Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[GeneZ]

Before our world was created on the face of this earth.
Before anyone was born of Adam and the Woman?
Even before Adam and the woman existed?

God already planned for the Fall of Man.
Of course God is omniscient and knew man would fall.
The question I have God gave the green light to have man fall?

All those who make their home on the earth will worship the beast—those whose names have not been written ​

from the beginning of the world in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb that was slain." Revelation 13:8​

There is a distinction made in Revelation 13:8 between the planet/earth. And, cosmos = world of mankind.

From the beginning of man's creation the Lamb was slain in preparation for the fall of man.

Now the question is?

Did God want the fall to take place?
And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

In order to understand why the fall of Adam took place for God's purpose, we must first come to another realization.
That angels preceded the creation of man.

And, most importantly.

That before Adam and the woman were in the Garden?
Satan was already fallen. And, with his angels with him who had made a choice to rebel against the authority of God over them.

Young earth creationists will not be able to follow what I have to say unless they are willing to drop their bias.

The angels were originally given dominion over what we now refer to as the prehistoric earth.
Just like Adam at his creation was given dominion over our current created world, so were the angels over the prehistoric earth.

God had authority over the angels running the prehistoric world. Just as God had authority over Adam and the woman.

Some must wonder...
"Why should God want mankind to fall?"

After all.. He knew man would fall before creating him.

Revelation 13:8, tells us God already had plans to redeem man before man was created.

This may ruffle some feathers of some.

For others it will cause a sense of relief.
Relief to realize that the reason for the mess we are stuck in at present ?
Will all makes sense.

grace and peace ................

 

[Josheb]

God already planned for the Fall of Man.

Would you mind clarifying that because the "for" creates some ambiguity. Did God plan the fall? Did God have an already-existing plan that considered the fall? Or did God have an already-existing plan for creation that was always going to happen and conclude exactly as God had already determined even when the fall occurred?

Of course God is omniscient and knew man would fall.

Of course, but God planning for the fall implies He and His plan were somehow dependent on that event.

Now the question is?

Did God want the fall to take place?
And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

I'm not sure those are the questions. I could easily make a case for the answer to either question being irrelevant.

 

[Josheb]

In order to understand why the fall of Adam took place for God's purpose, we must first come to another realization. That angels preceded the creation of man.

I disagree. It is not necessary for anyone to first understand the angels preceded the creation of humans to understand the fall took place for God's purpose. That the fall serves God's purpose does not imply nor necessitate the fall took place for God's purpose.

 

[Josheb]

The angels were originally given dominion over what we now refer to as the prehistoric earth.

Got scripture for that?

 

[Josheb]

Some must wonder...
"Why should God want mankind to fall?"

"Some" might, but not me. I do not think God wanted mankind to fall. Neither do I think the fall of mankind was as big a deal to God and His alread-existing plan and "some" make it.

Jesus is not a contingency plan.

 

[GeneZ]

@GeneZ,

Please keep the posts about the posts and not the posters. If my questions can be answered, then do so. If not, then say so. The same goes for the op-relevant points broached. Address them or don't, but please keep the posts about the posts and not the posters.

[edit by mod]

I wish to keep the post about the post.

[edit by mod]

 

[GeneZ]

Then you know better than to make this discussion about you OR me (or any poster). I could be the most knowledgeable person in the entire history of humanity and my questions still be valid, veracious, and warrant op-relevant answers. I could, alternatively, be the person most ignorant on this topic who has ever lived, and these comments and inquiries would still be valid, veracious, and warrant topical responses.

If you want to find out then discuss the op. Answer the questions asked where you can; be forthcoming with any inquiry to which the answer is unknown and do likewise with the comments: address them where possible and be forthcoming of any inability to do so. But most importantly: Please keep the posts about the posts and not the posters.

Fair enough....

 

[GeneZ]

Would you mind clarifying that because the "for" creates some ambiguity. Did God plan the fall? Did God have an already-existing plan that considered the fall? Or did God have an already-existing plan for creation that was always going to happen and conclude exactly as God had already determined even when the fall occurred?

I said... God already planned for the Fall of Man.

Then you said.... Did God plan the fall?

Yes.

You also said... Did God have an already-existing plan that considered the fall?

Not to consider. God knew the fall was going to happen.


..........

 

[Josheb]

I said... God already planned for the Fall of Man.

Then you said.... Did God plan the fall?

Yes.

You also said... Did God have an already-existing plan that considered the fall?

Not to consider. God knew the fall was going to happen...........

Perhaps I am not making myself clear.

