what God is, not simply love Him for being good and giving us good things. Far too many Christians fall apart the moment things don't go their way. I have seen it time and time again. They panic and run around asking everyone to pray for them because they're not coping. This is someone who has not really learned to know God and have the faith needed to rest in so that they face all things with the peace that comes from God. How can you be afraid if the love of God casts out fear? These things are a wake up call to show us we don't love God as much as we think we do or that we have the depth of faith we thought we had.

Define what it means to love God?

I have defined what I mean by loving God many times in our conversation. Look in the last paragraph if you don't want to go back through the thread.

It is exactly what you are saying.

It is not, that's just your assumption. I have maintained in every thread we have discussed things, that we have/are nothing apart form the ministry of the Spirit and the grace of God. If you have not heard that then you really don't know who I am or what I believe.

If it is typical it should be no problem for you to give me an example.

Doh! LOL How about the Laodiceans? They are failing badly but according to you they love God?

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

Do you want to try and tell me the Laodiceans obeyed the teaching? Or do you want to try and tell me, like the other poster, they aren't really believers? Or maybe try some fancy juggling and say they loved God but didn't obey but that doesn't matter because they have God's love in their hearts? Do you even know what it means to love God? All questions are rhetorical.

You are talking about actions and behavior and attitudes as being love. And Paul had to tell that church a lot of things. We need instruction. We need correction. We need to be sanctified more and more. That does not mean we do not love God. Not loving God would be rejecting Him. You say one thing and then you also act like love is not love if it is not perfect love.
How does that mean they don't love God?

Love is shown in your actions, behaviour and attitude how else would you know God so loved the world if not for His attitude of "while we were yet sinners" or the love of God in Christ if not for His actions on the Cross? Too many Christians think they love God because they feel good about Him and are grateful for the salvation He has given them but they don't really know Him. God is love. You can't really love someone until you know them.

When a believer refuses correction and fails to grow up in God's love, they will never know the good that God is working. It will not benefit them in this life or the next for they will either be miserable and/or clueless here and they will lose rewards in the after.

 

[sawdust]

When a Christian sins is it because they have an active hate towards God, or do they still love Him.

It's not a question of hate. It's a question of who you love more. Who do you think they love when they sin?

 

[Arial]

It has nothing to do with Charles Finney. We are talking about believers. You're trying to make an argument for the will being a slave to the flesh when that no longer applies to the believer for they have been set free. So start a thread if you wish but it's a waste of time for this argument.


Strewth! You have a nerve. You're the one who wants to tell us that we love God because He has shed abroad in our hearts His love and we can't help but love Him back but then when it's shown that not all believers actually do that, then I'm the one who doesn't know what they are talking about. You're the one saying God's love comes back to Him as flawed "human" love. I'm trying to point out to you that is not love. That if we want to truly love God as He loves us we have to learn to know who and what God is, not simply love Him for being good and giving us good things. Far too many Christians fall apart the moment things don't go their way. I have seen it time and time again. They panic and run around asking everyone to pray for them because they're not coping. This is someone who has not really learned to know God and have the faith needed to rest in so that they face all things with the peace that comes from God. How can you be afraid if the love of God casts out fear? These things are a wake up call to show us we don't love God as much as we think we do or that we have the depth of faith we thought we had.


I have defined what I mean by loving God many times in our conversation. Look in the last paragraph if you don't want to go back through the thread.


It is not, that's just your assumption. I have maintained in every thread we have discussed things, that we have/are nothing apart form the ministry of the Spirit and the grace of God. If you have not heard that then you really don't know who I am or what I believe.


Doh! LOL How about the Laodiceans? They are failing badly but according to you they love God?

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

Do you want to try and tell me the Laodiceans obeyed the teaching? Or do you want to try and tell me, like the other poster, they aren't really believers? Or maybe try some fancy juggling and say they loved God but didn't obey but that doesn't matter because they have God's love in their hearts? Do you even know what it means to love God? All questions are rhetorical.


Love is shown in your actions, behaviour and attitude how else would you know God so loved the world if not for His attitude of "while we were yet sinners" or the love of God in Christ if not for His actions on the Cross? Too many Christians think they love God because they feel good about Him and are grateful for the salvation He has given them but they don't really know Him. God is love. You can't really love someone until you know them.

When a believer refuses correction and fails to grow up in God's love, they will never know the good that God is working. It will not benefit them in this life or the next for they will either be miserable and/or clueless here and they will lose rewards in the after.

Rather than address all that hostility point by point, and all the repetition, I will ask a couple of questions.Do you know what it means that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer. Do you know what it means that we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies?

 

[GeneZ]

Rather than address all that hostility point by point, and all the repetition, I will ask a couple of questions.Do you know what it means that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer. Do you know what it means that we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies?

Why should there be hostility?
Disagreeing when someone thinks you are wrong does not have to equate with hostility.

Do you really know what it means when it says we are seated WITH Christ in the heavenlies?

 

[Arial]

Why should there be hostility?
Disagreeing when someone thinks you are wrong does not have to equate with hostility.

Do you really know what it means when it says we are seated WITH Christ in the heavenlies?

Good question. It wasn't my hostility.

 

[GeneZ]

Good question. It wasn't my hostility.

Its our "bodies" that have been crucified with Christ.
Our soul remains intact.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved ​

me and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20​

Our soul now lives by the filling of the Spirit while knowing God's Word as we should (faith).

So, if our body has been crucified?
We must be awaiting new bodies.

And, where are our new bodies to be found?

Seated above with Christ in the heavenly places!

For, just as Eve's body was in Adam's body? Awaiting to become bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh?
So are we with Christ! For when resurrected? We shall be bone of His bones and glorious flesh of His glorious flesh!

