Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[Ladodgers6]

If God was the author of sin He would have created Adam sinful.

If God caused, planned, or coerced Adam to sin, then God would be the author of evil, yes?

 

[Ladodgers6]

When the Lord gave Satan permission to test Job?

Question or statement?

Did not God cause Job to suffer in doing so?

God did not cause Job to suffer, he allowed it. Big difference.

After all... knowing what would happen?
God caused it.

No Sir, God did caused it, but allowed it, for his sovereign reasons.

The Lord even instigated Satan concerning Job. (Job 1:8)
For Satan up to then was bypassing Job.


6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household
and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout
the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Job 1:6-12

The Lord instigated Job's testing by Satan. Look at verse 8!
Satan did not come before the Lord asking to take a crack at Job. Satan had been leaving Job be.


Job had to do with the prehistoric angelic conflict.
Just like the fall of Adam was, because of the prehistory of the angels.

grace and peace ....................

Well, I hold to the Biblical Theology of Christ being preached from Genesis through Revelation. Job was a type or shadow of the one to come, who would be tested in the wilderness, who is the suffering servant of God, who would not grumble but be silent unto death.

The Promised Seed.

 

[GeneZ]

How did God plan for it? I disagree with that God wanted it to happen. Because then it would be that God wanted Adam to sin, correct? Does God condone sin? God allowing it to happen or permitting it, is not God wanting it to happen.​

It looks bad on first take.

But.. In the long run, it would work for God's Glory.

God works that way at times, as He is making His enemies into His footstool.



" You planned evil against me; God planned it for good to bring about
"the present result—the survival of many people."
Genesis 50:20

 

[GeneZ]

No Sir, God did caused it, but allowed it, for his sovereign reasons.

Really? You mean Satan came before the Lord and requested to sift Job like wheat? Really.

Job 1:8 says that God INSTIGATED it!

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man
who fears God and shuns evil.”

Try reading verses 8-12 for the context of what I speak.
Satan appeared before the Lord with no intention about Job.

The Lord instigated it.


Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

If the Lord did not bring up Job to Satan he would have never had done what he had to Job.

grace and peace ..................

 

[CrowCross]

Before our world was created on the face of this earth.
Before anyone was born of Adam and the Woman?
Even before Adam and the woman existed?

God already planned for the Fall of Man.
Of course God is omniscient and knew man would fall.
The question I have God gave the green light to have man fall?

All those who make their home on the earth will worship the beast—those whose names have not been written ​

from the beginning of the world in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb that was slain." Revelation 13:8​

There is a distinction made in Revelation 13:8 between the planet/earth. And, cosmos = world of mankind.

From the beginning of man's creation the Lamb was slain in preparation for the fall of man.

Now the question is?

Did God want the fall to take place?
And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

In order to understand why the fall of Adam took place for God's purpose, we must first come to another realization.
That angels preceded the creation of man.

And, most importantly.

That before Adam and the woman were in the Garden?
Satan was already fallen.

That I disagree with. I hope you don't mind...but, the bible presents Satan walking in the Garden of Eden in an unfallen state.
The best I can deduce is that satan fell after day 6 and 7...as everything was "very good" according to God.....yet before the temptation.

And, with his angels with him who had made a choice to rebel against the authority of God over them.

Young earth creationists will not be able to follow what I have to say unless they are willing to drop their bias.

The angels were originally given dominion over what we now refer to as the prehistoric earth.
Just like Adam at his creation was given dominion over our current created world, so were the angels over the prehistoric earth.

God had authority over the angels running the prehistoric world. Just as God had authority over Adam and the woman.

I've heard that but have seen nothing convincing in the bible that speaks of a pre-adamic world.

Some must wonder...
"Why should God want mankind to fall?"

Perhaps God has to show all of His characteristics....and to demonstrate justice, mercy and grace man had to fall and then be redeemed.

After all.. He knew man would fall before creating him.

Revelation 13:8, tells us God already had plans to redeem man before man was created.

This may ruffle some feathers of some.

For others it will cause a sense of relief.
Relief to realize that the reason for the mess we are stuck in at present ?
Will all makes sense.

grace and peace ................

 

[Ladodgers6]

It looks bad on first take.

But.. In the long run, it would work for God's Glory.

God works that way at times, as He is making His enemies into His footstool.



" You planned evil against me; God planned it for good to bring about
"the present result—the survival of many people."
Genesis 50:20

So, God planned Adam to sin?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Really? You mean Satan came before the Lord and requested to sift Job like wheat? Really.

Job 1:8 says that God INSTIGATED it!

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man
who fears God and shuns evil.”

Try reading verses 8-12 for the context of what I speak.
Satan appeared before the Lord with no intention about Job.

The Lord instigated it.


Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

If the Lord did not bring up Job to Satan he would have never had done what he had to Job.

grace and peace ..................

As I wrote before, Job is a type and shadow of the Promise Seed to come. Throughout Scripture the central theme is always Christ.

 

[GeneZ]

That I disagree with. I hope you don't mind...but, the bible presents Satan walking in the Garden of Eden in an unfallen state.

I do not understand how you can say that.

Satan was created to be a liar then?

Satan contradicted the command of God.

what are you saying? Was that a mistake?

 

[GeneZ]

So, God planned Adam to sin?

God, knowing Satan, left the planning to Satan.
God gave permission for Satan to test Adam and the woman.

If some here would please cool down a bit, I can show you how God had a plan to trap Satan and expose Satan to himself for what he is.
For Satan is a chain denier until he is confronted with what tricks him to admitting the truth.

 

[GeneZ]

As I wrote before, Job is a type and shadow of the Promise Seed to come. Throughout Scripture the central theme is always Christ.

That is not what happened with Job. And, what happened with Job is central to Christ concerning the integrity of God.

