When is the Tribulation period?

[3 Resurrections]

It is not hair splitting. It is a very important point. Just as John says that there is the Antichrist, but that already there are antichrists out in the world. In the same way, there is tribulation in life and persecution, but there is also the great tribulation to come. This tribulation is such that if the time wasn't shortened, there would be no flesh left on Earth. (I don't remember any such population ending tribulation followed by Jesus returning and gathering up His elect, as in Matthew 24.)

Remember for what reason the Great Tribulation days were going to be shortened. It was going to be shortened "for the elect's sake". That means the elect were present on earth during the days of that Great Tribulation.

You don't remember those days because they occurred in ancient history during the AD 66-70 years.

 

[Josheb]

It is not hair splitting. It is a very important point. Just as John says that there is the Antichrist, but that already there are antichrists out in the world. In the same way, there is tribulation in life and persecution, but there is also the great tribulation to come. This tribulation is such that if the time wasn't shortened, there would be no flesh left on Earth. (I don't remember any such population ending tribulation followed by Jesus returning and gathering up His elect, as in Matthew 24.)

Already addressed every point of that. Read this post HERE.

There is only ONE place in the entire Bible where the phrase "the great tribulation" is stated. One. Only one. It is not in Matthew 24. It's in Revelation 7.

Revelation 7:13-14
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Those who are clothed in white robes, who have washed their robes and made them white in Christ's blood go through the great tribulation. Christians go through the great tribulation. They are not raptured of the planet to escape the great tribulation; they go through it.

In Matthew 24:21 Jesus also reports disciples go through the "great tribulation."

Matthew 24:15-22
Therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The disciples would see it and those days were/would be cut short for the sake of the elect. If you scroll down about half-way in Post 22 of that other thread and additional content explaining how that text cannot be about a rapture is provided because in the days of Noah, the ones taken away were the ones destroyed.

Notice also that Mattew 24:21 says "a" great tribulation (not "the") and Revelation 7:14 states, "the" great tribulation. Yes, history is filled with episodes of tribulation, many of them recorded in the Bible. There is only one "THE" great tribulation and it is reported to occur in the context of,

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bondservants, the things which must quickly take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The events described were stated to be near to the time of John writing Revelation.

The only other place we find any mention of any "great tribulation" is in Revelation 2:2 and that great tribulation is one the Jezebel in the church in Thyatira suffers.

Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

So we find there is only one mention of THE great tribulation in one verse in one chapter of one book in the entire Bible. So let me ask you a question:

Do you think it is sound to create an entire doctrine based on a single mention of something found in only one verse in the Bible?

This tribulation is such that if the time wasn't shortened, there would be no flesh left on Earth.

That could be said of scores of tribulations that have happened in human history. If the Bubonic plague had not been shortened there would be no flesh left on earth. The same could be said of the Justinian plague, smallpox, or influenza. If WWII had not been shortened there would be no flesh left on the earth. If the flood hadn't been shortened no flesh would be left on earth.

The verse should not be read out of context. It cannot be read out of context without creating absurdity and bad doctrine.

So God gladly pours out His wrath intended for those facing destruction onto His saints. Okay. Great.

Glad we agree. It does nothing to resolve your prior hair-splitting but I'm glad we agree. Tribulations come in many forms in many ways at many times and there is nothing particularly prophetic about a tribulation unless specified occurs. When it comes to the notion of "THE great tribulation," there is only one and only one mention of it in the entire Bible. Since it neither exegetical nor rational to form any doctrine around any one single verse, it's not a good idea to form doctrine around Revelation 7:14.

Yet there is one eschatology far above all others that does so. It is called Dispensational Premillennialism, and it's an eschatology fraught with claims that do not reconcile with well-read, properly exegeted scripture. As the op points out, John considered himself to be in the midst of tribulation. If that is a reference to THE tribulation, he mentions later in chapter 7 then it was going on back then in the first century and not pending in the 21st.

 

[TMSO]

Remember for what reason the Great Tribulation days were going to be shortened. It was going to be shortened "for the elect's sake". That means the elect were present on earth during the days of that Great Tribulation.

You don't remember those days because they occurred in ancient history during the AD 66-70 years.