"We are the Bride of Christ!"........ We are presently "In Him." Just as Eve was in Adam before she was revealed!​

The real 'complete' you and me are awaiting to be revealed gloriously is presently seated with Christ in heavenly places.

That truth is called "positional truth."
It is not, experiential truth.
Experiential truth, is truth that we are actively experiencing right now.

Positional truth is actively seen in God's omniscient eyes.
His omniscience is letting us know the truth that He can see as already being.
Yet, that truth must await the right time to be revealed overtly.

That is why it says we are now seated with Him in heavenly places.

For He is now in heaven as we shall be!

​

1 John 3:2​

​

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. ​

But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.​

grace and peace ..........

 

[sawdust]

Good question. It wasn't my hostility.

Wasn't mine either. You mistake passion for hostility.

You think that was angry? You would not like to see me angry.

Rather than address all that hostility point by point, and all the repetition, I will ask a couple of questions.Do you know what it means that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer. Do you know what it means that we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies?

Why can't you deal with the practical realities I keep putting before you? (ie. the Laodiceans) This is not about positional truth. Positionally we have all we need to be all we can be but that does not mean every believer will take hold of the riches we have in Christ. If the totality of Christ's inheritance automatically came to us in practice, there would be no need for an evaluation of our works before His judgement seat. We each must work out our salvation. This we do in the Spirit by means of grace through faith.

Look at Christ. What love do you see He has for the Father? Would you dare sit there and tell me "you love God"? Maybe you're content to sit where you are (wherever that may be) just like the Laodiceans and say you are rich and have all you need. Christ is our only standard by which we are to judge ourselves. I have no intention of letting anyone get in my way when running the race and I will not stop until I reach the full stature of Christ, it is for that we have been destined.

I think this is where I say ... "eat my dust!"

 

[Mr GLee]

Wasn't mine either. You mistake passion for hostility.

You think that was angry? You would not like to see me angry.


Why can't you deal with the practical realities I keep putting before you? (ie. the Laodiceans) This is not about positional truth. Positionally we have all we need to be all we can be but that does not mean every believer will take hold of the riches we have in Christ. If the totality of Christ's inheritance automatically came to us in practice, there would be no need for an evaluation of our works before His judgement seat. We each must work out our salvation. This we do in the Spirit by means of grace through faith.

Look at Christ. What love do you see He has for the Father? Would you dare sit there and tell me "you love God"? Maybe you're content to sit where you are (wherever that may be) just like the Laodiceans and say you are rich and have all you need. Christ is our only standard by which we are to judge ourselves. I have no intention of letting anyone get in my way when running the race and I will not stop until I reach the full stature of Christ, it is for that we have been destined.

I think this is where I say ... "eat my dust!"

We are already carrying out the appointment to die once. I would think no retrial or double jeapordy?.

Judgement seat of Christ was demonstrated in the garden of Gethsemane the 1st part of that three part three day and nights promised demonstration of the Father striking the Son of man, Jesus bruising his heel. . . crushing the head of the serpent as the work of two.

It was prophesied both in Genesis 3:15 as well as another witness Isaiah 53

In the garden three times he hoped for support from the other apostles, Three time denied and the father put them back to sleep a intimate work between two. Then they moved to hill the bloody demonstration to the whole world all nations having finished the demonstration to those who were trust prophecy the garden .

The bloody demonstration as a illusion that mankind did the works of the satan inspired crowd causing confusion to the unbeliever in a hope of drawing the world to the book of prophecy the gospel mystery. When finished the 3rd and last demonstration the tomb the demonstration of faith the unseen working of God then the Holy Father removed the grave clothes of the Son of man and rolled back the stone.finishing the demonstration .

The testimony God has spoke is two. . . three is a crowd.

 

[Bornfield]

Perhaps that because no one is Perfect and Holy - except for God, there is nothing and no one who is like God - he alone is capable of being Holy and Perfect

God alone, is capable of being Perfect, Holy, Pure and Righteous - even the Angels are capable of evil and are not perfect,

the law of the universe is a reality that exists - that no one except for God is perfect , God gave man a choice and mankind choses of his own free will to disregard the law of holiness

 

[ChristB4us]

God didn't plan for the Fall, and yes, he knew it would happen, as Jesus stated in Luke 14:28 about building a house: "For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it." Of course counting the cost is more than just finances. When building, you look at every facet, make sure there aren't any flaws, and if there are flaws, you make sure to fix it.

When God created man, He could have created them as robots, to do His will without question, instead he created them with free will. And here's where "counting the cost" comes in. He knew that creating free will, whether it be angelic or human that the possibility of abusing free will was there. How would he fix that?

You know, I can tell my child, "Don't touch the stove, it's hot, you'll get burned and it'll hurt." But a five-year-old doesn't understand "hot" "burn" "hurt". And you can't be around forever to shield them from such harm. The best way to learn is: experience. So you let them touch the hot stove, it burns, there's pain and they cry as a result. The4y have learned their lessons. Unfortunately, the scars are there, as a reminder.

God created Adam with free will, he chose to disobey and as a result "through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12) Adam lived 930 years (Genesis 5:3) he lived to see the errors of his ways.

For the past 7,000 years, the world has known sin, the only way we can understand it. This is the age old question: Why Does God Permit Evil? God has allowed man to try their best in governing themselves, and they have failed, only bringing more sorrow and death. But His Kingdom will fix it all.

Adam's sin was not believing the word of God, but hearkening unto the word of the woman. By that sin, death came into the world.

So salvation should be easy in that wise as well that by believing the Word of God brings eternal life.