The MOTHER of All Sin....

[jeremiah1five]

You present a description of destruction...who say's it describes a pre-Adamic world?

When I read "“The whole land will be desolate," or...For I am bringing disaster from the north, or Your cities will be reduced to ruins or "in that day,” declares the LORD.

Sounds futuristic....what tells us it was a pre-Adamic world?

The bible tells us Satan was in the Garden of Eden in an un-fallen state.

Ez 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.

There was no man (Adam.)

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 4:24–26.

Man hadn't been created yet. There was no 'adam.'

 

[Mr GLee]

There was no man (Adam.)

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 4:24–26.

Man hadn't been created yet. There was no 'adam.'

I would offer.

I would think mankind came on day six. Christ having prepared a place where mankind could breath and eat.

I would think not teaching a previous mysterious creation.

He did all the work in 6 days and is still resting Then Almighty eternal God breathed into the clay "Let there be" and "hello Adam" . said the Potter to the clay .

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

 

[CrowCross]

There was no man (Adam.)

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 4:24–26.

Man hadn't been created yet. There was no 'adam.'

120. אָדָם (adam)....is used quite often in the bible. 552 times.

It appears that the destruction will be so great one might compare it to the state of the world at creation.....formless and void.
Once again it speaks of a coming destruction.

Where did the birds go?

 

[jeremiah1five]

120. אָדָם (adam)....is used quite often in the bible. 552 times.

It appears that the destruction will be so great one might compare it to the state of the world at creation.....formless and void.

It is not metaphor or symbolism. It is literal.

Once again it speaks of a coming destruction.

No, past destruction. When did God turn the world upside down? It had to be in response to the angels that sinned.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 4:23–26.

When in earth's past did these things occur? Could only happen Gen. 1:2, or before 1:2 which left the heavens and earth in the condition of Gen. 1:2.

Compare:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Finished. Done. It is completed.
It was a fruitful place and had cities. These cities could have been pre-Adamic of the planet was occupied by angels. At least one angel (Lucifer) is on the Mount of God with a ministry of an 'anointed' cherub that covereth.
When Lucifer was cast down, he was laid before kings and kings lead to a kingdom and subjects/people. Evidence the earth was populated.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Ezek. 28:16–17.

When did God turn the world upside down? When did He express fierce anger? Had to be when the angels that sinned left their first estate and in order to remove them from their ministry on earth God destroyed the planet to leave it uninhabitable and once no more ministry then they were put in chains or darkness to await judgment. I believe in an old earth, young human race - 6000 years young.

Where did the birds go?

They flew. No mention of cattle, or whales, fish, lions or tigers or bears, oh my.

 

[Mr GLee]

No, past destruction. When did God turn the world upside down? It had to be in response to the angels that sinned.

In six days he did all the work. No secret hidden creation called angels A fake word as oral tradition of men of men

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[CrowCross]

It is not metaphor or symbolism. It is literal.

No, past destruction. When did God turn the world upside down? It had to be in response to the angels that sinned.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 4:23–26.

When in earth's past did these things occur? Could only happen Gen. 1:2, or before 1:2 which left the heavens and earth in the condition of Gen. 1:2.

Compare:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Finished. Done. It is completed.
It was a fruitful place and had cities. These cities could have been pre-Adamic of the planet was occupied by angels. At least one angel (Lucifer) is on the Mount of God with a ministry of an 'anointed' cherub that covereth.
When Lucifer was cast down, he was laid before kings and kings lead to a kingdom and subjects/people. Evidence the earth was populated.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Ezek. 28:16–17.

When did God turn the world upside down? When did He express fierce anger? Had to be when the angels that sinned left their first estate and in order to remove them from their ministry on earth God destroyed the planet to leave it uninhabitable and once no more ministry then they were put in chains or darkness to await judgment. I believe in an old earth, young human race - 6000 years young.


They flew. No mention of cattle, or whales, fish, lions or tigers or bears, oh my.

In a previous post I showed you several verses that surround your destruction verse that spoke in future terms.

Ezekiel speaks of Satan being in the Garden of Eden in an un-fallen state. Ezekiel 28:13. Eden would have been planted after your fall of Satan and a destroyed world....which screws up your timeline.

Sorry, but you're gonna need more than the Jer 4 verse.

