When is the Tribulation period?

[Arial]

That is a rather blurred translation. A more accurate translation is "...those things that are about to take place after this." This was future events that were imminent and also "at hand" in the time John was writing

It isn't so much blurred as it does not suit your theory as well as the other does.

The question is, have all those things taken place and did they while John was alive? Or shortly after his death. How long a period of time is "at hand?" Two years? Two days? Three months? Hmmm?

God defines for us exactly what He meant by a prophecy being "at hand" in Ezekiel 12:21-28. An "at hand" prophecy would NOT be "prolonged" into "times that are far off". Instead, "at hand" prophecies would be fulfilled "in YOUR days" for the ones initially receiving that prophecy for the first time. God would not only speak the words of that "at hand" prophecy, but He would also perform them in that same time frame.

God's definition of what He meant by an "at hand" prophecy did not change from Ezekiel's time to mean something different in John's days. What John was seeing about those future events that were "about to take place after this" was something his own generation would see in THEIR days. Those "at hand" prophecies revealed in Revelation would NOT be "prolonged" into "times that are far off", such as our days.

That is so full of logical fallacies and incorrect methods of interpreting scripture---pure eisegesis---that I am not taking the time to set it right. Make of that what you will.

When John gave us the key for interpreting his visions in the very first chapter introduction (Revelation 1:3) and then repeated those same comments in the very last concluding remarks (Revelation 22:10), we are not at liberty to twist God's "at hand" definition to suit our own perceptions of what should or shouldn't have happened back in the time John was writing.

You failed to present the "key". The key to understanding Rev is to read and interpret it according to the type of literature it is. It is apocalyptic prophecy.Characterised by symbolic language. John tells us this in 1:1 The revelation (semaino) of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show His servants things which shortly must take place. And He sent and signified (semaino) it by His angel to His servant John.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The question is, have all those things taken place and did they while John was alive? Or shortly after his death. How long a period of time is "at hand?" Two years? Two days? Three months? Hmmm?

Everything in Revelation is history except for the sealed-up prophecies reserved for later times that the 7 thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4, which John was forbidden to write down.

"At hand" prophecies by God's definition in Ezekiel 12:21-28 take place in the days of those getting that prophecy first-hand. Any "at hand" prophecies are not only spoken by God, but they are also performed in the days of those who are given those prophecies. They are NOT "prolonged" into "times that are far off". That means John's immediate audience who received those letters and John's visions saw those "at hand" prophecies of the future fulfilled in their own lifetime. It's God's terminology, not mine.

You failed to present the "key". The key to understanding Rev is to read and interpret it according to the type of literature it is. It is apocalyptic prophecy.Characterised by symbolic language. John tells us this in 1:1 The revelation (semaino) of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show His servants things which shortly must take place. And He sent and signified (semaino) it by His angel to His servant John.

I'm certainly not denying the apocalyptic nature of John's visions. But there are also practical warnings included for the believers, especially in the letters to the 7 churches. When an author tells you point blank in his introduction as well as his conclusion just what time he is assigning to the events of his book - whether or not those events are couched in apocalyptic language - then the reader is to abide by those time restrictions. John used varying terms to describe how soon those events would transpire, so that there would be no doubt that he was speaking of his own generation which would experience those "at hand" events. It's the same thing when reading a map. If you get the compass turned upside down, you will never arrive at your destination.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So the second coming "soon" (Rev 22:7, 12, 20) has already happened in that generation?

Yes, that is what Paul, Peter, Jude, Christ, Luke, Matthew, Hebrews, and John etc. all taught unanimously. We are not waiting for the second coming at present. We are waiting on Christ's third bodily coming and the third bodily resurrection event.

 

[sawdust]

The OP isn't really about Matt 24 but the tribulation John spoke of in Rev.

The OP is about linking the tribulation John was experiencing to the Tribulation, also known as the Great Tribulation, a period of time in which Jesus said would be the worst time in all of history. For this reason, Matthew 24 is very relevant as it speaks of tribulation and the Tribulation period and teaches us when that latter period would occur.

Therefore in order for the OP's statement to stand, he would have to prove John was writing within the period known as the Great Tribulation which is a period commonly to be understood as the last half of Daniel's 70th week, from the time of the desecration of the Temple until it is razed to the ground.

However "those days" can also be reverting back to 4-8 "the beginning of sorrows."
But the fall of Jerusalem was a judgement by God.

I am not a Greek scholar but I am 99.9% sure the language of verse 21 cannot refer back to the tribulation of verse 9 but is specific to the tribulation of the fall of the Temple beginning with it's desolation.

