Rom 9: Confirms free will of man

[David Lamb]

I agree.

I was thinking about the Hebrews 6 passage .

After declaring judgment on the un-believers .The Holy Spirit comforts the believer promising he will no forget the good works we can miraculously offer as a living sacrifice towards his name or power .

We have His faithful power in us but would never say it is of us .Without him we can do zip nothing .Emanuel's good pleasure working with us

I would think he remembers even what we forget . John 14 informs it is he who brings the previous things he had taught us as our comforter. He even bring to our memory each other.

Memory one of the better gifts

Hebrew 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Thanks for that. I'm glad we agree!

 

[Red Baker]

1) Imputation, by definition, is not "actual," it is reckoned, accounted, ascribed as though it were actual.
As in adoption does not make one an actual biological child, it makes one (legally) counted/reckoned/ascribed as though a biological child.
Abraham was imputed/reckoned/accounted as righteous (Ge 15:5, Ro 4:1-5), he was not actually righteous (sinless), he was still sinful with a fallen nature.

2) Adam's fallen (sinful) nature was actually caused by his fall (disobedience) which we now inherit as his descendants, which fallen nature is incapable of perfect obedience, and which disobedience/sin is the cause of man's condemnation at the judgment.

In addition to being guilty of sin committed due to his fallen human nature, man is also guilty of Adam's sin imputed to him (Ro 5:14 17-19),
which is why all died between Adam and Moses ("sin was in the world") when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, they were not guilty of any personal sin (Ro 5:12-14) to cause their death.
They were guilty of Adam's sin imputed/reckoned/accounted to them (Ro 5:17), which imputation of Adam's sin to them is the pattern of the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:14. 18-19).

3) Imputed righteousness does not make one actually (by action) righteous,
one is only reckoned/accounted/ascribed as righteous, and outcomes of both the actual and the imputed are the same--children of God.
Imputed sin of Adam does not make one actually (by action) guilty of Adam's sin, only reckoned/accounted/ascribed as guilty, the outcomes of both the actual and the imputed being the same--eternal condemnation.

Fallen nature and imputation of Adam's sin are two different things.

Fallen nature is inherited, it is actual, it is not imputed (accounted, reckoned).
The guilt of Adam's sin is imputed (accounted, reckoned), it is not inherited, it is not actual for man does not inherit the guilt of his father's sin.

All mankind is condemned by the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:12-14) without ever committing an act of their own.

Imputation, by definition, is not actual.

Righteousness can be imputed, righteousness can be actual, righteousness can be non-existent, etc.

There are two kinds of righteousness:
justification - sentence of acquittal, declared "not guilty," sinless, forensic righteousness (imputed because one is now sinless)
sanctification - actual righteousness of obedience in the Holy Spirit.

The "righteousness of Christ" imputed to us in justification refers to the forensic righteousness imputed to us due to the death of the righteous Christ which removed our sin.
Our actual righteousness is by sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit.

I suspect this is all as clear as mud.

"I suspect this is all as clear as mud."~actually, you did a great job, and made it as clear as the noon day sun shinning in its brightness. Easy to follow, and more importantly, very scriptural.

 

[Red Baker]

Christ's righteousness is imputed to them when they are justified by the remission of their sin at the time of their coming to saving faith.

I would have to disagree with this statement. I'll come back and explain myself.

 

[Mr GLee]

Christ's righteousness is imputed to them when they are justified by the remission of their sin at the time of their coming to saving faith.

Yes altogether as one work "Let there be breath of life"

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[brightfame52]

The good deeds yoked with Christ do .

So your good deeds along with Christ Justified you before God ?

 

[Mr GLee]

So your good deeds along with Christ Justified you before God ?

Without Christ the husband there are no good deeds .

He works with His wife to both (the key) . .understanding and empower to do. Team work .

 

[brightfame52]

Without Christ the husband there are no good deeds .