So, if it was so minor that everyone forgot, it could not have been the worst thing that has ever happened in the history of the world, or the future of the world. Also, Jesus was clear that at that time, He would return and gather His elect.

"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

This has not happened yet. Therefore the tribulation has not yet happened. See how easy that is? You know, Noah's flood is ancient history, but everyone knows about it. There are a few major events that people know about today, because they were major. Archaeology has been able to reconcile various major events in scripture. Some of them are missed solely because they don't actually have a proper calendar for ancient history, but use Egypt, whose ancient history is a big question mark. They say Israel was never there, but there is a city that has been discovered that more than fits what happened when Jacob and the Israelites went to Egypt. The problem is that Egyptologists have cemented an imperfect history that they will not change to allow for this. The Jews were in Egypt some centuries prior, which puts them at Jericho at the proper time. The Bible is vindicated.

And the way Jesus speaks of the tribulation: "21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short." What does it mean that the days will be cut short? It means that verse 29 above happens quickly, after a shortened tribulation. (Apparently if it lasted longer than 7 years, there would be nothing left.)

 

[Red Baker]

It is not hair splitting. It is a very important point. Just as John says that there is the Antichrist, but that already there are antichrists out in the world. In the same way, there is tribulation in life and persecution, but there is also the great tribulation to come.

I'm going to jump into this subject, since I think it is a very important subject to consider in our day in which we are now living. I may not have many more times to speak on this subject, since my days are coming to an end because of age, and while I still have a sound mind, ( that may be debatable by some ) I want to use it to spread the truth.

The Antichrist that shall come during the days of the tribulation spoken of by Daniel, first, then Christ, Paul and John is strictly spiritual in nature. I'll explain in this a few words, with much more coming later, the Lord willing. TMSO said:

This tribulation is such that if the time wasn't shortened, there would be no flesh left on Earth. (I don't remember any such population ending tribulation followed by Jesus returning and gathering up His elect, as in Matthew 24.)

As I said, the great tribulation is spiritual in nature not a literal time of war, where the population would kill itself away to nothing, but a time of hungering for TRUTH~a lack of bible truth being taught whereby, men and women have a true spiritual understanding of truth ~ in the latter days just before Christ's returns again, there will be a serious lack of spiritual bread of hearing the truth of the word of the Living God. Amos prophesied of this period that is yet to come in its fullness:

Amos 8:11~"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:"

TMSO said:

This tribulation is such that if the time wasn't shortened, there would be no flesh left on Earth

That is, saved with knowledge of the truth, truth is just about gone from this earth, with a few exceptions of God's elect in small numbers here and there and far apart from each other~the Mega churches are dens for a generation of serpents, and many small meetings places as well, very sad to say, but so true ~ and it must be said, to keep quiet is sinful.

Just as John says that there is the Antichrist, but that already there are antichrists out in the world.

TMSO, John did not say that there is the Antichrist, but he clearly said:

1st John 2:18~"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

"That antichrist shall come".....Antichrist that shall come, is the same as the man of sin, or, man of sin ~ and the same as the abomination that God will make desolate in his time! Antichrist is not one person but all men who forsake the testimony of God which is absolute truth, ( not religion so much ) over and above for their own doctrines and views of whom they think God should be based upon their own depraved hearts.

This antichrist wicked spirit will take over the churches of God/Christ in this world before it comes to its end! The man of sin will sit in the temple of God ( the professing churches of this world ) and declare that they are God, not verbally, for that would deceive no one, but by teaching doctrines and commandments for men to make their religion pliable for their lifestyle that are given over to. This is the message of Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; MArk 13 and Luke 21; 2nd Thess 2; 1st John 2:18 and Revelation 6-20, etc.

This period of great tribulation is Daniel little season, and will end in the destruction of this world. This period I'm firmly convince started to bud in and around 1850 when many false cult got their birth into this world. Some of them started around the same vicinity~The Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and the SDA. About this same time the world marketplaces was beginning to be flooded with so many versions of the scriptures in order to corrupt them and give their Christless hearers a bible under their arms that they could use to discredit God's word. The MOrmons have their, the Witnesses' have their, and other man of sin have created their.

No man know the hour of day of Christ's return back to gathered together his own, but of the signs of the seasons we are not in darkness concerning. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5, etc.

Matthew 24 is one of the best places to see just how close we may be for Christ's second coming.