When did God turn the world upside down? When did He express fierce anger? Had to be when the angels that sinned left their first estate and in order to remove them from their ministry on earth God destroyed the planet to leave it uninhabitable and once no more ministry then they were put in chains or darkness to await judgment. I believe in an old earth, young human race - 6000 years young.

You posted...When did God turn the world upside down?...Is there a verse that says this? Jer 4 is by no means conclusive.
The angels that sinned left their first estate are in reference to Gen 6.
How would the birds survive such a disaster when they fled? Fleeing indicates an escape to somewhere. Where did they go to avoid such disaster?
How do you know the earth is old?

 

[Mr GLee]

In a previous post I showed you several verses that surround your destruction verse that spoke in future terms.

Ezekiel speaks of Satan being in the Garden of Eden in an un-fallen state. Ezekiel 28:13. Eden would have been planted after your fall of Satan and a destroyed world....which screws up your timeline.

Sorry, but you're gonna need more than the Jer 4 verse.



You posted...When did God turn the world upside down?...Is there a verse that says this? Jer 4 is by no means conclusive.
The angels that sinned left their first estate are in reference to Gen 6.
How would the birds survive such a disaster when they fled? Fleeing indicates an escape to somewhere. Where did they go to avoid such disaster?
How do you know the earth is old?

Exactly, Man was formed on six after God set up the program of survival . Company, not alone created a wife .Food, water, clothing and shelter setup to go camping in the wilderness.

Adam would of starved to death or died of thirst. If God did not prepare a place the five pervious days

We have the same promise "I go to prepare a place" Preparing a place for his new bride

 

[jeremiah1five]

In a previous post I showed you several verses that surround your destruction verse that spoke in future terms.

And I disagreed because your conclusions are not sound. A couple of things did not add up. One was when did God execute His fierce anger so that the earth was turned upside down, or where in any destructive result did mountains tremble or hills move lightly? And the fact there was no man (on the planet) which leads to the only conclusion man wasn't created yet. All these and other questions must be answered, not merely explained away.

Ezekiel speaks of Satan being in the Garden of Eden in an un-fallen state. Ezekiel 28:13.

I agree that Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden. Ezekiel says so. But I don't agree he was in an unfallen state. I agree he only hadn't sinned yet. Everything in history has occurred in a place called Jerusalem of any import (and in Israel in general.) The Mount of God in the Mount of David and Jerusalem. The Garden would have to be there or nearby for it only makes sense that Adam and the woman's sin occurring in the Garden would be atoned nearby or on the exact spot such as Jesus crucified outside the city of Jerusalem. Then you say "Satan" or Lucifer (let's keep it biblical) was unfallen. That theology has already been debunked by me with the Adam and the woman being in an "unfallen" state before they ate from the tree and all Gentile theology says that's when they "Fell" which is wrong. So, the "Fall" of man is a lie. Adam and the woman sinned before they ate from the tree.
Ezekiel also states there were cities and kings during Lucifer being in the Garden. How many Gardens do you think at the time the fruitful place existed there were not more than one Garden.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Ezek. 28:17.

And I'm aware some might say that "laying before kings" has to do with some future exhibiting of Lucifer being a great sinner and enemy of mankind but Peter says that along with being "cast down to the ground" the angels that sinned were locked up in chains of darkness. Can you see into darkness? Can you even see or know where these angels that sinned are locked up? And who's doing all this "beholding"? And Isaiah adds more mystery. Who are these "nations"?


12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:12.

And also so this.


16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying,
Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof;
Isaiah 14:16–17.

It is so easy to say it is Babylon. No, sorry. There are enough major doctrines of the Bible that were understood when thinking "outside the box" and my favorite, taking the Scripture as written and not ignoring a word or words to maintain a long-held Gentile theology. I USED TO HOLD to Gentile theology of the last 1900 years only to have the Lord change my thinking and connect everything back to Israel and that family going backwards that were obedient to the Lord as opposed to the Adamites that were not (Nimrod, etc.) As a biblical Christian I put away childish things and learned to know how to study the bible, checking my sources, etc. When first born again in the 1970s I was taught an Arminian-Calvinism hybrid theology (like Pharisees and Sadducees) but that was OK for it exposed me to the two seeming schools of Christian teaching, and when I saw in Scripture with my own eyes passages that upheld one side over the other, I followed where the Lord led me. What blew my mind was coming to the same conclusions as Augustine and Martin Luther and Calvin and I never study these men's theology. I have read enough of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Genesis and Scripture as a whole see not everything is cut and dry. Heck, in order to understand the New Covenant era the Hebrews/Jews were in it took Saul at least fourteen to seventeen years to search the Scriptures to bring out from the Hebrew Scriptures what the New Covenant was all about, so I can confidently say at this point in time what happened in the time after God created a completed, finished, to specifications heaven and earth encapsulated in Genesis 1:1 will take some time. But I already find much Gentile theology that breaks with Scripture and is in error.