 

[GeneZ]

That I disagree with. I hope you don't mind...but, the bible presents Satan walking in the Garden of Eden in an unfallen state.
The best I can deduce is that satan fell after day 6 and 7...as everything was "very good" according to God.....yet before the temptation.

I think I found what was confusing you.

You must be confusing Ezekiel 28:13 with Garden of Eden the Lord planted in Genesis 2?

In Genesis 2 the garden its simply called the Garden of Eden (Eden means pleasurable).

In Ezekiel 28:13, the Garden Satan walked in was also called Eden (pleasurable), but it was called the Garden of God, not simply Garden of Eden.

Satan walked in a Garden of God that came before the garden of Eden.

Just as God created prehistoric animals, God created a prehistoric Garden which may have been in heaven, not the earth!
A parallel world.

Here...

Ezekiel 28:14

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.​

Later Satan was thrown down to the earth!

Ezekiel 28:17b

17b Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth.
​

Satan was thrown down to earth from heaven!

The Garden of God that Satan had walked with the fiery stones in was in heaven.

grace and peace ..............

 

[sawdust]

Let's see if anyone else is interested.

I'm listening. I'll wait till you finish the story before I ask questions, if indeed, I have any.

 

[Ladodgers6]

God, knowing Satan, left the planning to Satan.
God gave permission for Satan to test Adam and the woman.

If some here would please cool down a bit, I can show you how God had a plan to trap Satan and expose Satan to himself for what he is.
For Satan is a chain denier until he is confronted with what tricks him to admitting the truth.

God and Adam were in a Covenant of Works. Adam broke this Covenant and sanctions were rendered.

 

[Marilyn C]

Now the question is?

Did God want the fall to take place?
And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

We know that God created the highest heaven, the universe and the earth. He created it all good. However, God knew that whatever He created with a moral nature (angels and humans) that that needed experience to develop, (eg. faithfulness, loving kindness etc)

God the Father knew that His Son was the only one who could rule righteously over all He created. Thus, as rebellion set in God the Father set about enabling His Son to become part of the creation and expose the unrighteous rulerships. Then over time put down all rule, authority and power against God.

There is more to the discussion than just man.

 

[CrowCross]

I do not understand how you can say that.

Satan walked in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state.

Ezekiel 28:13 You (Satan) were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.

Satan was created to be a liar then?

Satan contradicted the command of God.

what are you saying? Was that a mistake?

 

[CrowCross]

I think I found what was confusing you.

You must be confusing Ezekiel 28:13 with Garden of Eden the Lord planted in Genesis 2?

In Genesis 2 the garden its simply called the Garden of Eden (Eden means pleasurable).

In Ezekiel 28:13, the Garden Satan walked in was also called Eden (pleasurable), but it was called the Garden of God, not simply Garden of Eden.

Satan walked in a Garden of God that came before the garden of Eden.

The bible doesn't speak of a garden that preceeded Eden.

If you want to identify what you said as speculation....then I could accept what you said as speculation.

 

[Rella]

Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?​

A great question and I do hope others also will join in.

Unfortunately I have to give a very brief synopsis of a study I have been working on ... on and off... but without specific concrete anything... just a good old gut feeling.... (house guests arriving until Sunday)

My gut tells me... and I well could be wrong... that God's Plan for the fall of Mankind was directly regarding Satan and his arrogance.... and their
battle after Satan chose to go on the darkside away from the light.

Later

 

[Josheb]

We are all acting out overtly what God has always known would be.

Sure, but how's that relevant to the specified subject of this op?

If this op is specifically about God's plan and the relevance of the fall in or to that plan then let's endeavor to keep the conversation focused thereon and not about all aspects of God's omni-attributes. My specific question, the one quoted in Post #19 is not answered with "We're all acting out what God knows," so let me ask the question again. We could all be acting out what God knows AND the answer to this question pose a completely different - fully scriptural - alternative to God causing the fall, God planning for the fall as a contingency, and/or God needing the fall for His plan to work.


Have you considered the option whereby God has a plan that covers everything, and it covers everything (a priori) so much that the fall is inconsequential to the plan and its completion?


Let me add another question that might help inform the one above. Scripture tells us Jesus came to address sin. Scripture also tells us Jesus came to undo the works of the devil.

Should we insert the word "only" or "solely" into those verses?

That's a fairly direct question that, in my mind, should readily, easily, and unequivocally be answered in the negative. No, Jesus did not come solely to address the fall. His incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension did undeniably address the fall, but that is not all it did, nor all it was intended to do. Do you agree?

 

[GeneZ]

Satan walked in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state.

Ezekiel 28:13 You (Satan) were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.

That is not describing the garden of Eden Adam walked in.

Just as the tabernacle had to be a copy of the one in heaven? Hebrews 8:5
So it was with the garden of Eden (for Adam), which was a type of Garden of God in heaven! (the one Satan walked amongst the fiery stones)

 

[Josheb]

There are those who stick to the Reformed theology as it was formulated by some centuries ago.

Then there are those who agree with Reformed theology, but up to a point.

Do you consider TULIP to be your approach to Reformed theology?
Meaning, for one... Do you espouse the doctrine of Limited Atonement?

Unlimited atonement does not automatically mean everyone will be saved.
It simply means everyone set before God could have been saved. That all sins were paid for.

I do believe TULIP is valid, veracious, and correct but [edit by mod: deleted content is off-topic]

Just answer the specific questions asked, address the specific comments posted, expect me to do the same and give me the opportunity to do so in a manner consistent with directives like Pr. 27:17, Php. 2:3, the objectives listed in Ephesians 4, and without rancor or suspicion.



Can I have at least some of the content in Posts 2-5 answered and/or addressed topically?