3 Resurrection, 70 A.D. is not there it has to be force there which men like you try hard to do.

Later...RB

 

[TMSO]

Already addressed every point of that. Read this post HERE.

There is only ONE place in the entire Bible where the phrase "the great tribulation" is stated. One. Only one. It is not in Matthew 24. It's in Revelation 7.

It is used to describe the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of in general terms. That tribulation is here now, it is one of a kind as Jesus stated, therefore it is THE great tribulation. Did you notice at the end how EVERYONE dies, yet there is still a remnant of God's elect still alive? The elect of Israel, saved by way of Zechariah. And then the elect who survived to the end of the tribulation, who aren't in Satan's army, and thus are not slaughtered. They are still alive. Consider if God allowed Satan to continue longer. Eventually those of the elect would have been killed. They don't have the mark and don't worship the beast. However, God shortened the time for their sake. (Also, again, for the sake of the elect of Israel, who are redeemed at the end of the tribulation, through a personal visit of Christ Himself.)

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bondservants, the things which must quickly take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The events described were stated to be near to the time of John writing Revelation.

Sure. If the event is going to happen at any time from NOW to ten thousand years from now, however it is something that you MUST NOT MISS, saying the time is near is best. If you say someday, and it happens 5 minutes from now, they are going to miss it. If you say it will be a while, same thing. The other important point is that Jesus didn't know when, and John doesn't know when. Just that it must always be considered right at the door. If not, then everyone will fall asleep and miss it. Why else did the wise bridesmaids bring extra oil? They knew the groom was coming soon, however, they also knew that the groom may tarry. Consider Peter's words once again. To God, a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day. Would it not make sense, when dealing with a God who views time in this way, that soon is as a day, or a thousand years is soon? Why else was Peter telling everyone that God is not slack in His promise? To us, it may seem like a long time, but Peter tells us that to God, it is not. We don't know when God will fulfill His promise, and we must not miss it. So, not matter what year it is, it is at the door. Bring extra oil, we may be waiting a while. Why did they bring extra oil? Because, while they knew the groom was coming soon, they also knew that He might tarry.

Yet there is one eschatology far above all others that does so. It is called Dispensational Premillennialism, and it's an eschatology fraught with claims that do not reconcile with well-read, properly exegeted scripture. As the op points out, John considered himself to be in the midst of tribulation. If that is a reference to THE tribulation, he mentions later in chapter 7 then it was going on back then in the first century and not pending in the 21st.

I listened to a sermon by John MacArthur on the Olivet Discourse. He went into the eschatology of Jews pre-Christ. He basically said that it sounds pretty much like dispensational premillennialism, but Jesus hadn't even come to Earth yet. As for tribulation, the Jews were almost ALWAYS in the midst of tribulation. Jesus just basically told them that the mother of all tribulations was coming.

 

[TMSO]

I'm going to jump into this subject, since I think it is a very important subject to consider in our day in which we are now living. I may not have many more times to speak on this subject, since my days are coming to an end because of age, and while I still have a sound mind, ( that may be debatable by some ) I want to use it to spread the truth.

The Antichrist that shall come during the days of the tribulation spoken of by Daniel, first, then Christ, Paul and John is strictly spiritual in nature. I'll explain in this a few words, with much more coming later, the Lord willing. TMSO said:

He is not spiritual. He is the final embodiment of our rebellion against God. He will make peace with Israel, and will break that peace. In the end, He and His armies will attack Israel, and at that time, Christ will return in His glory, with His armies, and will destroy them.

As I said, the great tribulation is spiritual in nature not a literal time of war, where the population would kill itself away to nothing, but a time of hungering for TRUTH~a lack of bible truth being taught whereby, men and women have a true spiritual understanding of truth ~ in the latter days just before Christ's returns again, there will be a serious lack of spiritual bread of hearing the truth of the word of the Living God. Amos prophesied of this period that is yet to come in its fullness:

Consider this. If you follow the tribulation as laid out in Revelation, what do we find at the very end? The only people still standing are the elect. Kind of like how Jesus said that if the times were not shortened, there would be no flesh saved, but God shortened the days for the sake of the elect. If the days continued, the elect would eventually be wiped out, and then God would wipe out everyone else. There would be no flesh left.