That does not preclude that the church experiences tribulation, and has, since the resurrection, and will until His return.

I've never said the Church is precluded from tribulation.

You are simply restricting Matt 24 to be a teaching solely on end times and trying to identify its parts.

No, I am restricting verse 21 of Matt 24 to it's subject within the text which, is the destruction of the Temple. I have not argued whether that is the destruction in 70AD or whether it is yet to occur. I see that as irrelevant to the point of my argument at this stage.

I specifically asked you about the timing of the Great Tribulation back in post#66 which you responded to in post#67 saying your saw the period as the time between the first and second coming of Christ and you also saw it getting worse.

I believe Matt.24 disagrees with you.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, that is what Paul, Peter, Jude, Christ, Luke, Matthew, Hebrews, and John etc. all taught unanimously. We are not waiting for the second coming at present. We are waiting on Christ's third bodily coming and the third bodily resurrection event.

So the second coming events of

the moon not giving its light, the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken (Mt 24:29),
Jesus' coming down from heaven (1 Th 4:16), appearing in the sky,
all nations of the earth mourning as they see him on the clouds of the sky,
with power and great glory, sending his angels with a loud trumpet call (Mt 24:30-31),
and with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, the dead rise,
the risen elect along with the ones who are still alive at the resurrection are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air at the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), where
the angels gather them from the four winds, from one end of heavens to the other (Mt 24:31). . .

having already occurred, is any of that racket, those cosmic events or earthly upheavals found in the historical record anywhere?

And while all the dead of the earth were resurrected, and the elect were raptured in their glorified bodies,
what about the resurrected non-elect?
What happened to them?

 

[Arial]

I specifically asked you about the timing of the Great Tribulation back in post#66 which you responded to in post#67 saying your saw the period as the time between the first and second coming of Christ and you also saw it getting worse.

And as I said the Great Tribulation is a construct. The scripture says there will be great tribulation.. We have always been in tribulation and sometimes and some places great tribulation for the ones in it. There was great tribulation for the Jews and believing Gentiles in 70 a.d. As I said. That does not mean there will not be a further fulfilling of it. I don't think you will be satisfied with anything I say until I agree with the answer you already have in your head.
No one knows the timing so why are you asking me?

 

[Arial]

"At hand" prophecies by God's definition in Ezekiel 12:21-28 take place in the days of those getting that prophecy first-hand. Any "at hand" prophecies are not only spoken by God, but they are also performed in the days of those who are given those prophecies. They are NOT "prolonged" into "times that are far off". That means John's immediate audience who received those letters and John's visions saw those "at hand" prophecies of the future fulfilled in their own lifetime. It's God's terminology, not mine.

That is a patently false conclusion. Verse 28 says "none of My words will be postponed anymore" and yet many were and are. There is no basis to carry these verses into the "at hand" in Revelation. None. A day is as a thousand years to the Lord and a thousand years as a day. Time is not a boundary God resides in.

I'm certainly not denying the apocalyptic nature of John's visions. But there are also practical warnings included for the believers, especially in the letters to the 7 churches. When an author tells you point blank in his introduction as well as his conclusion just what time he is assigning to the events of his book - whether or not those events are couched in apocalyptic language - then the reader is to abide by those time restrictions. John used varying terms to describe how soon those events would transpire, so that there would be no doubt that he was speaking of his own generation which would experience those "at hand" events. It's the same thing when reading a map. If you get the compass turned upside down, you will never arrive at your destination.

Then of what value is the book to us today and why did God see that we have it? Some of the things John wrote were happening then---particularity when he gives a specific address to the seven churches. Some of them are happening now and have also happened in the past, and some have not happened yet and no one knows when they will.

And reading it a a puzzle to solve rather than its greater correlation to a picture book, we are apt to miss its purpose, both for those who received the letter and to all future Christians. Chapter 1:9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus--- The tribulation was the persecution of the church and her people that was being experienced then and has been in one place or another and one time or another ever since, and will become, I believe, worldwide. John was writing to them and by extension us, to endure in the faith no matter what. He wrote to encourage them as they, and by extension us, were being bombarded by both the surrounding culture and national powers, and were losing hope and strength to stand against it.

To say it was near is simply to say, no one knows when the King will return, so be prepared and stand strong in the faith

 

[3 Resurrections]

So the second coming events of

the moon not giving its light, the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken (Mt 24:29),
Jesus' coming down from heaven (1 Th 4:16), appearing in the sky,
all nations of the earth mourning as they see him on the clouds of the sky,
with power and great glory, sending his angels with a loud trumpet call (Mt 24:30-31),
and with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, the dead rise,
the risen elect along with the ones who are still alive at the resurrection are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air at the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), where
the angels gather them from the four winds, from one end of heavens to the other (Mt 24:31). . .

having already occurred, is any of that racket, those cosmic events or earthly upheavals found in the historical record anywhere?