Eden would have been planted after your fall of Satan and a destroyed world....which screws up your timeline.

No, everything is found in this one verse:

1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen. 1:1.

So, there was a lot going on in that one verse that later required a recreation beginning in Genesis 1:2 because for some reason heaven and earth "was without form, and void, and darkness on the face of the deep" and great lights nor smaller lights were even (re-)created yet in order to cast shadows of darkness. When writing about Lucifer there are "kings" and "nations" and other unidentified personage also in the text. Can you at least admit that revelation of God's truth has not ALL been revealed and that what was once considered true can be found to be untrue? Not everything we have written by Saul is true and correct. I find him contradicting himself on at least three occasions in his letters that are clear, but many will feel threatened that this destroys the New Testament, and I don't see it as such. I know the Hebrew Scriptures as ordained by God and these ARE inspired and without doctrinal error. And everything in true, biblical Christianity - which is only Completed Judaism - can only be found in these writings called the Hebrew Scriptures from Genesis to Malachi. That's all we need. The New Testament are only Jews writing amongst themselves about the New Covenant era they found themselves in and their attempts to understand and make sense from the Hebrew Scriptures this "new" thing God was doing in the earth. Otherwise, the New Testament would have the same form as the Old Testament writings such as prophets declaring the counsel of God to ISRAEL without any mind towards non-Hebrew Gentiles who are not in any of the Hebrew covenants and as such got nothing coming to them of God. If this was so important God should have given Gentiles inclusion in all of the three Hebrew salvation covenants but He didn't Their inclusion is based on interpretation, not solid fact written into the Scripture. The gospels are firm. John's Revelation is too. But letters? And two personal letters to Timothy? Why personal if they contain such sweeping information about church government and such. Why isn't it addressed to Israel as a nation like the prophets? The New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled and completed, not ended.

Sorry, but you're gonna need more than the Jer 4 verse.
You posted...When did God turn the world upside down?...Is there a verse that says this? Jer 4 is by no means conclusive.

With Genesis and Isaiah, it is to me.

The angels that sinned left their first estate are in reference to Gen 6.

All the angels are male with pronouns of "he." The number is fixed and there are no female angels. Makes no sense for God to create a race of male angels with genitals and never create female angels. Or that spirit-beings copulating IN MARRIAGE mind you with material girls. And the decree of God that creature's mate with like creatures "AFTER THEIR KIND", a decree that cannot be altered or violated by the wild idea that sons of God are angels that mate with human women when their DNA isn't even the same. Even the spirit beings know this is impossible. It's like whales mating with squid, or dogs mating with cats. Science does not support such far-out teaching.

How would the birds survive such a disaster when they fled? Fleeing indicates an escape to somewhere. Where did they go to avoid such disaster?

Can't say. It only says they fled. Flew the coop. But could they survive a north to south turning of the planet? Talk about a shifting of the poles.

How do you know the earth is old?

Oh, I know about the discovering that the thickness of the dust on the moon supports a brief existence, but what if the moon was only created in Genesis and not before? Got to have a lesser light to reflect light upon the earth and as a clock for the nation of Israel for their calendar. But the speed of light is constant and light from distant stars has been traveling for billions of years. I'm old enough to remember the suggested age of the universe at 6.5 billion years in the 1960s, then changed to 13.8 billion, and now it's been extended even further. If light travels at 186,282 miles per second (about) and the agreed to age of the universe is 13.8 billion years old, how can it be explained the farthest star we know of is twenty-eight billion light-years away sending us its light? Math doesn't fit it. So, for other reasons I opt to an old universe and young humans on the earth (6000) years.

 

[TMSO]

There was no man (Adam.)

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer. 4:24–26.

Man hadn't been created yet. There was no 'adam.'

If this was speaking of prior to creation, what were all the cities that were broken down at the presence of the LORD and by His firece anger? Why do you rip verses from context.