TMSO, John did not say that there is the Antichrist, but he clearly said:

John mentions the antichrist in Revelation, and again in his epistles. "18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." John is clear here. The Antichrist IS coming, but at this time, there are already many antichrists. In this way, John was telling his audience that they can know that THE Antichrist is on his way.

That antichrist shall come".....Antichrist that shall come, is the same as the man of sin, or, man of sin ~ and the same as the abomination that God will make desolate in his time! Antichrist is not one person but all men who forsake the testimony of God which is absolute truth, ( not religion so much ) over and above for their own doctrines and views of whom they think God should be based upon their own depraved hearts.

The antichrists of I John 2:18 are more than one, but then there is THE Antichrist. It is he, who through the power of Satan, will stand up against God.

This antichrist wicked spirit will take over the churches of God/Christ in this world before it comes to its end! The man of sin will sit in the temple of God ( the professing churches of this world ) and declare that they are God, not verbally, for that would deceive no one, but by teaching doctrines and commandments for men to make their religion pliable for their lifestyle that are given over to. This is the message of Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; MArk 13 and Luke 21; 2nd Thess 2; 1st John 2:18 and Revelation 6-20, etc.

This period of great tribulation is Daniel little season, and will end in the destruction of this world. This period I'm firmly convince started to bud in and around 1850 when many false cult got their birth into this world. Some of them started around the same vicinity~The Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and the SDA. About this same time the world marketplaces was beginning to be flooded with so many versions of the scriptures in order to corrupt them and give their Christless hearers a bible under their arms that they could use to discredit God's word. The MOrmons have their, the Witnesses' have their, and other man of sin have created their.

No man know the hour of day of Christ's return back to gathered together his own, but of the signs of the seasons we are not in darkness concerning. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5, etc.

Matthew 24 is one of the best places to see just how close we may be for Christ's second coming.

3 Resurrection, 70 A.D. is not there it has to be force there which men like you try hard to do.

Later...RB

A quick question. Why is the rest of predictive prophecy in the Bible literally fulfilled, but this is spiritual? When did God change? When did God say something He didn't mean? If you look at what is happening in the world today, right now, Russia is the only thing that will determine if what is going on right now is the war prophesied in Ezekiel, or not. That's it. So, where do we stand if what is happening right now proves to be a fulfillment of Ezekiel?

 

[Josheb]

So, if it was so minor that everyone forgot, it could not have been the worst thing that has ever happened in the history of the world, or the future of the world. Also, Jesus was clear that at that time, He would return and gather His elect.

"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Do you understand that if his words are taken literally then less than 8 people will survive?

During the flood in the days of Noah everyone was killed, except for eight people. If the tribulation is going to be worse than anything ever to have occurred before or after, then it will have to be worse than the flood. Seven or fewer people will survive. Less than seven pairs of the clean animals will survive.

This has not happened yet.

It has happened and that argument is fallacious. The essence of the argument is this: Person A's view of what did is incorrect because history does not meet Person B's view of what should have happened.

Therefore the tribulation has not yet happened.

And that is a false cause argument. It's based on a literal reading of verse 21 that clashes with other scripture (like the account of the flood).

See how easy that is?

I see how perversely irrational and eisegetic it is.

You know, Noah's flood is ancient history, but everyone knows about it.

Yes, and nothing has been worse than that event because that event killed nearly everyone. Only eight people survived. It destroyed all life on the planet except the fish that which Noah took with him on the ark.

Revelation 7:13-14
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The logical conclusion of your eschatology is that there are only seven or fewer of these people because the great tribulation is going to be worse than Noah's flood.

There are a few major events that people know about today, because they were major. Archaeology has been able to reconcile various major events in scripture. Some of them are missed solely because they don't actually have a proper calendar for ancient history, but use Egypt, whose ancient history is a big question mark. They say Israel was never there, but there is a city that has been discovered that more than fits what happened when Jacob and the Israelites went to Egypt. The problem is that Egyptologists have cemented an imperfect history that they will not change to allow for this. The Jews were in Egypt some centuries prior, which puts them at Jericho at the proper time. The Bible is vindicated.

Aside from the non sequitur, that is true but it does nothing to prove your end times view.