A glorified Christ bodily returning to the Mount of Olives was going to be seen by the "tribes of the earth" at Jerusalem. John was quoting Zechariah 12:10-14, which spoke of the tribes of Israel doing that mourning. Zechariah even gave some specific families from Israel's tribes that were doing that mourning. Scripture never said everyone on the entire globe would simultaneously see that coming. It was specifically going to be "every eye" of those who pierced Him that would see that bodily return to the Mount of Olives.

The trumpet call and the voice of the archangel's command was for the dead to hear - not the living. Job 14:14-15 spoke of this. "If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands."

The scriptures never speak of the living (who haven't died yet) being changed by a translation in order to be raptured. No one gets off this planet without dying the one appointed time, as Hebrews 9:27 stipulates. Not even in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 where that "change" is ONLY for the bodies of dead believers.

The "sun being darkened", the "moon not giving her light", the "stars falling", and the "powers of the heavens being shaken" was the same thing which Hebrews 12:26-27 wrote about. God had "NOW" promised (in the days Hebrews was written) to shake not only the earth, but also heaven, in order to remove the things which could be shaken, and to leave the unshaken kingdom of God in place. That puts a first-century time stamp on those events.

Those who were the direct eye-witnesses of Christ's return were the besieged occupants inside the city of Jerusalem on Pentecost day in AD 70. The Christians had already obeyed Christ's warning and fled to Pella and other locations to wait out the war. So they were not the eye-witnesses of this event. By the close of AD 70, those eye-witnesses inside the besieged city of Jerusalem were taken captive to die in Roman arenas, a Roman triumph, the mines, in slavery, etc. Even for those who were literate and had the materials to make a document, would their captors have preserved it for them?

Suppose the Israelites' captors had preserved such a document. Does that mean that document survived to modern times without being purged by a book-burning somewhere by those hostile to Christ? Could such a document still be unearthed today and come to light for our inspection? Possibly. There are digs currently going on in the Old City section of Jerusalem that may yet yield such physical evidence for you. But I have already mentioned the dislodged earthquake rubble material lying in a 40' deep layer in the Kidron Valley from a first century earthquake; a layer which extends as far as Azal, which Zechariah 14:4-5 in the LXX had predicted would happen at Christ's bodily return. This is physical evidence that Christ bodily came and left from that Mount of Olives location already.

what about the resurrected non-elect?
What happened to them?

They perished, as Christ promised, in a "resurrection to damnation". The souls of the wicked dead standing before God without the vicarious covering of Christ's righteousness are judged and then destroyed by God's presence of consuming fire. They are never reunited with a changed body form such as all the elect eventually experience. There is no such thing as eternal conscious torment for the wicked. There is only their fate of being destroyed, body and soul in a judgment. Their physical bodies are left to disintegrate in the dust of the grave.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That is a patently false conclusion. Verse 28 says "none of My words will be postponed anymore" and yet many were and are.

The "words" God was speaking of in Ezekiel 12 were the prophecy He had just given the Israelites that would be fulfilled in their own days concerning the cities being laid waste and the land being made desolate. They did not believe Him. They were telling themselves that God's vision for them was for "many days to come" and for times that were "far off". God told them otherwise. He said the days for His prophecy for them were "at hand" and that none of his words describing the nation's destruction would be "prolonged". In their own days, God was speaking the words of that prophecy, and also "in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word AND will perform it." That is the nature of an "at hand" prophecy. It is NOT delayed beyond the immediate time frame of the days in which is is first given.

A day is as a thousand years to the Lord and a thousand years as a day. Time is not a boundary God resides in.

I have often heard this verse similarly misinterpreted. All it means is that God's promise regarding a prophecy given a thousand years in advance is just as surely fulfilled as a prophecy given a single day in advance of its fulfillment. God can be counted on to faithfully keep His word regardless of how far in advance a prophecy is given.

Then of what value is the book to us today and why did God see that we have it?

Of what value is a fulfilled record of the crucifixion of Christ? Of what value is any fulfilled prophecy in scripture? "These things were written before for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." It only bolsters my faith in God and the hope of the third future resurrection event in our future to know that God has already fulfilled the first two resurrection events described in scripture - and precisely on the very days He predicted for them in the prophets and in the OT patterns of scripture.

