Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[GeneZ]

Again, you seem to be deflecting from my point as if I am saying throw away the Bible whereas you are saying go to educated man to teach you the Bible but I am saying go to the Lord to confirm what they teach you in that Bible.

I went to the Lord..
and He showed me he gave me pastor-teachers to teach me.

Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, ​

to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be edified. Eph 4:11-12​

Why is that news to you?

You seem to have a spirit guiding you. Like a medium is in tune to spirits.

Someone needs to tell you that. For the Holy Spirit will not nullify what God's Word says to us.
You spirit has done that.

Now?

There are many poorly trained pastors out there who would drive me to suicide if they were my only hope.
That does not nullify God's Word.

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know ​

that we who teach will be judged more strictly.​

James 3:1 tells us that only a few should ever be teachers.
Yet? We find too many today.

Why is that?

2 Timothy 4:3 tells us why.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."​

You have not found a good pastor. One you would find yourself able to do much better with than being one for yourself.
Instead? When you become your own pastor? You simply become another poor teacher like found in the mob spoken of in 2 Timothy 4:3.

If enough gullible people agreed with you here you may just decide to start your own little church, like the kind 2 Timothy 4:3 warns against.

​

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."​

KJV Only people are notorious for being ignorant types who think they are wiser than others.

 

[GeneZ]

When you get elected sheriff of the forum then you can tell others what to do.

I do not need to be elected.
Since you are there already?...

You can simply "deputize" me.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Before our world was created on the face of this earth.
Before anyone was born of Adam and the Woman?
Even before Adam and the woman existed?

God already planned for the Fall of Man.
Of course God is omniscient and knew man would fall.

That covers it nicely. Any subsequent "OPINIONS", or speculation would be useless.

Next question???

 

[sawdust]

No, it was not. Your "go to" was not the Lord to confirm the word but man and his education.

How you laid out what I do and how I approach the word was your assumption. Don't tell me me what I know and you don't.

 

[sawdust]

God didn't plan for the Fall, and yes, he knew it would happen, as Jesus stated in Luke 14:28 about building a house: "For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it." Of course counting the cost is more than just finances. When building, you look at every facet, make sure there aren't any flaws, and if there are flaws, you make sure to fix it.

Huh? If He knew it would happen and He counted the cost before making the plan, how is this not planning for the Fall? If the Fall was in His costing, He must have made plans for it otherwise he isn't even following His own advice.

 

[GeneZ]

How you laid out what I do and how I approach the word was your assumption. Don't tell me me what I know and you don't.

Apparently he has only been exposed to dumb teachers.

And, they do exist.

They exist in forums as well.

 

[GeneZ]

Huh? If He knew it would happen and He counted the cost before making the plan, how is this not planning for the Fall? If the Fall was in His costing, He must have made plans for it otherwise he isn't even following His own advice.

I think that person meant that God did not plan to make the fall happen.

Yet? Knowing it would happen?
God planned for the fall.

Something tells me AI will have a lot of obstacles to weed out before it can be truly ready, if ever...

 

[Josheb]

I do not need to be elected.
Since you are there already?...

You can simply "deputize" me.

I'd prefer op-relevant conversation.


Do you believe you have posted a reasonable, rational, cogent, and coherent case of well-rendered scripture to prove this op correct?

If yes, then why do you think no one is persuaded?

If not, then given the input of the op-relevant replies existing in these 26 pages, what changes might be in order?

Lastly, I still don't read anyone solving the problem of dependence. If God made a plan specifically for the fall of humanity, then that plan is necessarily and inescapably dependent on that fall. By extension, so too is God. I haven't read every single post in all 26 pages of posts so if I missed then perhaps I could be directed to the post that addresses that matter and if the problem of dependence has not been addressed then perhaps you would offer that solution now.

 

[ChristB4us]

I went to the Lord..
and He showed me he gave me pastor-teachers to teach me.

Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, ​

to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be edified. Eph 4:11-12​

Why is that news to you?

Anyone Christ use would tell followers to do the same thing; trust Jesus Christ to be your personal Good Shepherd in proving all things by Him.

You seem to have a spirit guiding you. Like a medium is in tune to spirits.

