Why Did God Plan for the Fall of Man?

[GeneZ]

I do believe TULIP is valid, veracious, and correct but 1) that has NOTHING to do with my comments to LA, 2)

OK...

 

[GeneZ]

The bible doesn't speak of a garden that preceeded Eden.

If you want to identify what you said as speculation....then I could accept what you said as speculation.

Does the Garden pre-fallen Satan walked in describe the one Adam found himself in?

One is called Eden, the Garden of God.
The other is only the garden of Eden.
Where Adam lived it was not called the Garden of God!
(Eden in the Hebrew means a pleasurable, delightful)

Satan was thrown down to earth after having been in the Garden of God.
Adam began on the earth.

As the tabernacle in the wilderness needed to be a copy of the one in heaven?
So on earth was the garden a type of the one that was in Heaven that Lucifer walked amongst the "fiery stones."

​

You were in Eden,​

the garden of God;​

every precious stone adorned you:​

carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,​

topaz, onyx and jasper,​

lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.​

Your settings and mountings were made of gold;​

on the day you were created they were prepared.​

You were anointed as a guardian cherub,​

for so I ordained you.​

You were on the holy mount of God;​

you walked among the fiery stones."​

Ezekiel 28:13-14​

That was not the same garden Adam walked in!

grace and peace ................

 

[CrowCross]

That is not describing the garden of Eden Adam walked in.

Just as the tabernacle had to be a copy of the one in heaven? Hebrews 8:5
So it was with the garden of Eden (for Adam), which was a type of Garden of God in heaven! (the one Satan walked amongst the fiery stones)

As I said...speculation. You'll need a couple of biblical verses to back your opinion up.

As to the fiery stones....that could have been lava in or around the garden of Eden.....but like you, I'm speculating.

 

[GeneZ]

As I said...speculation. You'll need a couple of biblical verses to back your opinion up.

As to the fiery stones....that could have been lava in or around the garden of Eden.....but like you, I'm speculating.

You were in Eden,​

the garden of God;​

every precious stone adorned you:​

carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,​

topaz, onyx and jasper,​

lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.​

Your settings and mountings were made of gold;​

on the day you were created they were prepared.​

You were anointed as a guardian cherub,​

for so I ordained you.​

You were on the holy mount of God;​

you walked among the fiery stones."​

Ezekiel 28:13-14​

Adam was not in was called the Holy Mount of God.
Nor ,were there fiery stones for Adam to walk among.

It was a different Garden.

Now, if you can not see this? Fine.

Others will see it.

In Christ....

 

[CrowCross]

You were in Eden,​

the garden of God;​

every precious stone adorned you:​

carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,​

topaz, onyx and jasper,​

lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.​

Your settings and mountings were made of gold;​

on the day you were created they were prepared.​

You were anointed as a guardian cherub,​

for so I ordained you.​

You were on the holy mount of God;​

you walked among the fiery stones."​

Ezekiel 28:13-14​

Adam was not in was called the Holy Mount of God.
Nor ,were there fiery stones for Adam to walk among.

It was a different Garden.

Now, if you can not see this? Fine.

Others will see it.

In Christ....

You speak as if the Garden of Eden and the holy mount of God are the same place....more speculation.

I would imagine you also think this verse speaks of a different garden

9 I made it beautiful with its many branches,

the envy of all the trees of Eden,

which were in the garden of God.’

 

[GeneZ]

You speak as if the Garden of Eden and the holy mount of God are the same place....more speculation.

Its a continuing thought...

Adam's place was never called the "Garden of God."

And, the Garden for Adam became manifested only at this time...



Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so
on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the
seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work
of creating that he had done.

This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up,
for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the
ground." Genesis 2:1-5

How was Satan walking around in that garden? No less, with fiery stones?

 

[CrowCross]

Its a continuing thought...

Adam's place was never called the "Garden of God."

I would imagine you also think this verse speaks of a different garden

9 I made it beautiful with its many branches,

the envy of all the trees of Eden,

which were in the garden of God.’

 

[GeneZ]

I would imagine you also think this verse speaks of a different garden

9 I made it beautiful with its many branches,

the envy of all the trees of Eden,

which were in the garden of God.’

9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


That is what it says in Genesis 2:9. In Adam's garden of Eden.

Where were you getting your verse '9' from?

 

[GeneZ]

I would imagine you also think this verse speaks of a different garden

9 I made it beautiful with its many branches,

the envy of all the trees of Eden,

which were in the garden of God.’

Ezekiel 31 is waxing metaphorical.

The real garden on earth was cut off from man's contact.

So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground
from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the
east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back
and forth to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3:23-24



But, the garden in Ezekiel 31, speaks of nations finding refuge in it.


6 All the birds of the sky
nested in its boughs,
all the animals of the wild
gave birth under its branches;
all the great nations
lived in its shade.

 

[CrowCross]

9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


That is what it says in Genesis 2:9. In Adam's garden of Eden.

Where were you getting your verse '9' from?

The bible speaks of one garden.

Ezekiel 31 is waxing metaphorical.

The real garden on earth was cut off from man's contact.

So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground
from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the
east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back
and forth to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3:23-24



But, the garden in Ezekiel 31, speaks of nations finding refuge in it.


6 All the birds of the sky
nested in its boughs,
all the animals of the wild
gave birth under its branches;
all the great nations
lived in its shade.

That verse is talking about....3Look at Assyria, a cedar in Lebanon....and comparing it to Eden.

 

[GeneZ]

The bible speaks of one garden.