How about the next two verses? "
27 For this is what the Lord says:
“The whole land shall be a desolation,
Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
28 For this the earth will mourn,
And the heavens above will become dark,
Because I have spoken, I have purposed,
And I have not [o]changed My mind, nor will I turn from it.”

You really need to read II Timothy 2:15 and follow it. The whole chapter is about Judah. It is prophecy. Notice that it says that the heavens above will become dark. A continuation of the verses you put. Context is key.

 

[CrowCross]

I agree that Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden. Ezekiel says so. But I don't agree he was in an unfallen state.

The description is in an un-fallen state in Ezekiel.

 

[TMSO]

The description is in an un-fallen state in Ezekiel.

Jeremiah five believes that God created Satan as a sinner, as well as Adam and Eve. They were never sinless. His definition of unfallen is completely different then yours. (As is his definition of fallen.) They were sinners from the moment they were created. (No they weren't). He says that sinlessness is God's glory, therefore nothing/no one can ever be sinless. He doesn't understand that sinless is God's NATURE. So Adam and Eve can be sinless, though the ability to fall is part of their nature, while not a part of God's nature. (God can't sin. Whatever God does, no matter what that is, by definition is not a sin. He is the standard, so whatever He does is the standard. It is His nature.

 

[CrowCross]

Jeremiah five believes that God created Satan as a sinner, as well as Adam and Eve. They were never sinless. His definition of unfallen is completely different then yours. (As is his definition of fallen.) They were sinners from the moment they were created. (No they weren't). He says that sinlessness is God's glory, therefore nothing/no one can ever be sinless. He doesn't understand that sinless is God's NATURE. So Adam and Eve can be sinless, though the ability to fall is part of their nature, while not a part of God's nature. (God can't sin. Whatever God does, no matter what that is, by definition is not a sin. He is the standard, so whatever He does is the standard. It is His nature.

Jeremiah five gets a lot wrong.

 

[jeremiah1five]

If this was speaking of prior to creation, what were all the cities that were broken down at the presence of the LORD and by His firece anger? Why do you rip verses from context.

What? You can't conceive of the planet being inhabited before man? Angels (spirit-beings) had ministry on the planet. There were cities as it clearly says. Genesis says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
Finished. Complete. Done. Either in one word or in time. It doesn't say. But it does say God created the heaven and the earth.
BUT
The earth was without form, and void, and darkness upon the face of the deep.
Since God does not create 'things' void, without form, and in darkness, something happened to the planet - maybe the whole universe - that rendered it in that condition. In believe Isaiah reveals something of that time:

1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste,
And turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isaiah 24:1.

The LORD "maketh" the earth empty, waste, and turned it upside down, and scattered the inhabitants. If the inhabitants are angels, then they flew the coop.

"maketh" [Strong's #1238] a primitive root; to pour out, i.e. to empty, figurative to depopulate; by analogy to spread out (as a fruitful vine.)

When was the last time God literally turning the earth upside down? No human could survive such a cataclysmic event. This is why I place this even between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 when there was "no man" (Adam.)

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the LORD said,
The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black:
Because I have spoken it, I have purposed it,
And will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
Jer. 4:23–28.

It was never the plan of God to allow fallen angels interaction with man. When there were angels there was no man. When there was man there were no angels. The angels that sinned are locked up and they didn't sin with human women. They were created sinful and for God's purposes "iniquity was found in them" and God immediately delivered them in chains of darkness. How the angels that did NOT sin remained separated and 'protected' Scripture does not say. OR, maybe all the angels were created sinful and locked up, and the apparitions of angels are the very Word of God possessing a material substance in a material world. Maybe all these "angels" are Christophanies. Maybe "messengers" are the message themselves. Isn't it God's Word that goes out and does not return to Him void? These are mysteries of God. But what is revealed belongs to "us" and our children. Why? So that we may DO ALL the Words of His Torah Law. I grew up on Gentile theology. But when I come across a passage of Scripture that contradicts what Gentile theology that's out there, I choose God's Word even if I may not fully understand it at the time. I don't reject God's Word or explain it away to keep Gentile theology. To do that is to oppose God. And in my Christianity, I DO NOT OPPOSE God. Unlike many here that do. Look at your theology. You say "sons of God" are angels. Sinning angels. Jesus said angels do not marry and yet these sons of God (your angels) married. Resolve this conflict. I'd rather take Jesus' words that angels do not marry than an interpretation that says they did. Do you take Jesus' Word or lean upon your own understanding in the vanity of your mind? It's obvious you reject Jesus' words that angels do not marry to maintain an interpretation that says they did (if they were angels but sons of God are MEN.