He works with His wife to both (the key) . .understanding and empower to do. Team work .

So your good deeds along with Christ Justified you before God ? That means Christ Good Deeds alone wasn't sufficient to justify you b4 God

 

[Eleanor]

OK. If you say so. I see it a bit different.
I see the result of Adams sin being passed along. I don't see us guilty for taking the bite of the fruit.

Exegete Ro 5:12-14, in consistency with all its points, and we'll go from there.

 

[Eleanor]

I agree, I think. I only don't if I don't fully understand what you are saying. Would you agree if I worded my view this way?

The first imputation---that of Adam---is actual. It made the human creature a sinful being (one who does sin, and so is not, and cannot be, perfect in righteousness. Condemning them before the holy God who created them. Legal code of law or not.)

1) Imputation (of sin and righteous) by definition cannot be actual, it is always simpy reckoned, accounted, or put down to a person's account even though he does not actually have it.

2) Man is a sinful human being because he inherits Adam's fallen nature, which nature sins.

3) Man does not inherit his father's sin (Eze 18:20--the operative word here being inherit, which is not Imputation).

To inherit is actual acquirement.
To impute is not actual acquirement, but simply a reckoning, accounting, treating as actual.
Just as adoption is not actual biological sonship, but a (legal) reckoning, accounting, treating as actual biological sonship.

The second imputation---that of righteousness through Christ's person and work---will be actual,

When it is actual, it is no longer imputed.

but in this age we are still a sinful creature, but our sins cannot and will not be counted against us, because in Christ we are judged righteous. Sin has lost its power to condemn us because they have met God's justice against sin, on the cross. Jesus, who did do perfect righteousness, paid the debt and nailed our sins to the cross.

Imputation, by definition, is not actual, but it is counted as actual.
Abraham was not actually righteous, he had a sinful nature, but his faith was counted, credited, imputed as righteousness (Ge 15:5, Ro 4:1-5).

 

[CrowCross]

Exegete Ro 5:12-14, in consistency with all its points, and we'll go from there.

12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Where does it say we have the actual sin of Adam biting the fruit imputed to us?

Now, as a result of that biting of the fruit all men...Adams progeny...die. Die in two ways...physically and spiritually.

We as humans suffer the repercussion of Adam eating the fruit.

 

[brightfame52]

12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Where does it say we have the actual sin of Adam biting the fruit imputed to us?

Now, as a result of that biting of the fruit all men...Adams progeny...die. Die in two ways...physically and spiritually.

We as humans suffer the repercussion of Adam eating the fruit.

Because Adam was a federal representative head of all his natural posterity, when he ate of the forbidden fruit, they ate of it, as far as God is concerned, his flesh was theirs ,Adam’s disobedience is ours by nature; for though my person has not eaten, yet my flesh has; so that flesh and nature has eaten in the person of Adam;so that his Disobedience is imputed to my person, for it is the proper act of my flesh. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” {Rom.5:12} “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.” {Rom.5:12http://www.supralapsarian.com/David_Culy.html

 

[Mr GLee]

So your good deeds along with Christ Justified you before God ? That means Christ Good Deeds alone wasn't sufficient to justify you b4 God

Christ our husband's powerful good deeds worked in and with the Son of man, Jesus our brother in the lord just as with any born again from above .

Jesus as the Son of man (born of women) is not ashamed to call us brothers and sisters in the Lord. Those who obey and call no man Holy Father (Pope) on earth.

One is our invisible husband (Christ)

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

As born again believer we are freely given the power to please the Faithful and True ."Let there be Creator "

But born agin believers would never assume any of the power came from dying mankind .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ our husband's powerful good deeds worked in and with the Son of man, Jesus our brother in the lord just as with any born again from above .

Jesus as the Son of man (born of women) is not ashamed to call us brothers and sisters in the Lord. Those who obey and call no man Holy Father (Pope) on earth.