Someone needs to tell you that. For the Holy Spirit will not nullify what God's Word says to us.
You spirit has done that.

You seem to be nullifying what the scripture says about proving everything by Him and to ask the Lord for wisdom in understanding and seeing the truth in His words but you seem to be glossing over it as if they do not exist. So what spirit is guiding you to do that?

Now?

There are many poorly trained pastors out there who would drive me to suicide if they were my only hope.
That does not nullify God's Word.

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know ​

that we who teach will be judged more strictly.​

James 3:1 tells us that only a few should ever be teachers.
Yet? We find too many today.

Why is that?

2 Timothy 4:3 tells us why.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."​

You have not found a good pastor.

Did you not go to a teacher to tell you what Genesis creation account mean without going to Jesus in prayer to confirm or discern it as not true in what that teacher presented?

One you would find yourself able to do much better with than being one for yourself.
Instead? When you become your own pastor? You simply become another poor teacher like found in the mob spoken of in 2 Timothy 4:3.

I believe I was identifying Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd. Not me.

If enough gullible people agreed with you here you may just decide to start your own little church, like the kind 2 Timothy 4:3 warns against.

​

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."​

KJV Only people are notorious for being ignorant types who think they are wiser than others.

If I am point believers to go to Jesus to be their "personal" Good Shepherd, how is that pointing them to me?

 

[ChristB4us]

How you laid out what I do and how I approach the word was your assumption. Don't tell me me what I know and you don't.

Do you need to go back to your post where you had referenced a favorite pastor and his education on the ancient language that you prefer to rely on or do you suddenly recall that now?

 

[GeneZ]

I'd prefer op-relevant conversation.


Do you believe you have posted a reasonable, rational, cogent, and coherent case of well-rendered scripture to prove this op correct?

If yes, then why is no one persuaded?

If not, then given the input of the op-relevant replies existing in these 26 pages, what changes might be in order?

Lastly, I still don't read anyone solving the problem of dependence. If God made a plan specifically for the fall of humanity, then that plan is necessarily and inescapably dependent on that fall. By extension, so too is God. I haven't read every single post in all 26 pages of posts so if I missed then perhaps I could be directed to the post that addresses that matter and if the problem of dependence has not been addressed then perhaps you would offer that solution now.

I know I might get in trouble for this. Just the same.
Apparently no one here is willing to tell you something about yourself which is needed.

You are the most prissy, critical, censoring, and annoying person I have ever come across in any forum before.
If it were still mandatory to keep you off Ignore?
I would reluctantly avoid this place. And, was about to, until someone snipped off your wings.

Now that you are no longer able to exercise 'diplomatic immunity,' and can be placed on Ignore?
I feel free to stay, and deal with you when I see it as warranted.

Here's the big irony. ..

Your very attitude and presence always ends up becoming OFF TOPIC about others being off topic.

If I were an evil secularist? One who wished to destroy the coherence of a new Christian forum?
One that shows great promise of becoming more popular over time?
I would encourage you to post there.

enuf said....

 

[GeneZ]

Anyone Christ use would tell followers to do the same thing; trust Jesus Christ to be your personal Good Shepherd in proving all things by Him.

You are funny... and potentially depressing, simultaneously.

In essence?

Your brand of teacher would tell me the following.

"I am here to teach you, that I am not here to teach you."

 

[Josheb]

I'd prefer op-relevant conversation.


Do you believe you have posted a reasonable, rational, cogent, and coherent case of well-rendered scripture to prove this op correct?

If yes, then why do you think no one is persuaded?

If not, then given the input of the op-relevant replies existing in these 26 pages, what changes might be in order?

Lastly, I still don't read anyone solving the problem of dependence. If God made a plan specifically for the fall of humanity, then that plan is necessarily and inescapably dependent on that fall. By extension, so too is God. I haven't read every single post in all 26 pages of posts so if I missed then perhaps I could be directed to the post that addresses that matter and if the problem of dependence has not been addressed then perhaps you would offer that solution now.

I know I might get in trouble for this.

Yeah, me too.

Just the same. Apparently no one here is willing to tell you something about yourself which is needed. You are the most prissy, critical, censoring, and annoying person I have ever come across in any forum before. If it were still mandatory to keep you off Ignore? I would reluctantly avoid this place. And, was about to, until someone snipped off your wings.