And the way Jesus speaks of the tribulation: "21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." What does it mean that the days will be cut short? It means that verse 29 above happens quickly, after a shortened tribulation. (Apparently if it lasted longer than 7 years, there would be nothing left.)

Until you can explain how the great tribulation is going to be worse than a worldwide flood that left on eight humans and seven pairs of the clean animals alive the "worse than ever" argument fails.


And every single futurist sitting in church on Sunday should have asked their pastor that question when they first heard the untenable interpretation. Scripture cannot contradict scripture.

 

[Mr GLee]

I would think the beginning of the tribulation period began back to Genesis with the first martyr, prophet sent as a apostle, Abel the second born used to represent those born again he was replaced with Seth another second born passing on the spiritual; seed Christ ending with Jesus the Son of man

A great tribulation one like never before or ever again is reckoned by the first century reformation the beginning of the last days restoring the order to the government of God the government of faith Destroying the governments of men like the Pharisees with Sadaucesss still today feeling the effects of the reforming authority of the Holy Spirit (sola scriptura) A great tribulation to the unbelieving Jew that is tusting his dying flesh a great joyees tribulation lifting up the Jew and Gentile believer as one bride.

 

[Josheb]

It is used to describe the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of in general terms. That tribulation is here now, it is one of a kind as Jesus stated, therefore it is THE great tribulation. Did you notice at the end how EVERYONE dies, yet there is still a remnant of God's elect still alive? The elect of Israel, saved by way of Zechariah. And then the elect who survived to the end of the tribulation, who aren't in Satan's army, and thus are not slaughtered. They are still alive. Consider if God allowed Satan to continue longer. Eventually those of the elect would have been killed. They don't have the mark and don't worship the beast. However, God shortened the time for their sake. (Also, again, for the sake of the elect of Israel, who are redeemed at the end of the tribulation, through a personal visit of Christ Himself.)

Sure. If the event is going to happen at any time from NOW to ten thousand years from now, however it is something that you MUST NOT MISS, saying the time is near is best. If you say someday, and it happens 5 minutes from now, they are going to miss it. If you say it will be a while, same thing. The other important point is that Jesus didn't know when, and John doesn't know when. Just that it must always be considered right at the door. If not, then everyone will fall asleep and miss it. Why else did the wise bridesmaids bring extra oil? They knew the groom was coming soon, however, they also knew that the groom may tarry. Consider Peter's words once again. To God, a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day. Would it not make sense, when dealing with a God who views time in this way, that soon is as a day, or a thousand years is soon? Why else was Peter telling everyone that God is not slack in His promise? To us, it may seem like a long time, but Peter tells us that to God, it is not. We don't know when God will fulfill His promise, and we must not miss it. So, not matter what year it is, it is at the door. Bring extra oil, we may be waiting a while. Why did they bring extra oil? Because, while they knew the groom was coming soon, they also knew that He might tarry.

I listened to a sermon by John MacArthur on the Olivet Discourse. He went into the eschatology of Jews pre-Christ. He basically said that it sounds pretty much like dispensational premillennialism, but Jesus hadn't even come to Earth yet. As for tribulation, the Jews were almost ALWAYS in the midst of tribulation. Jesus just basically told them that the mother of all tribulations was coming.

Scripture says otherwise and if you get out your Bible the next time you hear John MacArthur teach and you look up the verses he cites and read them for what they actually state you will find he makes claims about scripture the scriptures themselves do not state and he ignores verses that undeniably refute his interpretation.

I read a lot. Most of what I read theologically is on Church history, soteriology, and eschatology. I have read six commentaries on Revelation from a variety of eschatological views this year, one of which was John MacArthur's and his is by far the worst of all I have ever read, this year and in my 40+ years as a Christian. It is bad. It's sloppy. Claims are made throughout the commentary that are never justified or explained. He made stuff up. Important facts in Revelation are ignored and there is very little comparative exegesis with other scripture directly informing Revelation. If you want to be Premillennial the read George Eldon Ladd's commentary on Revelation. All of his books are much better than anything any Dispensationalist has ever written, and he is well-respected even among those who hold different end-times doctrines. I sometimes disagree with his conclusions (especially eschatologically), but I have enjoyed and benefitted from every book of his I have read and find him fair and balanced when commenting on alternative views. "Blessed Hope" and "The Presence of the Future" are classics.