 

[sawdust]

And as I said the Great Tribulation is a construct. The scripture says there will be great tribulation.. We have always been in tribulation and sometimes and some places great tribulation for the ones in it. There was great tribulation for the Jews and believing Gentiles in 70 a.d. As I said. That does not mean there will not be a further fulfilling of it. I don't think you will be satisfied with anything I say until I agree with the answer you already have in your head.
No one knows the timing so why are you asking me?

It's not the answer I have in my head nor have I asked you to place the timing of it within the context of history. I am looking at what scripture is saying and comparing it to what you have said. I see Jesus saying there will be a tribulation that is like no other tribulation in all of human history. Believers have come to know this period as the Great Tribulation. I fail to see how you attribute this to all tribulation between the first and second advent when Jesus lines it up with the fall of Jerusalem and the desecration and razing of the Temple and there will never be another time like it. When this period will occur was never my question nor am I arguing for a particular time in history. My argument contends that the Great Tribulation can only occur at the same time of Jerusalem's fall and it will only happen once not as you contend that it is ongoing and can happen any and all times during the first and second advent or that it will get progressively worse.

You disagree, I see that , but not with me. I have simply tried to show what the scripture says.

You have a nice day.

 

[Arial]

I have often heard this verse similarly misinterpreted. All it means is that God's promise regarding a prophecy given a thousand years in advance is just as surely fulfilled as a prophecy given a single day in advance of its fulfillment. God can be counted on to faithfully keep His word regardless of how far in advance a prophecy is given.

And you are saying that if he says a certain thing in a certain way, "AT HAND! it means in the lifetime of those hearing it. Just because He said it in Ez and John says it in Rev. Ludicrous.

Of what value is a fulfilled record of the crucifixion of Christ? Of what value is any fulfilled prophecy in scripture? "These things were written before for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." It only bolsters my faith in God and the hope of the third future resurrection event in our future to know that God has already fulfilled the first two resurrection events described in scripture - and precisely on the very days He predicted for them in the prophets and in the OT patterns of scripture.

Please continue to miss points, to not consider anything another says, and repeat yourself. If you are here when the latter things of John do come to pass I pray you are prepared to endure.

 

[Arial]

The "words" God was speaking of in Ezekiel 12 were the prophecy He had just given the Israelites that would be fulfilled in their own days concerning the cities being laid waste and the land being made desolate.

Give me the timeline of the prophecy being spoken and its fulfillment. Ezekiel was in Babylon when he wrote the book.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Give me the timeline of the prophecy being spoken and its fulfillment. Ezekiel was in Babylon when he wrote the book.

Yes, he was. But there were a number of deportations under Babylon, weren't there? First of all the "good figs" in 607 BC, such as Daniel and the nobility of Jerusalem (probably including Ezekiel of the priestly class), and later the "bad figs" as God called them - so bad they could not be eaten. The days for those prophecies to be fulfilled were truly "at hand" and presently in the process of taking place for the people of Israel, contrary to their expectations.

And you are saying that if he says a certain thing in a certain way, "AT HAND! it means in the lifetime of those hearing it. Just because He said it in Ez and John says it in Rev. Ludicrous.

Why is it "ludicrous" for God to be consistent with the way He defines an "at hand" prophecy in Ezekiel's days as well as in John's days? The meaning of that language had not changed in the interim.

Please continue to miss points, to not consider anything another says, and repeat yourself. If you are here when the latter things of John do come to pass I pray you are prepared to endure.

I have prayed that my senior years will last long enough to see the events developing according to scriptural pattern for the next 7th millennium which is coming in 2033. This year I believe is the beginning of the seventh millennium of fallen man's history on this planet. From our perspective now at the closing years of the sixth millennium we are about to enter a type of "Sabbath" millennium when the world at large will sink into a sort of fallow mode across the board, preparatory to Christ's return at the close of this rapidly-approaching 7th millennium of history.

I am afraid my grandchildren are not prepared for the tumult which is in their immediate future and what is going to take place before that transition to the 7th millennium occurs. None of that tumult coming in our generation will be composed of Revelation's predictions, which were all fulfilled long ago. However, I still want to remain alive long enough to be a witness of hope to my grands that God has a particular design and a goal that He is working towards, regardless of how tough it will get for these kids. They will need a spiritual anchor, and I want to be a voice testifying of this as long as I can.

 

[CrowCross]

Satan is not captured and chained at present. He's dead. Along with all his devils and unclean spirits. Just as God had announced would happen as well as where that would happen.

Better yet...Satan would have you believe you he's dead.

What's so complicated about that? All of Revelation is a history book (with some really ancient history included), with the exception of the sealed-up prophecies of Revelation 10:4 concerning times that would follow AD 70 - including our times. Nothing complicated at all about this.