How about the next two verses? "
27 For this is what the Lord says:
“The whole land shall be a desolation,
Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
28 For this the earth will mourn,
And the heavens above will become dark,
Because I have spoken, I have purposed,
And I have not [o]changed My mind, nor will I turn from it.”

You really need to read II Timothy 2:15 and follow it. The whole chapter is about Judah. It is prophecy. Notice that it says that the heavens above will become dark. A continuation of the verses you put. Context is key.

Dark as in darkness in the face of the deep. How deep is space? How dark is space? Even if there were suns and stars and there are trillions of stars burning hydrogen into helium and making heat and light and yet space is dark.
Prophecy is past, p[resent, and future just as Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever and all prophecy centers around Him.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jeremiah five believes that God created Satan as a sinner, as well as Adam and Eve. They were never sinless.

Isaiah says, "There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE."
In order to maintain Adam and the woman were created holy, righteous, or sinless, you have to violate what Isaiah says above. And that's what you do. You denigrate God into the image of man.
So, anything God creates will be sinful, or as the word is defined by Strong, "missing the mark." What is the "mark"? The "mark" is the glory of God or the glory that is God.
In order to maintain Adam and the woman were created holy, righteous, and sinless, and yet they sinned is to hold and believe that sin comes from holy, righteous, and sinless. How ignorantly stupid is that!
There is a first Adam and a last Adam. The first Adam if created sinless sinned. Thus, sin comes from sinlessness.
The last Adam (Christ) was holy, righteous, and sinless and He did not sin. That's what is to be expected from a holy, righteous, sinless being. They DON'T sin. But Adam sinned. Was he REALLY holy, righteous, sinless? He can't be because sin does not come from sinlessness. And God cannot reduplicate Himself. There is ONLY ONE GOD. Hello? God is Self-contained. There is NONE like Him. But to believe Adam was sinless is to believe there is someone like Him and it's not the Son or the Holy Spirit. It is man. You've elevated man to God status and yet without all the other Deific nature or Attributes of God. If Adam possessed even one deific nature or attribute of God then think a minute here, genius, he would have to possess ALL the deific nature and attributes of God including omniscience, omnipotence, etc., or he falls short of God's glory of who God is.
Why the mental block?

His definition of unfallen is completely different then yours. (As is his definition of fallen.) They were sinners from the moment they were created. (No they weren't).

Before the man and woman disobeyed God and ate from the tree, they had already sinned by adding to God's word ("Neither shall ye touch it") and there is a prohibition against doing that in Proverbs 30:6. They were liars and lying is a sin. They were sinners before the false belief of a "Fall" and eating from the tree. If Adam was sinless then you must believe God reduplicated, copied, gave His sinless nature to dirt.

He says that sinlessness is God's glory, therefore nothing/no one can ever be sinless. He doesn't understand that sinless is God's NATURE.

Nature is actually possessive. Glory is descriptive of God's nature. Make distinction.

So Adam and Eve can be sinless, though the ability to fall is part of their nature, while not a part of God's nature.

So, you believe sin comes from sinlessness.
Question: God is sinless. How long before God sin since you believe sin comes from sinlessness.
Stupid belief!

(God can't sin. Whatever God does, no matter what that is, by definition is not a sin. He is the standard, so whatever He does is the standard. It is His nature.

Yes, He is the "mark" that all creation is judged against.
There is ONLY ONE God.
There is NONE like Him.
He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Believing these this as biblical truth, tell me, what is the 'make up' of the man called Adam?
Sinful. Missing the mark" of the glory of God.
The word for that is "sin."

 

[jeremiah1five]

The description is in an un-fallen state in Ezekiel.

No, it's just that sin wasn't FOUND IN HIM yet.
It was always there.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jeremiah five gets a lot wrong.

jeremiah1five is a thinker who's learned that Gentile theology has a great deal wrong with it and he's his own man to hold to Scripture and does not hold to something when a passage opposes it.