 

[EarlyActs]

He is not spiritual. He is the final embodiment of our rebellion against God. He will make peace with Israel, and will break that peace. In the end, He and His armies will attack Israel, and at that time, Christ will return in His glory, with His armies, and will destroy them.

Consider this. If you follow the tribulation as laid out in Revelation, what do we find at the very end? The only people still standing are the elect. Kind of like how Jesus said that if the times were not shortened, there would be no flesh saved, but God shortened the days for the sake of the elect. If the days continued, the elect would eventually be wiped out, and then God would wipe out everyone else. There would be no flesh left.

John mentions the antichrist in Revelation, and again in his epistles. "18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." John is clear here. The Antichrist IS coming, but at this time, there are already many antichrists. In this way, John was telling his audience that they can know that THE Antichrist is on his way.

The antichrists of I John 2:18 are more than one, but then there is THE Antichrist. It is he, who through the power of Satan, will stand up against God.

A quick question. Why is the rest of predictive prophecy in the Bible literally fulfilled, but this is spiritual? When did God change? When did God say something He didn't mean? If you look at what is happening in the world today, right now, Russia is the only thing that will determine if what is going on right now is the war prophesied in Ezekiel, or not. That's it. So, where do we stand if what is happening right now proves to be a fulfillment of Ezekiel?

When did God say something He didn't mean?
Many times this is only a matter of what we thought He meant, or what dispensationalists thought he meant.

 

[Josheb]

When did God say something He didn't mean?

Let's clarify what it means to say "something he didn't mean" because there are plenty of occasions when literary devices like hyperbole are used in scripture and should be understood as such. Paul said he wished those unsettling the Galatians would emasculate (castrate) themselves and he quoted the Greek philosopher Epimenides to say all Cretans are liars. Paul wishing people would castrate themselves would conflict with many other statements he made about how to interact with others (such as Col. 4:6) and the Epimenides quote was rhetoric from the Greek's play.


Regarding this thread's content, the qualifier "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will," should be understood as hyperbole because to read it literally would conflict with the already referenced flood (as well as many other tribulations in scripture and secular history). A seven-year tribulation is nothing compared to 400 years of slavery in Egypt where many were killed, and the rest lived in near destitution. Folks who take that verse literally do so neglecting other scripture. Jesus could not be lying, but he could be embellishing for the sake of communicating the severity and importance of the events he was describing. We see the same sort of thing in his admonition to poke eye and cut off hands that cause sin. While it is true that it would be better to be blind and handless in heaven then seeing and handed in hell, God does not want blind and handless people. He wants whole people who are perfect and pure! Any literal reading of that admonition directly conflicts the Law of Moses (which did not maim for law breaking) and would reconcile with the pagan laws of the surrounding cultures (which did maim law breakers).

This is just one of many, many, many examples showing how and why proof-texting is always and everywhere bad practice.

The great tribulation would be bad, but it was not going to be as bad as a world-wide flood that left only eight humans alive, and seven years is nothing in comparison to four centuries of desolation, destitution, enslavement and death. God meant what He said, but He did not mean it as futurists read it. They read scripture in ways that do not reconcile with whole scripture.

As a consequence, they endlessly hope for things never occurring and tell others to do the same, making prognostication after prognostication that never come true.

Many times this is only a matter of what we thought He meant, or what dispensationalists thought he meant.

Exactly. Well said.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So, if it was so minor that everyone forgot, it could not have been the worst thing that has ever happened in the history of the world, or the future of the world. Also, Jesus was clear that at that time, He would return and gather His elect.

"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

This has not happened yet. Therefore the tribulation has not yet happened.

Christ did not say this tribulation period would be the "worst". Wrong word. He said there would not be tribulation "SUCH AS" that Great Tribulation, either before or after that. This meant a certain KIND of tribulation that had never before or would ever in the future be experienced.

That certain KIND of tribulation was having the entire Satanic realm imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem until it was destroyed in AD 70. God destroyed all the members of the Satanic realm at that point. That means this KIND of tribulation will never happen to any location or people ever again. Never before or since AD 70 had any nation ever experienced this complete, seven-fold presence of the Satanic realm among them.

