Rom 9: Confirms free will of man

[brightfame52]

@Eleanor

It was the sin of Adam ("sin was in the world") that was charged (imputed) to all those of Adam (Ro 5:14) which caused death between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to sin against,
and which imputation of Adam's sin was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being charged (imputed) to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Okay, good analogy, so is it just like with adam, in that adams sin was imputed to his w/o their actual disobedience, is it that Christs righteousness is imputed to His w/o their actual obedience ?

 

[Eleanor]

@Eleanor


Okay, good analogy, so is it just like with adam, in that adams sin was imputed to his w/o their actual disobedience, is it that Christs righteousness is imputed to His w/o their actual obedience ?

Yes. . .all are born guilty of Adam's imputed sin before they are ever disobedient on their own, which is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law to disobey and, therefore, no disobedience/sin occurred to cause their deaths.

And that imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam was the pattern for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:14, 17) to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[CrowCross]

The cause of death is sin (Ro 6:23).

The burden of Ro 5:12-14,
which presents all those of Adam dying between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against to cause their deaths,
is that men died between Adam and Moses because of the sin of Adam imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17),
and which (imputation) is the pattern of the one to come (Ro 5:14,
i.e., pattern for righteousness of Christ imputed to all those of Christ, Ro 5:18-19).

"By the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man." (Ro 5:17).
Death reigned through that one man because of the imputation of that one man's sin (trespass) to all mankind (Ro 5:17-19).

It was the sin of Adam ("sin was in the world") that was charged (imputed) to all those of Adam (Ro 5:14) which caused death between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to sin against,
and which imputation of Adam's sin was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being charged (imputed) to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

OK. If you say so. I see it a bit different.
I see the result of Adams sin being passed along. I don't see us guilty for taking the bite of the fruit.

 

[Eleanor]

OK. If you say so. I see it a bit different.
I see the result of Adams sin being passed along. I don't see us guilty for taking the bite of the fruit.

Our guilt of Adam's sin is imputed (Ro 5:14, 17) and is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against and cause their deaths, Ro 5:12-14),
which was the pattern for Christ's righteousness being imputed (Ro 5:14, 18-19).

 

[Arial]

The cause of death is sin (Ro 6:23).

The burden of Ro 5:12-14,
which presents all those of Adam dying between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against to cause their deaths,
is that men died between Adam and Moses because of the sin of Adam imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17),
and which (imputation) is the pattern of the one to come (Ro 5:14,
i.e., pattern for righteousness of Christ imputed to all those of Christ, Ro 5:18-19).

"By the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man." (Ro 5:17).
Death reigned through that one man because of the imputation of that one man's sin (trespass) to all mankind (Ro 5:17-19).

It was the sin of Adam ("sin was in the world") that was charged (imputed) to all those of Adam (Ro 5:14) which caused death between Adam and Moses, when there was no law to sin against,
and which imputation of Adam's sin was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being charged (imputed) to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

I agree, I think. I only don't if I don't fully understand what you are saying. Would you agree if I worded my view this way?

The first imputation---that of Adam---is actual. It made the human creature a sinful being (one who does sin, and so is not, and cannot be, perfect in righteousness. Condemning them before the holy God who created them. Legal code of law or not.)

The second imputation---that of righteousness through Christ's person and work---will be actual, but in this age we are still a sinful creature, but our sins cannot and will not be counted against us, because in Christ we are judged righteous. Sin has lost its power to condemn us because they have met God's justice against sin, on the cross. Jesus, who did do perfect righteousness, paid the debt and nailed our sins to the cross.

 

[Ghada]

Any heathen idolator can give a freewill offering, that's not the same thing,

According to your philosophy, not according to God's word.

 

[Ghada]

An atheist would do it to his own glory saying .I am a good person .and they could be very good

True. All men created int he iamge of God have freewill at any time to do good deeds. And the deeds can be very good.

But good deeds alone do not justify any man with God. The heart must first be pure as created, for the deeds to be justified with God.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

3Jo 1:11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Doing good deeds is not necessarily the same as doing good with God. The heart must be pure in Christ Jesus to do good. Any heart of lust can freely choose to do a good deed from time to time, just as also choose to do evil from time to time.

Even the yes dear . . please a cup of coffee with sweet cream and two peanut butter cookies . . .coming up . She is checking the list twice LOL

As you show, even adulterers can thank the cuckolded spouse for a hot cup of coffee. With plenty of suger on top to make it more pleasing.