 

[TMSO]

What? You can't conceive of the planet being inhabited before man? Angels (spirit-beings) had ministry on the planet. There were cities as it clearly says. Genesis says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
Finished. Complete. Done. Either in one word or in time. It doesn't say. But it does say God created the heaven and the earth.
BUT
The earth was without form, and void, and darkness upon the face of the deep.
Since God does not create 'things' void, without form, and in darkness, something happened to the planet - maybe the whole universe - that rendered it in that condition. In believe Isaiah reveals something of that time:

1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste,
And turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isaiah 24:1.

The LORD "maketh" the earth empty, waste, and turned it upside down, and scattered the inhabitants. If the inhabitants are angels, then they flew the coop.

"maketh" [Strong's #1238] a primitive root; to pour out, i.e. to empty, figurative to depopulate; by analogy to spread out (as a fruitful vine.)

When was the last time God literally turning the earth upside down? No human could survive such a cataclysmic event. This is why I place this even between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 when there was "no man" (Adam.)

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
And all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
And all the cities thereof were broken down
At the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the LORD said,
The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black:
Because I have spoken it, I have purposed it,
And will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
Jer. 4:23–28.

It was never the plan of God to allow fallen angels interaction with man. When there were angels there was no man. When there was man there were no angels. The angels that sinned are locked up and they didn't sin with human women. They were created sinful and for God's purposes "iniquity was found in them" and God immediately delivered them in chains of darkness. How the angels that did NOT sin remained separated and 'protected' Scripture does not say. OR, maybe all the angels were created sinful and locked up, and the apparitions of angels are the very Word of God possessing a material substance in a material world. Maybe all these "angels" are Christophanies. Maybe "messengers" are the message themselves. Isn't it God's Word that goes out and does not return to Him void? These are mysteries of God. But what is revealed belongs to "us" and our children. Why? So that we may DO ALL the Words of His Torah Law. I grew up on Gentile theology. But when I come across a passage of Scripture that contradicts what Gentile theology that's out there, I choose God's Word even if I may not fully understand it at the time. I don't reject God's Word or explain it away to keep Gentile theology. To do that is to oppose God. And in my Christianity, I DO NOT OPPOSE God. Unlike many here that do. Look at your theology. You say "sons of God" are angels. Sinning angels. Jesus said angels do not marry and yet these sons of God (your angels) married. Resolve this conflict. I'd rather take Jesus' words that angels do not marry than an interpretation that says they did. Do you take Jesus' Word or lean upon your own understanding in the vanity of your mind? It's obvious you reject Jesus' words that angels do not marry to maintain an interpretation that says they did (if they were angels but sons of God are MEN.

Dark as in darkness in the face of the deep. How deep is space? How dark is space? Even if there were suns and stars and there are trillions of stars burning hydrogen into helium and making heat and light and yet space is dark.
Prophecy is past, p[resent, and future just as Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever and all prophecy centers around Him.

I am done. You were the one who said Jesus is another god. (You said you are a son of God, and Jesus is a son of God. With Jesus however, that would make Him a god, unless He was already God. Why? Two humans get together, and the offspring is... human. A son of man, hence many last names meaning "son of..." If Jesus is a son of God, and not THE Son of God, God in the flesh, then Jesus must be a second god. He was clear to Mary when He said that the child in her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The end result would be... a god, would it not?

However, Jesus is God, a part of the Godhead. God is one Being made up of three Persons, coeternal and coexisting. They are all 100% God. Title does not change the fact of who He is. For instance, a son is subortinate to their father, but it doesn't make them any less human. They are still on equal footing in that understanding. They are equally human. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equally God. It is difficult to understand because God is beyond our understanding. Just as chicken is beyond the understanding of a lifelong vegan. They don't understand what you are saying when you say "tastes just like chicken." They have no shared experience. God has presented Himself as a Godhead of three persons. This is the point where, due to lack of shared experience and knowledge, we tell God "We'll take Your word for it."

 

[TMSO]

Isaiah says, "There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE."

Yes, hence Jesus is not a second god, but it is God. There is only one. The trinity. God is ONE Being, made up of three coexisting and coetneral PERSONS. Identities. Yet, they are ONE as God. Perfect fellowship and communion.

In order to maintain Adam and the woman were created holy, righteous, or sinless, you have to violate what Isaiah says above. And that's what you do. You denigrate God into the image of man.