And since Christ said He would return "IMMEDIATELY AFTER" this tribulation, this, too, has been fulfilled history long ago. A second bodily resurrection event in AD 70 took place at Christ's second coming return, as He had promised before that generation had passed away. And as I have said before, we are now waiting for the third bodily resurrection event at Christ's coming yet again in our future.

 

[turbomaniac]

The ancient Greek text use the noun Συν-κοινωνος meaning co-socializer in shorrow more like "I suffer like you untill the Second Coming".

Because every one who dies earlier than the second coming is going in a temporary heaven (or hell) waiting for the second coming so that he will be judged permanently.

And that is why we must pray for the deads. We might change with our prayers the temporary judgement if the balance is quite low. It is impossible for the dead to repent so we must pray for them the same as we pray for the living.

 

[Red Baker]

He is not spiritual. He is the final embodiment of our rebellion against God. He will make peace with Israel, and will break that peace. In the end, He and His armies will attack Israel, and at that time, Christ will return in His glory, with His armies, and will destroy them.

Greetings TMSO~What you are presenting I first was taught this fifty years ago, and soon afterward ( around three years of so ) left the premill camp for their lack of biblical understanding, and turning the book of Revelation into a "speculative fiction" book, and, also rejected the Historical Amill for rubber stamping all prophecies fulfilled 79 A D.

I'm not just putting my armour on, on this battlefield, but I'm almost ready to take it off....not by choice, but by age.

I just got back from traveling, so I'll answer your post in the morning.

 

[TMSO]

Do you understand that if his words are taken literally then less than 8 people will survive?

Here is Jesus literal words again. ". 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

There will be great tribulation, such as never been seen before, and will never be seen again. It is such that if God allowed it to run through as it is, there will be NO life left on earth. I believe that beats out Noah's flood as 8 > 0. So God shortened the period for the sake of the elect. It is simple, if you are being honest. Or you can believe that the flood is worse, and Jesus lied. Your choice.

During the flood in the days of Noah everyone was killed, except for eight people. If the tribulation is going to be worse than anything ever to have occurred before or after, then it will have to be worse than the flood. Seven or fewer people will survive. Less than seven pairs of the clean animals will survive.

During this tribulation, if allowed to extend for it's full length, EVERYONE DIES. Jesus said so. Literally. Full stop. So God shortened it for the sake of the elect. So basically, if the tribulation runs full course, God kills ALL of His elect.

It has happened and that argument is fallacious. The essence of the argument is this: Person A's view of what did is incorrect because history does not meet Person B's view of what should have happened.

And that is a false cause argument. It's based on a literal reading of verse 21 that clashes with other scripture (like the account of the flood).

I see how perversely irrational and eisegetic it is.

You need to clean your glasses.

Yes, and nothing has been worse than that event because that event killed nearly everyone. Only eight people survived. It destroyed all life on the planet except the fish that which Noah took with him on the ark.

So Jesus lied. Got it.

Revelation 7:13-14
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The logical conclusion of your eschatology is that there are only seven or fewer of these people because the great tribulation is going to be worse than Noah's flood.

I think your issue is that the number doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that 8 people survived. What matters is that those God chose to survive, survived. His elect from that day. Everyone who died in the flood, God specifically determined to kill. According to Jesus, the great tribulation is indiscriminate. That is, if it runs its full course, EVERYONE DIES. God could have shortened the flood, but it wouldn't matter. Everyone would still be dead.

Aside from the non sequitur, that is true but it does nothing to prove your end times view.

Until you can explain how the great tribulation is going to be worse than a worldwide flood that left on eight humans and seven pairs of the clean animals alive the "worse than ever" argument fails.

Jesus already stated it very clearly. If you have an argument with Him, I suggest you take it up with Him.

And every single futurist sitting in church on Sunday should have asked their pastor that question when they first heard the untenable interpretation. Scripture cannot contradict scripture.

Except you are wrong. This tribulation, if carried through to completion, and not shortened, results in no one being saved. Jesus stated that clearly.

 

[TMSO]

Scripture says otherwise and if you get out your Bible the next time you hear John MacArthur teach and you look up the verses he cites and read them for what they actually state you will find he makes claims about scripture the scriptures themselves do not state and he ignores verses that undeniably refute his interpretation.