 

[Ghada]

Sanctification doesn't happen overnight.

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Heb 2:11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Jde 1:1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

God's sanctification is made instantly by the Spirit. Man's own sanctificaiton takes as long as man wants to make it. God never speaks of sanctifying His people. Only sinners sinning less than before speak of being sanctified, but not completely yet.

The difference is between them that repent God's way from all sins and trespasses, and them that repent their own way from some sins and trespasses, but never completely yet.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

 

[brightfame52]

@Eleanor

Yes. . .all are born guilty of Adam's imputed sin before they are ever disobedient on their own, which is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law to disobey and, therefore, no disobedience/sin occurred to cause their deaths.

Okay agreed

And that imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam was the pattern for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:14, 17) to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Okay but this time you didnt finish the analogy of the two heads:

is it that Christs righteousness is imputed to His w/o their actual obedience ?

 

[brightfame52]

According to your philosophy, not according to God's word.

Obviously you lack understanding in this discussion.

 

[Ghada]

Man is not free to live a perfectly sinless life.

Rom 3:3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Jesus was a man, and He did so from His youth up. Saints in Christ Jesus do, and can do so from newbirth up.

Phl 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

2 Peter 1:6Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2Co 7:1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Jas 1:2My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Jde 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

He is free to choose, without external force or constraint, what he prefers, and with his fallen nature he prefers his will over God's will.

Speaking of sinners with their own hearts of lust, yes. Not of sons and saints with pure hearts of Jesus Christ.

He must be born again to live in obedience to God.

True. Doing His righteousness obediently, and not doing the unrighteousness of the disobedient.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[Ghada]

Obviously you lack understanding in this discussion.

Obviously you don't understand the difference between understanding someone, and rejecting what they say.

 

[Eleanor]

I agree, I think. I only don't if I don't fully understand what you are saying. Would you agree if I worded my view this way?

The first imputation---that of Adam---is actual. It made the human creature a sinful being (one who does sin, and so is not, and cannot be, perfect in righteousness.
The second imputation---that of righteousness through Christ's person and work---will be actual,

1) Imputation, by definition, is not "actual," it is reckoned, accounted, ascribed as though it were actual.
As in adoption does not make one an actual biological child, it makes one (legally) counted/reckoned/ascribed as though a biological child.
Abraham was imputed/reckoned/accounted as righteous (Ge 15:5, Ro 4:1-5), he was not actually righteous (sinless), he was still sinful with a fallen nature.

2) Adam's fallen (sinful) nature was actually caused by his fall (disobedience) which we now inherit as his descendants, which fallen nature is incapable of perfect obedience, and which disobedience/sin is the cause of man's condemnation at the judgment.

In addition to being guilty of sin committed due to his fallen human nature, man is also guilty of Adam's sin imputed to him (Ro 5:14 17-19),
which is why all died between Adam and Moses ("sin was in the world") when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, they were not guilty of any personal sin (Ro 5:12-14) to cause their death.
They were guilty of Adam's sin imputed/reckoned/accounted to them (Ro 5:17), which imputation of Adam's sin to them is the pattern of the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:14. 18-19).

3) Imputed righteousness does not make one actually (by action) righteous,
one is only reckoned/accounted/ascribed as righteous, and outcomes of both the actual and the imputed are the same--children of God.
Imputed sin of Adam does not make one actually (by action) guilty of Adam's sin, only reckoned/accounted/ascribed as guilty, the outcomes of both the actual and the imputed being the same--eternal condemnation.

Condemning them before the holy God who created them. Legal code of law or not.)

Fallen nature and imputation of Adam's sin are two different things.

Fallen nature is inherited, it is actual, it is not imputed (accounted, reckoned).
The guilt of Adam's sin is imputed (accounted, reckoned), it is not inherited, it is not actual for man does not inherit the guilt of his father's sin.

All mankind is condemned by the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:12-14) without ever committing an act of their own.

The second imputation---that of righteousness through Christ's person and work---will be actual,

Imputation, by definition, is not actual.

Righteousness can be imputed, righteousness can be actual, righteousness can be non-existent, etc.

There are two kinds of righteousness:
justification - sentence of acquittal, declared "not guilty," sinless, forensic righteousness (imputed because one is now sinless)
sanctification - actual righteousness of obedience in the Holy Spirit.

The "righteousness of Christ" imputed to us in justification refers to the forensic righteousness imputed to us due to the death of the righteous Christ which removed our sin.
Our actual righteousness is by sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit.

