Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[sawdust]

How about how God created everything in the beginning and then described what He did that very first day as "the beginning" in according to His word?

And how about He concluded how He created everything in that creation week for why He rested on the 7th day?

How about you stop speculating and let scripture interpret scripture?

 

[Mr GLee]

Would you mind clarifying that because the "for" creates some ambiguity. Did God plan the fall? Did God have an already-existing plan that considered the fall? Or did God have an already-existing plan for creation that was always going to happen and conclude exactly as God had already determined even when the fall occurred?

Of course, but God planning for the fall implies He and His plan were somehow dependent on that event.

I'm not sure those are the questions. I could easily make a case for the answer to either question being irrelevant.

Exactly God planned they would live forever .

They denied the plan by doing the will of a creature serpent used to represent false apostles false prophets seen rather than walking by the understanding of the unseen faithful Creator

 

[JIM]

I disagree. It is not necessary for anyone to first understand the angels preceded the creation of humans to understand the fall took place for God's purpose. That the fall serves God's purpose does not imply nor necessitate the fall took place for God's purpose.

What, precisely, was God's purpose?

 

[Josheb]

Exactly God planned they would live forever .

But I do not think the plan was for them to live forever absent Christ, the tree of life. The human experience entails lessons/learning unique to us. The cow's experience it different than our own. So too the dolphin or the bonobo (which are, reportedly, more intelligent than a cow ) experience is different. So too is that of the angels. Flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom. If that is to be read literally it means Adam and Eve in the sinless state could not inherit the kingdom.; they were always in need of transformation. Jesus said those who hear his words and believe God have been brought from death to life. Would that include being brought from mortality to immortality? That is, after all, the end result of resurrection from the grave.

 

[Josheb]

What, precisely, was God's purpose?

I have already answered that question. Read the thread.

 

[ChristB4us]

That may explain why the Hebrew (when exegeted) will be saying....

1~~In the beginning which was not a beginning {eternity past}, Elohiym/Godhead ​

created out of nothing {bara'} the heavens and the planet earth."​

Here is someone who saw the same paradox in the Hebrew wording...
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....ng-vs-in-the-beginning-different-implications

And, this one too...
https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~dberry/FTP_SITE/reprints.journals.conferences/Berry2003JBQGenesisPaper.pdf

Since everything God had created was out of nothing, then there was no heaven and earth at all in that first day when time was created by that first day as being the beginning.

 

[ChristB4us]

Could you please answer my question?


Look at Jeremiah 4:25-27, again.

I looked, and there were no people;​

every bird in the sky had flown away.​

I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;​

all its towns lay in ruins​

before the Lord, before his fierce anger.​

​

This is what the Lord says:​

​

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

Why did Jeremiah need to add that the Lord would not destroy their land completely?

Try answering, please, before asking more questions without answering. Thanks.

Because of His promise to Abraham.

So what glory does it bring God to lay waste to a supposedly pre-existing earth for the nation of Israel to learn from?

None, because there was no pre-existing earth.

 

[ChristB4us]

I was not conflating. You would have to say that Jeremiah was.

I will say by applying the words of Jeremiah in what God meant in Jermiah 4:23 as if He meant the very same thing in Genesis 1:2 is a lie.

But, Jeremiah had good reason.

For the Jews who heard Jeremiah? They knew what the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1 meant.
It was their 'native tongue."

They also knew that God in English was from the Hebrew word Elohim which is a plural word for deity as in deities or gods and yet they still maintain that God is simply a One Person God.

So no. They applied the words of Jeremiah as addressing the destruction that God has wrought by His judgment.

You do not get to apply Jeremiah 4:23 to Genesis 1:2 without citing the cause for said judgment when it was about signifying nothing was there in the beginning except water for when God spoke that light into existence to establish the beginning by that first day by its evening and morning that first day. It is by that light that the first day was created, signifying the beginning by its evening and morning that day.

It was not the light from the sun nor from the moon by night that established the first day because they were created the fourth day.

It appears to me that Biblical scholars lose themselves in translation by not defining the terms used in the message being given in Genesis.

Jeremiah needed to add for a reason ..

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

He needed to add those words because the Hebrew in Genesis 1:1, to their Hebrew thinking minds?
It indicated the earth in Genesis 1:1 was found in utter ruin!
That's why!

If Jeremiah did not add that God would not destroy completely?
It would have meant that the Jewish race and Israel would have been wiped from the face of the earth!
Those who spoke Hebrew, they knew that is what "tohu was bohu" meant.

This requires objective thinking.

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely.​

In Christ....

Objective thinking is not required for understanding His words in the scripture but wisdom from the Lord does require it. So do ask Him rather than the so called educational minds of the world to tell you what the Bible actually meant.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth......26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Are you sure you are not being influenced by Catholic teaching to look to man to tell you what the scripture means? I know you are not Catholic, but that mentality can be seen as being similar to looking to the RCC for the truth in His words rather than to Jesus Christ Himself.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Jesus Christ is to be our personal Good Shepherd as He is the head of every believer. No scripture teaches us to go to educational men to teach us, but to the Lord.