That verse is talking about....3Look at Assyria, a cedar in Lebanon....and comparing it to Eden.

So... where are we now? You believe that Lucifer walked in the Garden on earth... quickly fell... was quickly judged... and was allowed to pop up in the Garden of Eden on earth to temp Adam and the woman right after his judgment.

Tell me? What did Satan end up doing to fall while on earth?

 

[CrowCross]

So... where are we now? You believe that Lucifer walked in the Garden on earth... quickly fell... was quickly judged... and was allowed to pop up in the Garden of Eden on earth to temp Adam and the woman right after his judgment.

Something like that. Considering the bible says Satan walked in the garden in an unfallen state...and then tempted Eve.

Tell me? What did Satan end up doing to fall while on earth?

Isaiah 14:12-14.....you can start there.

 

[GeneZ]

Something like that. Considering the bible says Satan walked in the garden in an unfallen state...and then tempted Eve.

Isaiah 14:12-14.....you can start there.

The problem I am having is that the Garden of God described in Ezekiel 28
is not the same as the description of the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2.
Where were the fiery stones? And, why would angels who's home is in
heaven have Lucifer glorying on earth in a garden which is inferior to heaven?
Like I said earlier, the Tabernacle Moses was commanded to build was to be
a representative copy of the one in heaven. Two tabernacles existed.
One in Heaven and one on earth. Likewise for the Gardens.

And, something else not being considered.

Satan had to fall and introduce evil before the concept of good and evil were to come into existence.
Before Satan fell there was no such thing as good and evil to be found in God's kingdom. Yet?

In the garden of Eden it began from the start having the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...
So, something in the past that took place had that tree to be there to begin with to test with..

It all makes sense when its understood.

 

[CrowCross]

The problem I am having is that the Garden of God described in Ezekiel 28
is not the same as the description of the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2.
Where were the fiery stones? And, why would angels who's home is in
heaven have Lucifer glorying on earth in a garden which is inferior to heaven?

Who says Eden was inferior?

Like I said earlier, the Tabernacle Moses was commanded to build was to be
a representative copy of the one in heaven. Two tabernacles existed.
One in Heaven and one on earth. Likewise for the Gardens.

OK, but this isn't mentioned about the Garden of Eden....or do you have a chapter and verse that says the Garden of Eden is a copy of what is in heaven?

To be honest I see speculation. Will you at least mention it's speculation?

And, something else not being considered.

Satan had to fall and introduce evil before the concept of good and evil were to come into existence.
Before Satan fell there was no such thing as good and evil to be found in God's kingdom. Yet?

God called His creation...very good...which was before the fall of Satan....or else God wouldn't have called it very good.

In the garden of Eden it began from the start having the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...
So, something in the past that took place had that tree to be there to begin with to test with..

I fail to see a point being made here.

It all makes sense when its understood.

You have too may holes. It doesn't work.

 

[atpollard]

Did God want the fall to take place?

SOMEONE placed Adam, Eve, a Tree and the Serpent all in the same GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION (a small garden).
SOMEONE had an angel with a flaming sword that can control access to certain Trees standing in the wings (to be deployed later).
SOMEONE certainly seems to have set the stage.

And, did it serve God's purpose to have it happen?

Does anything happen that does NOT serve God's purpose?
[It was a rhetorical question whose answer is "no." So the FALL must also serve God's purpose.]

 

[GeneZ]

You have too may holes. It doesn't work.

The holes you speak of may simply be truths you have not yet learned to be able to be thinking with.
It takes gaining more and more knowledge of God's Word. Gained for the love of learning God's Word.
Then when challenged by something? God by the Spirit brings it back to memory and will correlate something
you learned to solve the problem. That is God's means for insight.

We are not under Law. We are under grace and truth. Not everything is to be spelled out for us in black and white.

We need to overcome our deficiency preventing insight by gaining more and more knowledge.

Philippians 1:9-11

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, ​

so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled ​

with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God."​

grace and peace .......

 

[GeneZ]

Does anything happen that does NOT serve God's purpose?
[It was a rhetorical question whose answer is "no." So the FALL must also serve God's purpose.]

Name that purpose.

 

[atpollard]

Name that purpose.

You are asking the wrong god.

• I am god with a little "g" ... an idol with no real power, just delusions of grandeur.
• You want God with a big "G" ... He is the one with the OMNISCIENCE.

It is a common mistake. People often get us confused and ask me things that are strictly HIS pay grade.

 

[GeneZ]

You are asking the wrong god.

• I am god with a little "g" ... an idol with no real power, just delusions of grandeur.
• You want God with a big "G" ... He is the one with the OMNISCIENCE.

It is a common mistake. People often get us confused and ask me things that are strictly HIS pay grade.

OK... no answer was to be given. Not a real one.

There was a very real purpose in God allowing Satan to cause the fall.

 

[atpollard]

Not a real one.

You desire a REAL answer:

Job 40:6-14 [NLT]
Then the LORD answered Job from the whirlwind:

“Brace yourself like a man,​

because I have some questions for you,​

and you must answer them.​

“Will you discredit my justice​

and condemn me just to prove you are right?​

Are you as strong as God?​

Can you thunder with a voice like his?​

All right, put on your glory and splendor,​

your honor and majesty.​

Give vent to your anger.​

Let it overflow against the proud.​

Humiliate the proud with a glance;​

walk on the wicked where they stand.​

Bury them in the dust.​

Imprison them in the world of the dead.​

Then even I would praise you,​

for your own strength would save you.​