I suspect this is all as clear as mud.

but in this age we are still a sinful creature, but our sins cannot and will not be counted against us, because in Christ we are judged righteous. Sin has lost its power to condemn us because they have met God's justice against sin, on the cross. Jesus, who did do perfect righteousness, paid the debt and nailed our sins to the cross.

 

[Eleanor]

@Eleanor

Okay agreed

Okay but this time you didnt finish the analogy of the two heads:

is it that Christs righteousness is imputed to His w/o their actual obedience ?

Christ's righteousness is imputed to them when they are justified by the remission of their sin at the time of their coming to saving faith.

 

[Arial]

1) Imputation, by definition, is not "actual," it is reckoned, accounted, ascribed as though it were actual.

I speak of the effect of Adam's sin as being actual. We are actually sinners because of Adam's sin.

There are nuances to the word impute. In the case of Adam the sin he committed is not what we are judged for (eating the forbidden fruit), but his becoming a sinner is what is imputed to us. In the sense of attribute. "The action of regarding a quality, characteristic, or action as belonging to someone." We became sinners in Adam and therefore we sin.

With Christ we are not truly righteous, we still sin, we are still in Adam according to the flesh. But our sins were attributed to him on the cross and he took their penalty though he had done nothing to deserve it. Because of this substitution, his righteousness is attributed to the believer.

In addition to being guilty of sin committed due to his fallen human nature, man is also guilty of Adam's sin imputed to him (Ro 5:14 17-19),
which is why all died between Adam and Moses ("sin was in the world") when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, they were not guilty of any personal sin (Ro 5:12-14) to cause their death.

Definitely, man has to be taken out of Adam and placed in Christ. But I would say man is guilty of sin because Adam's sin is imputed to him. Theologically it is called federal headship. And it was of course decreed by God that Adam would be the federal head of all mankind----just as Jesus is the federal head of all the redeemed.

And I disagree with that second part that says before the Legal code of Law given through Moses, that no one was guilty of personal sin. There does not have to be a "legal document" defining sin in order for sin to be sin when we speak of sinning against God. The Law was serving a specific purpose in redemption. There was written Law given against murder when Cain slew Abel, and yet God judged him.

Imputation, by definition, is not actual.

But it will be. That is what I said, It is not now while we wait Christ's return, but it will be. At the moment it is a legal declaration. Not guilty.

 

[CrowCross]

Our guilt of Adam's sin is imputed (Ro 5:14, 17) and is why they all died between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against and cause their deaths, Ro 5:12-14),
which was the pattern for Christ's righteousness being imputed (Ro 5:14, 18-19).

OK. If you say so. I see it a bit different.
I see the result of Adams sin being passed along. I don't see us guilty for taking the bite of the fruit.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ's righteousness is imputed to them when they are justified by the remission of their sin at the time of their coming to saving faith.

That differs from the analogy and the scripture, the Truth is they are made righteous by the obedience of one , without their obedience just like previously they were made sinners by the disobedience of one without their disobedience Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So you are inconsistent

 

[Mr GLee]

But good deeds alone do not justify any man with God. The heart must first be pure as created, for the deeds to be justified with God.

The good deeds yoked with Christ do .

 

[David Lamb]

The good deeds yoked with Christ do .

No they don't. The bible says that we are not justified by our works. For example:

“Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.” (Ro 3:20 NKJV)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10 NKJV)

Those verses from Ephesians show that good works follow being saved, and being saved surely includes being justified. Of course, as James makes clear, faith without works is dead. If we claim to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but no good works follow, that claim is false.

 

[Mr GLee]

No they don't. The bible says that we are not justified by our works. For example:

“Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.” (Ro 3:20 NKJV)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10 NKJV)

Those verses from Ephesians show that good works follow being saved, and being saved surely includes being justified. Of course, as James makes clear, faith without works is dead. If we claim to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but no good works follow, that claim is false.

I agree.

I was thinking about the Hebrews 6 passage .

After declaring judgment on the un-believers .The Holy Spirit comforts the believer promising he will no forget the good works we can miraculously offer as a living sacrifice towards his name or power .

We have His faithful power in us but would never say it is of us .Without him we can do zip nothing .Emanuel's good pleasure working with us

I would think he remembers even what we forget . John 14 informs it is he who brings the previous things he had taught us as our comforter. He even bring to our memory each other.

Memory one of the better gifts

Hebrew 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.