The statements, "God planned the fall" and "God planned for the fall" are two entirely different statements. So too are "God knew the fall would occur," and "God planned the fall." "God planned the fall" implies causality. If that is not your intent then it is incumbent upon you to explain how God plan the fall without being causal in any way since His plane pre-existed creation. The statement, "God planned for the fall," implies one of two conditions: either God made a special part of His plan specifically to address what was in some way different from or not part of the original plan, a contingency if you will, or God's plan is dependent upon the fall and thereby God is dependent upon the fal in order for His plan to complete.

Not that I think you should or need to bow to the majority, but very few Christians (personally or doctrinally) believe God caused sin.

God knowing something would occur does not mean He planned it. It simply means He is knowledgeable of all that happens, whether He caused it or not. Do you believe God made Adam disobey Him?

 

[Josheb]

@GeneZ ,

Have you considered the option whereby God has a plan that covers everything, and it covers everything (a priori) so much that the fall is inconsequential to the plan and its completion?

In other words,

• God has a plan for creation.
• The fall occurs.
• The plan is not affected by the occurrence of the fall in any way and the plan proceeds as it always would have anyway, but now with the existence of the fall as one of the many conditions occurring during the plan's unfolding in history as God designed it to do from the beginning.
• The plan concludes and in the process of concluding its work the fall is addressed - not because the plan had a special component added to it to cover the contingency a fall, but because the plan covered anything and everything correlated to its purpose (the fall included)?

Otherwise, the necessity of sin is going to have to be explained, not just its causes and history (angelic and otherwise).

 

[Ladodgers6]

Before our world was created on the face of this earth.
Before anyone was born of Adam and the Woman?
Even before Adam and the woman existed?

God already planned for the Fall of Man.
Of course God is omniscient and knew man would fall.
The question I have God gave the green light to have man fall?

All those who make their home on the earth will worship the beast—those whose names have not been written ​

from the beginning of the world in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb that was slain." Revelation 13:8​

There is a distinction made in Revelation 13:8 between the planet/earth. And, cosmos = world of mankind.

From the beginning of man's creation the Lamb was slain in preparation for the fall of man.

Now the question is?

Did God want the fall to take place?
And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

In order to understand why the fall of Adam took place for God's purpose, we must first come to another realization.
That angels preceded the creation of man.

And, most importantly.

That before Adam and the woman were in the Garden?
Satan was already fallen. And, with his angels with him who had made a choice to rebel against the authority of God over them.

Young earth creationists will not be able to follow what I have to say unless they are willing to drop their bias.

The angels were originally given dominion over what we now refer to as the prehistoric earth.
Just like Adam at his creation was given dominion over our current created world, so were the angels over the prehistoric earth.

God had authority over the angels running the prehistoric world. Just as God had authority over Adam and the woman.

Some must wonder...
"Why should God want mankind to fall?"

After all.. He knew man would fall before creating him.

Revelation 13:8, tells us God already had plans to redeem man before man was created.

This may ruffle some feathers of some.

For others it will cause a sense of relief.
Relief to realize that the reason for the mess we are stuck in at present ?
Will all makes sense.

grace and peace ................

In the Reformed Faith, God did not cause the Fall to happen. God allowed or permitted the Fall. Without God allowing this, Adam would not have a Total Free-Will. Adam fell by his own free choice to sin and disobey God. I suggest that you research a bit more.​

 

[Josheb]

In the Reformed Faith, God did not cause the Fall to happen. God allowed or permitted the Fall. Without God allowing this, Adam would not have a Total Free-Will. Adam fell by his own free choice to sin and disobey God. I suggest that you research a bit more.​

Among those who are not Reformed, the appeal to Reformed theology could be seen as nothing more than doctrinal ideology.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Among those who are not Reformed, the appeal to Reformed theology could be seen as nothing more than doctrinal ideology.

Sure, but this is the Reformed position, which is also biblical teaching, that God is not the author of sin.

 

[GeneZ]

In the Reformed Faith, God did not cause the Fall to happen. God allowed or permitted the Fall. Without God allowing this, Adam would not have a Total Free-Will. Adam fell by his own free choice to sin and disobey God. I suggest that you research a bit more.​

Now it looks like you may have changed the intent my words. Not sure.

I never said God caused the fall in the sense that God forced it to happen.
I said He planned for it. He wanted it to happen. But I did not say He caused it in the sense I just mentioned.

Much like with Pharaoh. God planned for it. God wanted it to happen. But did not force Pharaoh to be the way he was.
God simply exploited the way Pharaoh was (and wanted to be) and used it to fulfill His plan.


[edit by mod: the deleted portion of this post was off-topic]

 

[GeneZ]

@GeneZ ,

Have you considered the option whereby God has a plan that covers everything, and it covers everything (a priori) so much that the fall is inconsequential to the plan and its completion?