No, no I don't. I just wonder where you get the idea that Adam and teh woman were created holy and righteous? They were sinless, because that means they have not sinned. Why do you believe God's creation was defective, which would mean He is defective? One creates from one's nature. Adam and Eve were created INNOCENT. What that means is that they were sinless, and that they did not know right and wrong. They had no knowledge of evil. There sin was disobeying the only Law God gave them. The only standard God set up for them. Do not eat of this specific tree. When they did, then their eyes were open and they knew what evil was. Disobeying God and missing His standard/mark.

So, anything God creates will be sinful, or as the word is defined by Strong, "missing the mark." What is the "mark"? The "mark" is the glory of God or the glory that is God.

No. That is absolutely not true. The mark is defined specifically as... the standard. In archery it is a bullseye. If you miss the bullseye, then you have sinned, that is you missed the mark/standard. And if you want to understand how salvation is not by works to earn salvation, there is nothing you can do after missing the bullseye to get a perfect score. It's impossible. It doesn't matter if every shot afterward is a bullseye. You won't get that perfect score, unless that miss was "forgiven" and removed.

In order to maintain Adam and the woman were created holy, righteous, and sinless, and yet they sinned is to hold and believe that sin comes from holy, righteous, and sinless. How ignorantly stupid is that!
There is a first Adam and a last Adam. The first Adam if created sinless sinned. Thus, sin comes from sinlessness.
The last Adam (Christ) was holy, righteous, and sinless and He did not sin. That's what is to be expected from a holy, righteous, sinless being. They DON'T sin. But Adam sinned. Was he REALLY holy, righteous, sinless? He can't be because sin does not come from sinlessness. And God cannot reduplicate Himself. There is ONLY ONE GOD. Hello? God is Self-contained. There is NONE like Him. But to believe Adam was sinless is to believe there is someone like Him and it's not the Son or the Holy Spirit. It is man. You've elevated man to God status and yet without all the other Deific nature or Attributes of God. If Adam possessed even one deific nature or attribute of God then think a minute here, genius, he would have to possess ALL the deific nature and attributes of God including omniscience, omnipotence, etc., or he falls short of God's glory of who God is.
Why the mental block?

Adam was sinless until he sinned. I mean, that is like common sense. A man is single... until they get married. A man is a good person in the eyes of the law until they break the law. (The law, as in human law.) So, Adam was sinless until he missed the bullseye. He had a perfect score until he disobeyed the only Law God gave to him. Don't eat that fruit.

Before the man and woman disobeyed God and ate from the tree, they had already sinned by adding to God's word ("Neither shall ye touch it") and there is a prohibition against doing that in Proverbs 30:6. They were liars and lying is a sin. They were sinners before the false belief of a "Fall" and eating from the tree. If Adam was sinless then you must believe God reduplicated, copied, gave His sinless nature to dirt.

Where did they sin? Where did God tell them that His standard is that they don't add to His word? The only command, the only Law Adam was given was, don't eat of the tree. You yourself are adding to scripture here. There is a reason why the fall is also known as the fall from innocence, or innocence lost.

Nature is actually possessive. Glory is descriptive of God's nature. Make distinction.

Glory is not descriptive of God's nature. Glory in religious terms is "praise, worship, and thanksgiving offered to a deity". In this case praise, worship and thanksgiving to God. Glory is a noun not an adjective.

So, you believe sin comes from sinlessness.
Question: God is sinless. How long before God sin since you believe sin comes from sinlessness.
Stupid belief!

No. I believe in common sense and rationality. If one has no sin, they are sinless. If they sin, then, by all rules of common sense, they are not longer sinless. The archer who keeps hitting the bullseye is "sinless". The moment he misses the bullseye, he is no longer "sinless" and no longer has a perfect score. Don't tell me that hitting the bullseye is what caused the archer to miss?

Yes, He is the "mark" that all creation is judged against.
There is ONLY ONE God.
There is NONE like Him.
He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Believing these this as biblical truth, tell me, what is the 'make up' of the man called Adam?
Sinful. Missing the mark" of the glory of God.
The word for that is "sin."

So, easy way to deflate this. You say He is the mark that all creation is judged against. There is only one God. Therefore there should only be one human. For there to be more than one human means we missed the mark. Also, if there is more then one of each animal. However, that means God commanded them to sin, because He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply.