One is our invisible husband (Christ)

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

As born again believer we are freely given the power to please the Faithful and True ."Let there be Creator "

But born agin believers would never assume any of the power came from dying mankind .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

So your good deeds along with Christ Justified you before God ? That means Christ Good Deeds alone wasn't sufficient to justify you b4 God

 

[CrowCross]

Because Adam was a federal representative head of all his natural posterity, when he ate of the forbidden fruit, they ate of it, as far as God is concerned, his flesh was theirs ,Adam’s disobedience is ours by nature; for though my person has not eaten, yet my flesh has; so that flesh and nature has eaten in the person of Adam;so that his Disobedience is imputed to my person, for it is the proper act of my flesh. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” {Rom.5:12} “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.” {Rom.5:12http://www.supralapsarian.com/David_Culy.html

No, it doesn't work quite like that. We suffer the results of Adams disobedience.

For example Eve was given "pain" in childbirth as a result of her disobedience. Even though every mother didn't eat the fruit...they suffer the genetic result.

Mans nature was also changed. Mankind, that is the nature of Adams progeny changed. We have never had what Adam lost. When Adam sinned, we sinned in him. There is a moral corruption we possess as a consequence of Adam’s sin...original sin.

 

[Mr GLee]

So your good deeds along with Christ Justified you before God ? That means Christ Good Deeds alone wasn't sufficient to justify you b4 God

We the powerless are strengthen by his good deeds

His good deed as a labor of love also called work of faith worked in us with us .The better things that acompanies salivation. Christ in us working with Him .He will not forget the good works we miraculously can offer knowing its power is not of us. Dying mankind carrying out the appointment to die once .

No retrial . double jeapordy. No sufferings after death

 

[brightfame52]

@CrowCross

No, it doesn't work quite like that.

Im afraid it does

. We suffer the results of Adams disobedience.

Thats true too, since we were involved, by him being our constituted head. Its the same principle as it was said that levi payed tithes in Abe Heb 7:9

And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

For example Eve was given "pain" in childbirth as a result of her disobedience. Even though every mother didn't eat the fruit...they suffer the genetic result.

Insufficient, eve was nobody's head, but Adam was, even her head

We have never had what Adam lost.

We did in Adam before he sinned, that's why its said man was created upright, thats not just talking about adam even though he was a single individual in the beginning Ecc 7 29

Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

When Adam sinned, we sinned in him.

Correct thats my point in the first place duh

There is a moral corruption we possess as a consequence of Adam’s sin...original sin.

Our original sin in Adam

When Adam sinned, God says all men sinned Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All men have sinned in Adam. The word sinned is active aorist verb indicative , all actively sinned in the past in Adam, even people who had not yet been born. Because they actively sinned in Adam before they were born. Like levi payd tithes b4 he was born

 

[brightfame52]

We the powerless are strengthen by his good deeds

His good deed as a labor of love also called work of faith worked in us with us .The better things that acompanies salivation. Christ in us working with Him .He will not forget the good works we miraculously can offer knowing its power is not of us. Dying mankind carrying out the appointment to die once .

No retrial . double jeapordy. No sufferings after death

So your good deeds along with Christ Justified you before God ? That means Christ Good Deeds alone wasn't sufficient to justify you b4 God

 

[Eleanor]

12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Where does it say we have the actual sin of Adam biting the fruit imputed to us?

Now, as a result of that biting of the fruit all men...Adams progeny...die. Die in two ways...physically and spiritually.

We as humans suffer the repercussion of Adam eating the fruit.

You did not exegete Ro 5:12-14 (three verses) in consistency with all its points as requested, from which we will then proceed.

 

[Mr GLee]

So your good deeds along with Christ Justified you before God ? That means Christ Good Deeds alone wasn't sufficient to justify you b4 God

The two working as one gospel of sufficiency The dynamic dual. One seen dying mankind demonstrating the power of the eternal one not seen.