Now that you are no longer able to exercise 'diplomatic immunity,' and can be placed on Ignore? I feel free to stay, and deal with you when I see it as warranted.

I do not see you proving anything I posted incorrect. I read a lot of contempt but no evidence of error.

Here's the big irony... Your very attitude and presence always ends up becoming OFF TOPIC about others being off topic.

LOL! Finally figured that out, did you? I might be guilty of violating 1 Peter 3:9 or Romans 12:17, but the irony suggested. The mirror was held up to show the selectivity with which folks abide, respond, and criticize. Everyone can be off-topic but Josh. Everyone can self-elevate and devalue others, but Josh. It's not irony when it's deliberate. Two entire pages of off-topic nonsense and abject refusal to discuss the op (and in this case, it is your op!) and the minute Josh says, "Hey guys! Look at the posts. Can we get back on topic?" it's Josh-contempt. I added to the irrelevancy to draw attention to it. The trolls got trolled. Worked perfectly. Matthew 7:25. I did suggest everyone examine themselves and I did make an attempt to get the conversation back on track.

If I were an evil secularist? One who wished to destroy the coherence of a new Christian forum? One that shows great promise of becoming more popular over time? I would encourage you to post there. enuf said....

LOL! More off-topic self-elevation devaluing others refusing topical discourse.


Thank you for your time.

 

[Josheb]

I'd prefer op-relevant conversation.


Do you believe you have posted a reasonable, rational, cogent, and coherent case of well-rendered scripture to prove this op correct?

If yes, then why do you think no one is persuaded?

If not, then given the input of the op-relevant replies existing in these 26 pages, what changes might be in order?

Lastly, I still don't read anyone solving the problem of dependence. If God made a plan specifically for the fall of humanity, then that plan is necessarily and inescapably dependent on that fall. By extension, so too is God. I haven't read every single post in all 26 pages of posts so if I missed then perhaps I could be directed to the post that addresses that matter and if the problem of dependence has not been addressed then perhaps you would offer that solution now.

I know I might get in trouble for this....aid....

Got anything op-relevant to post?

 

[GeneZ]

Yeah, me too.

LOL! Finally figured that out, did you? I might be guilty of violating 1 Peter 3:9 or Romans 12:17, but the irony suggested. The mirror was held up to show the selectivity with which folks abide, respond, and criticize. Everyone can be off-topic but Josh. Everyone can self-elevate and devalue others, but Josh. It's not irony when it's deliberate. Two entire pages of off-topic nonsense and abject refusal to discuss the op (and in this case, it is your op!) and the minute Josh says, "Hey guys! Look at the posts. Can we get back on topic?" it's Josh-contempt. I added to the irrelevancy to draw attention to it. The trolls got trolled. Worked perfectly. Matthew 7:25. I did suggest everyone examine themselves and I did make an attempt to get the conversation back on track.

LOL! More off-topic self-elevation devaluing others refusing topical discourse.


Thank you for your time.

Thank you Lord for clipping his wings so I can most gladly put him on Ignore!

DONE! ....... (that was satisfying)

 

[GeneZ]

Do you need to go back to your post where you had referenced a favorite pastor and his education on the ancient language that you prefer to rely on or do you suddenly recall that now?

Not simply "his education."
Rather... able by the grace of God to become so educated.

Any book worm can remember facts.
Only truly Spirit filled teachers can transform God's knowledge into wisdom.

Jesus warned that only a few would qualify.
Many will not. Many will be found on the broad and wide road that leads to their own self destruction.

By grace such teachers are to be found and cherished by those so blessed by God.

Enjoy your own subjective inward journey.

 

[GeneZ]

Now that Ignore has become enabled, and in active mode, for a major distracter and disruptor?
I wish to start over again with my OP.

(By God's grace I pray we can learn something vital about God's plan for both man and angels.)


Before our world was created on the face of this earth.
Before anyone was born of Adam and the Woman?
Even before Adam and the woman existed?

God already planned for the Fall of Man.
Of course God is omniscient and knew man would fall.
The question I have? Why God gave the green light to have man fall?