In other words,

• God has a plan for creation.
• The fall occurs.
• The plan is not affected by the occurrence of the fall in any way and the plan proceeds as it always would have anyway, but now with the existence of the fall as one of the many conditions occurring during the plan's unfolding in history as God designed it to do from the beginning.
• The plan concludes and in the process of concluding its work the fall is addressed - not because the plan had a special component added to it to cover the contingency a fall, but because the plan covered anything and everything correlated to its purpose (the fall included)?

Otherwise, the necessity of sin is going to have to be explained, not just its causes and history (angelic and otherwise).

We are all acting out overtly what God has always known would be.

 

[GeneZ]

Sure, but this is the Reformed position, which is also biblical teaching, that God is not the author of sin.

If God was the author of sin He would have created Adam sinful.

 

[GeneZ]

In the Reformed Faith, God did not cause the Fall to happen. God allowed or permitted the Fall. Without God allowing this, Adam would not have a Total Free-Will. Adam fell by his own free choice to sin and disobey God. I suggest that you research a bit more.​

When the Lord gave Satan permission to test Job?

Did not God cause Job to suffer in doing so?

After all... knowing what would happen?
God caused it.

The Lord even instigated Satan concerning Job. (Job 1:8)
For Satan up to then was bypassing Job.


6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household
and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout
the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Job 1:6-12

The Lord instigated Job's testing by Satan. Look at verse 8!
Satan did not come before the Lord asking to take a crack at Job. Satan had been leaving Job be.


Job had to do with the prehistoric angelic conflict.
Just like the fall of Adam was, because of the prehistory of the angels.

grace and peace ....................

 

[GeneZ]

Among those who are not Reformed, the appeal to Reformed theology could be seen as nothing more than doctrinal ideology.

There are those who stick to the Reformed theology as it was formulated by some centuries ago.

Then there are those who agree with Reformed theology, but up to a point.

[edit by mod: the deleted portion is off-topic]

 

[Marilyn C]

Before our world was created on the face of this earth.
Before anyone was born of Adam and the Woman?
Even before Adam and the woman existed?

God already planned for the Fall of Man.
Of course God is omniscient and knew man would fall.
The question I have God gave the green light to have man fall?

All those who make their home on the earth will worship the beast—those whose names have not been written ​

from the beginning of the world in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb that was slain." Revelation 13:8​

There is a distinction made in Revelation 13:8 between the planet/earth. And, cosmos = world of mankind.

From the beginning of man's creation the Lamb was slain in preparation for the fall of man.

Now the question is?

Did God want the fall to take place?
And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

In order to understand why the fall of Adam took place for God's purpose, we must first come to another realization.
That angels preceded the creation of man.

And, most importantly.

That before Adam and the woman were in the Garden?
Satan was already fallen. And, with his angels with him who had made a choice to rebel against the authority of God over them.

Young earth creationists will not be able to follow what I have to say unless they are willing to drop their bias.

The angels were originally given dominion over what we now refer to as the prehistoric earth.
Just like Adam at his creation was given dominion over our current created world, so were the angels over the prehistoric earth.

God had authority over the angels running the prehistoric world. Just as God had authority over Adam and the woman.

Some must wonder...
"Why should God want mankind to fall?"

After all.. He knew man would fall before creating him.

Revelation 13:8, tells us God already had plans to redeem man before man was created.

This may ruffle some feathers of some.

For others it will cause a sense of relief.
Relief to realize that the reason for the mess we are stuck in at present ?
Will all makes sense.

grace and peace ................

Hi GeneZ,

Always good to talk about God and why He did or does things. I think a couple of my favourite scriptures will sum it all up.

`...having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth - in Him..` (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

......that in all things He may have the PREEMINENCE. ` (Col. 1: 16 - 18)

 

[Ladodgers6]

Now it looks like you may have changed the intent my words. Not sure.

I stand on Scripture and Scripture states that God is not the author of sin.

I never said God caused the fall in the sense that God forced it to happen.
I said He planned for it. He wanted it to happen. But I did not say He caused it in the sense I just mentioned.

How did God plan for it? I disagree with that God wanted it to happen. Because then it would be that God wanted Adam to sin, correct? Does God condone sin? God allowing it to happen or permitting it, is not God wanting it to happen.​

Much like with Pharaoh. God planned for it. God wanted it to happen. But did not force Pharaoh to be the way he was.
God simply exploited the way Pharaoh was (and wanted to be) and used it to fulfill His plan.

Yes, I understand your point, but Pharaoh is already fallen and in a state of sin. Where Adam before the Fall is entirely different matter, correct?


[edit by mod: the deleted content is off-topic]​