 

[Eleanor]

The scriptures never speak of the living (who haven't died yet) being changed by a translation in order to be raptured.

And therein is the problem with the false theology of a third coming, ignorance of NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.

1 Co 15:51 - "We will not all sleep (die), but we will all be changed."

 

[Arial]

Yes, he was. But there were a number of deportations under Babylon, weren't there? First of all the "good figs" in 607 BC, such as Daniel and the nobility of Jerusalem (probably including Ezekiel of the priestly class), and later the "bad figs" as God called them - so bad they could not be eaten. The days for those prophecies to be fulfilled were truly "at hand" and presently in the process of taking place for the people of Israel, contrary to their expectations.

You did not give me the timeline. You filled your post up with deflections.

The "words" God was speaking of in Ezekiel 12 were the prophecy He had just given the Israelites that would be fulfilled in their own days concerning the cities being laid waste and the land being made desolate.

Give me the timeline of the prophecy being spoken and its fulfillment.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You did not give me the timeline. You filled your post up with deflections.

There were three deportations to Babylon of Judah's citizens. Ezekiel was a priest, and so was considered one of Jerusalem's elite class included in the first deportation. While in captivity in Babylon, Ezekiel was given visions and prophecies by God in the fifth year of King Jehoiachin's captivity that God would destroy Jerusalem and that siege conditions in the city would result in cannibalism before the city and the temple were burned. A third would die of pestilence and famine in the city, a third would fall by the sword, and a third part would be scattered to the winds with a sword drawn out against them. The cities of the nations would be laid waste in punishment of their idolatry. Only a small remnant would be preserved . This destruction of Jerusalem and its temple happened within Ezekiel's days in 586 BC, which means those prophecies God gave Ezekiel truly were "at hand" and would be fulfilled in his own days. They would not be "prolonged" for "times that are far off", which is what the captive Jews were claiming.

 

[TMSO]

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9.

Seems to me in Rev 1:9 John understood himself to be (presently) in the Tribulation.


Thoughts?

It says, companion in tribulation. It doesn't say companion in THE tribulation. Tribulation has many meanings. Times of persecution are tribulation. However, Jesus was clear in the Olivet discourse that there is a tribulation coming that will be unrivaled in the history of the world. There will be nothing worse that has occurred before, and nothing worse after. A Great Tribulation. And this world has seen a lot. Tribulation, almost wiped out by the black plague, etc. The tribulation that is coming has a lot to live up to, and beyond.

 

[Josheb]

It says, companion in tribulation. It doesn't say companion in THE tribulation. Tribulation has many meanings. Times of persecution are tribulation. However, Jesus was clear in the Olivet discourse that there is a tribulation coming that will be unrivaled in the history of the world. There will be nothing worse that has occurred before, and nothing worse after. A Great Tribulation. And this world has seen a lot. Tribulation, almost wiped out by the black plague, etc. The tribulation that is coming has a lot to live up to, and beyond.

Hair splitting, BUT the fact is Jesus explicitly stated the disciples would be handed over to tribulation and they needed to pray the events did not take place on a sabbath because immediately afterward those events would be "great tribulation" (Mt. 24:9, 21, 24) AND John explicitly stated the Church in Thyatira would go through "great tribulation" (Rev. 2:22). Most apparent ad unassailable, though, is Revelation 7's mention of "the great tribulation." In that passage it is stated that those wearing white robes are the ones surviving the great tribulation. The text explicitly states, "they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them."

Conclusion: The saints go through the great tribulation. Not just any generic tribulation, but the great one.

 

[TMSO]

Hair splitting, BUT the fact is Jesus explicitly stated the disciples would be handed over to tribulation and they needed to pray the events did not take place on a sabbath because immediately afterward those events would be "great tribulation" (Mt. 24:9, 21, 24) AND John explicitly stated the Church in Thyatira would go through "great tribulation" (Rev. 2:22). Most apparent ad unassailable, though, is Revelation 7's mention of "the great tribulation." In that passage it is stated that those wearing white robes are the ones surviving the great tribulation. The text explicitly states, "they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them."

It is not hair splitting. It is a very important point. Just as John says that there is the Antichrist, but that already there are antichrists out in the world. In the same way, there is tribulation in life and persecution, but there is also the great tribulation to come. This tribulation is such that if the time wasn't shortened, there would be no flesh left on Earth. (I don't remember any such population ending tribulation followed by Jesus returning and gathering up His elect, as in Matthew 24.)

Conclusion: The saints go through the great tribulation. Not just any generic tribulation, but the great one.

So God gladly pours out His wrath intended for those facing destruction onto His saints. Okay. Great.