 

[ChristB4us]

How about you stop speculating and let scripture interpret scripture?

Funny how I was reading it as is with His help, while you guys were going off to commentaries and education of others for reading His words.

 

[GeneZ]

Since everything God had created was out of nothing, then there was no heaven and earth at all in that first day when time was created by that first day as being the beginning.

Heaven and earth created was *before* the first day.
God created the heavens and earth before Day One existed.

The beginning of our 'current created world' we now live in had also its own beginning.
Its beginning followed the beginning of the heavens and earth.
The planet earth is older than our current created world that rests upon it.

Once more of us can understand there was a prehistoric created world prior to our own
the more what is revealed in the Hebrew will make perfect sense. Not speculation.

grace and peace ................

 

[GeneZ]

The Scriptural understanding that there was a prehistoric world before our own
was not (as some erroneously claim) something cooked up after Darwin's theory of
evolution confronted the church.

The understanding that there had been a previous creation before our own world, was known
by Bible scholars long before Darwin had his fanny slapped while being held by his ankles.

Here is one example of what I speak...
https://custance.org/Library/WFANDV/chap1.html

We need to stop being opinionated and ignorant sounding people to unbelievers, and
for the benefit of those who truly wish to mature in knowledge and understanding.

Some take pride in how they seem to suffer for their stubborn stand while thinking God is pleased with them.
Ignorance never pleases God. No matter how much you close your mind and refuse to budge because of
some misinterpretation, God is not pleased.

In Christ ............

 

[GeneZ]

Funny how I was reading it as is with His help, while you guys were going off to commentaries and education of others for reading His words.

So its all you and God alone? Ehh?

Ironically... it was men and books who taught you to believe the KJV is the best translation.

Irony of ironies.

 

[sawdust]

Funny how I was reading it as is with His help, while you guys were going off to commentaries and education of others for reading His words.

Sure mate, God only speaks to you, never to others so they might share their wisdom.

 

[ChristB4us]

Sure mate, God only speaks to you, never to others so they might share their wisdom.

Why refer to others and take their words for it that God has spoken to them? I am not referring you to me to take me at my word but referring you to go to the Lord for His wisdom.

The point of the example is for you to seek confirmation in His words from Jesus Christ Himself through the Holy Spirit in you.

You guys have been relying on others and their education of the ancient language for understanding His words. That is not what scriptures told you to do.

I was not expecting you to take me at my word when I was pointing you to go to Jesus for confirmation & wisdom in understanding His words.

 

[GeneZ]

Why refer to others and take their words for it that God has spoken to them? I am not referring you to me to take me at my word but referring you to go to the Lord for His wisdom.

The point of the example is for you to seek confirmation in His words from Jesus Christ Himself through the Holy Spirit in you.

You guys have been relying on others and their education of the ancient language for understanding His words. That is not what scriptures told you to do.

I was not expecting you to take me at my word when I was pointing you to go to Jesus for confirmation & wisdom in understanding His words.

You self taught?

 

[sawdust]

Why refer to others and take their words for it that God has spoken to them? I am not referring you to me to take me at my word but referring you to go to the Lord for His wisdom.

The point of the example is for you to seek confirmation in His words from Jesus Christ Himself through the Holy Spirit in you.

You guys have been relying on others and their education of the ancient language for understanding His words. That is not what scriptures told you to do.

I was not expecting you to take me at my word when I was pointing you to go to Jesus for confirmation & wisdom in understanding His words.

Because God, in HIS wisdom appointed teachers. Anyone who thinks they can pick up a Bible and simply read it to understand what it all means without reference to culture, history or language is a chump. What you are saying is no different to what the Latter Day Saints say. God may as well be a "Wendy and sprinkle fairy dust on us all and we can all fly away to heaven".

Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

 

[GeneZ]

Because God, in HIS wisdom appointed teachers. Anyone who thinks they can pick up a Bible and simply read it to understand what it all means without reference to culture, history or language is a chump. What you are saying is no different to what the Latter Day Saints say. God may as well be a "Wendy and sprinkle fairy dust on us all and we can all fly away to heaven".

Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

Some people end up being a one-man cult.

 

[Mr GLee]

Since everything God had created was out of nothing, then there was no heaven and earth at all in that first day when time was created by that first day as being the beginning.

The first day is the day he revealed himself to mankind. God is light it revealed the darkness . the temporal corruption timekeepers (Sun and Moon) leading to the last day under the Sun. Time is running out .

 

[Josheb]

Why refer to others and take their words for it that God has spoken to them?

Why take yours?

Why refer to ChristB4us and take ChristB4us' words for it that God has spoken to them?
Why refer to Josheb and take Josh's words for it that God has spoken to them?
Why refer to GeneZ and take GeneZ's words for it that God has spoken to them?
Why refer to sawdust and take sawdust's words for it that God has spoken to them?

Do you see the problem??

 

[ChristB4us]

You self taught?

Jesus taught me through the Holy Spirit in me and He can do the same for you when you apply faith in Him to do this, as well as hoping in Him to help you trust Him in being your personal Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to follow Him during the trials & storms in your life.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.....

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.