The mark that we miss is God's perfection, not that we don't glow in the dark surrounded by glory, praise, and honor. Sin is to miss the mark. In archery that is the bullseye. In view of God, it is failing to meet the standard of His Law.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I am done. You were the one who said Jesus is another god.

Yes, when you elevate Saul to God status with the authority of changing Scripture to include Gentiles, yes, that would be a God move, but not even the God of Abraham of His Christ as God have any authority or power to change Scripture. But by your interpretation - not with any passage from the bible - but by your false interpretation of the bible like the Mormons and JW's come up with an interpretation that contradicts clear passages from the OT.

(You said you are a son of God, and Jesus is a son of God.

Son of God, child of God, daughter of the Lord. I AM a son of God and as a son the Holy Spirit in me crying "Abba, Abba."

With Jesus however, that would make Him a god, unless He was already God. Why? Two humans get together, and the offspring is... human. A son of man, hence many last names meaning "son of..." If Jesus is a son of God, and not THE Son of God, God in the flesh, then Jesus must be a second god. He was clear to Mary when He said that the child in her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. The end result would be... a god, would it not?

However, Jesus is God, a part of the Godhead. God is one Being made up of three Persons, coeternal and coexisting. They are all 100% God. Title does not change the fact of who He is. For instance, a son is subortinate to their father, but it doesn't make them any less human. They are still on equal footing in that understanding. They are equally human. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equally God. It is difficult to understand because God is beyond our understanding. Just as chicken is beyond the understanding of a lifelong vegan. They don't understand what you are saying when you say "tastes just like chicken." They have no shared experience. God has presented Himself as a Godhead of three persons. This is the point where, due to lack of shared experience and knowledge, we tell God "We'll take Your word for it."

Keep your heresy. I grow weary of repeating myself to people who can't read.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes, hence Jesus is not a second god, but it is God. There is only one. The trinity. God is ONE Being, made up of three coexisting and coetneral PERSONS. Identities. Yet, they are ONE as God. Perfect fellowship and communion.

No, no I don't. I just wonder where you get the idea that Adam and teh woman were created holy and righteous? They were sinless, because that means they have not sinned. Why do you believe God's creation was defective, which would mean He is defective? One creates from one's nature. Adam and Eve were created INNOCENT. What that means is that they were sinless, and that they did not know right and wrong. They had no knowledge of evil. There sin was disobeying the only Law God gave them. The only standard God set up for them. Do not eat of this specific tree. When they did, then their eyes were open and they knew what evil was. Disobeying God and missing His standard/mark.

No. That is absolutely not true. The mark is defined specifically as... the standard. In archery it is a bullseye. If you miss the bullseye, then you have sinned, that is you missed the mark/standard. And if you want to understand how salvation is not by works to earn salvation, there is nothing you can do after missing the bullseye to get a perfect score. It's impossible. It doesn't matter if every shot afterward is a bullseye. You won't get that perfect score, unless that miss was "forgiven" and removed.

Adam was sinless until he sinned. I mean, that is like common sense. A man is single... until they get married. A man is a good person in the eyes of the law until they break the law. (The law, as in human law.) So, Adam was sinless until he missed the bullseye. He had a perfect score until he disobeyed the only Law God gave to him. Don't eat that fruit.

Where did they sin? Where did God tell them that His standard is that they don't add to His word? The only command, the only Law Adam was given was, don't eat of the tree. You yourself are adding to scripture here. There is a reason why the fall is also known as the fall from innocence, or innocence lost.

Glory is not descriptive of God's nature. Glory in religious terms is "praise, worship, and thanksgiving offered to a deity". In this case praise, worship and thanksgiving to God. Glory is a noun not an adjective.

No. I believe in common sense and rationality. If one has no sin, they are sinless. If they sin, then, by all rules of common sense, they are not longer sinless. The archer who keeps hitting the bullseye is "sinless". The moment he misses the bullseye, he is no longer "sinless" and no longer has a perfect score. Don't tell me that hitting the bullseye is what caused the archer to miss?

So, easy way to deflate this. You say He is the mark that all creation is judged against. There is only one God. Therefore there should only be one human. For there to be more than one human means we missed the mark. Also, if there is more then one of each animal. However, that means God commanded them to sin, because He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply.

The mark that we miss is God's perfection, not that we don't glow in the dark surrounded by glory, praise, and honor. Sin is to miss the mark. In archery that is the bullseye. In view of God, it is failing to meet the standard of His Law.