All those who make their home on the earth will worship the beast—those whose names have not been written
from the beginning of the world in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb that was slain." Revelation 13:8

There is a distinction made in Revelation 13:8, between the planet/earth.
And, the cosmos = world of mankind.

From the beginning of man's creation the Lamb was slain in preparation for the fall of man.

Now the question is?

Did God want the fall to take place?
And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

In order to understand why the fall of Adam took place (for God's purpose) we must first come to another realization.
That angels preceded the creation of man.

And, most importantly.

That before Adam and the woman were in the Garden?
Satan was already fallen. And, with his angels fallen with him.
Those angels made a choice to rebel against the authority of God over them.

Young earth creationists may not be able to follow what I have to say unless they are willing to drop their bias.

The angels were originally given dominion over what we now refer to as the prehistoric earth.
Just like Adam at his creation was given dominion over our current created world, so were the angels
over the prehistoric earth.

God had authority over the angels running the prehistoric world. Just as God had authority over Adam and the woman.

Some must wonder...

"Why should God want mankind to fall?"

After all.. God knew man would fall before creating him.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written
in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8, tells us God already had plans to redeem man before man was created.

This may ruffle some feathers of some.
For others it may cause a sense of relief.

Relief to realize that there is a good reason reason for the mess we are stuck in at present.
Those with willingness to hear me out will understand a reason why it all makes sense.

grace and peace ................

 

[Josheb]

Before our world was created on the face of this earth.
Before anyone was born of Adam and the Woman?
Even before Adam and the woman existed?

God already planned for the Fall of Man.

Prove it.

Of course God is omniscient and knew man would fall.

False cause fallacy. Just because God is omniscient and knew man would fall does not mean He planned for the fall of man. He could have known it would happen and had absolutely no need whatsoever for a plan for the fall.

The question I have? Why God gave the green light to have man fall?

The premise upon which this question is asked has yet to justified.

All those who make their home on the earth will worship the beast—those whose names have not been written
from the beginning of the world in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb that was slain." Revelation 13:8

There is a distinction made in Revelation 13:8, between the planet/earth.
And, the cosmos = world of mankind.

From the beginning of man's creation the Lamb was slain in preparation for the fall of man.

Meaningless since the Revelation 13:8 text is taken out of context. Revelation 13:8 was said in an already fallen world about already fallen creatures. It has nothing to do with what existed prior to the fall of man.

Now the question is?

Did God want the fall to take place?
And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

Neither question has yet been justified because it has not yet been shown God's omniscient knowledge humanity would fall requried a plan for it.

In order to understand why the fall of Adam took place (for God's purpose) we must first come to another realization. That angels preceded the creation of man.

No, the realization we must first come to is proof God's omniscient knowledge of man's fall required Him to have a plan for it. The rest is just obfuscating and irrelevant red herring.



No answer to this question can make God dependent on sin's existence. Nothing has changed since Post #1. The entire argument results in God and His plan dependent on sin. The Law Maker, dependent upon lawlessness, the Righteous One dependent on unrighteousness, the Ever Faithful One dependent on faithlessness. There has to be a way to address the fall of humanity (and the fall of angels) in a way that does not make God dependent. Twenty-six pages of posts and that problem has not been solved in this op.

 

[Mr GLee]

The fourth day, was when the rest of the universe that was created.

There was no death nor corruption nor need of God's judgment before creation week, because it was day one when God began to create the heavens and the earth & everything was finished on the 6th day by resting on the 7th day per Genesis 2:1-3.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made

At the end of the third day, (three denotes the end of a matter throughout the Bible) he found pride in the heart of Lucifer. At that moment God who is light lit the whole world . . .the glory of the lord departed. . corruption began.

The fourth day he set the two-corruption time indicators winding down to the last day under the sun.

 

[ChristB4us]

You are funny... and potentially depressing, simultaneously.

In essence?

Your brand of teacher would tell me the following.

"I am here to teach you, that I am not here to teach you."

Sometimes people do not want to hear the truth that each of us are to go to Jesus Christ in trusting Him to be our personal Good Shepherd in proving all things by Him.

Only you can discern if you are one of them or not, by asking yourself, what are you trusting Jesus Christ for as your Good Shepherd?