If you listen to John MacArthurs sermon on the Olivet discourse, he brings in what the Jews believed about eschatology before Jesus ever came to Earth. Since Israel is at the very heart of all of it, the Old Testament is a big part of the key as to what happens. If you have difficulty understand, remember the Jews are the ones who received the very oracles of God, and God's prophecies. They were to guard it, hold it, teach it. Jesus never said the religious leaders did not know the truth. He just clearly stated they do not live it. The rejected it. The eschatology of the Old Testament, as understood by the Jews is premillennial. The place where they stumbled is Jesus. They did not believe in two comings for their Messiah, but one. And that one coming would be the end of the world. Jesus basically told the disciples that, while He was the Messiah, it isn't the time yet.

The part where I wish I could be more like John MacArthur is this one thing. (You will probably disagree). Apparently he has been studying the bible 8 hours a day, every day, since he became pastor in 1969. That includes all the background information of the Bible, all the external information, etc. So, consider he may know a lot more than either of us about the background of the Bible. Premillennialism has been around from the moment Jesus left Earth. Amillennialism has been around since around the 4th century. Preterism has been around since the counter reformation, having been created by a Jesuit, as they tried to bring protestants back into the church. It is actually considered one of the highlights of the counter reformation. Dispensationalism did not create or invent premillennialism, it added to it. However, one can find the pieces scattered through church history all the way back to the second century.

I read a lot. Most of what I read theologically is on Church history, soteriology, and eschatology. I have read six commentaries on Revelation from a variety of eschatological views this year, one of which was John MacArthur's and his is by far the worst of all I have ever read, this year and in my 40+ years as a Christian. It is bad. It's sloppy. Claims are made throughout the commentary that are never justified or explained. He made stuff up. Important facts in Revelation are ignored and there is very little comparative exegesis with other scripture directly informing Revelation. If you want to be Premillennial the read George Eldon Ladd's commentary on Revelation. All of his books are much better than anything any Dispensationalist has ever written, and he is well-respected even among those who hold different end-times doctrines. I sometimes disagree with his conclusions (especially eschatologically), but I have enjoyed and benefitted from every book of his I have read and find him fair and balanced when commenting on alternative views. "Blessed Hope" and "The Presence of the Future" are classics.

You do know that John MacArthur does not consider himself to be a dispensationalist, right? I don't consider myself to be a dispensationalist, and the closest I ever got to agreeing with it is the dispensationalism book by Ryrie. (Since he supposedly fixed many of the issues in the theology.) I say I am a dispensational premillennialist solely because I believe it is the story of the final redemption of Israel. I can also look in the newspaper and see prophecy fulfilling itself.

 

[TMSO]

When did God say something He didn't mean?
Many times this is only a matter of what we thought He meant, or what dispensationalists thought he meant.

The measure is this. We have the book of Daniel. It is known to be a book of predictive prophecy that has been fulfilled as written. It is to the point that scholars were trying to change the date of its writing to a future date. However, someone stumbled upon a copy of part of the Bible dated to the new date that scholars were giving for the date of Daniel, and Daniel was a part of it, showing that it was already established. That means it had been written a long time before then, back to the original early date. So, if this is how prophecy works (literal fulfillment), why should any prophecy be spiritualized? Even the prophecies of Jesus were literally fulfilled.

As you can see, it isn't "what we thought He meant", it is "What you want to say He meant."

 

[TMSO]

Christ did not say this tribulation period would be the "worst". Wrong word. He said there would not be tribulation "SUCH AS" that Great Tribulation, either before or after that. This meant a certain KIND of tribulation that had never before or would ever in the future be experienced.

You ignore everything else He said. He even quantized the tribulation (any military evaluation report writer would be overjoyed) and said that if God had allowed it to continue to completion, EVERYONE WOULD BE DEAD. There would be no one left on Earth. Obviously this means it is minor, and He is only speaking of a certain kind of tribulation. This is a GREAT TRIBULATION, and based on what Jesus was saying, it would be the mother of all tribulations. Jesus was very clear. He also said it would never be duplicated.

That certain KIND of tribulation was having the entire Satanic realm imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem until it was destroyed in AD 70. God destroyed all the members of the Satanic realm at that point. That means this KIND of tribulation will never happen to any location or people ever again. Never before or since AD 70 had any nation ever experienced this complete, seven-fold presence of the Satanic realm among them.

There is nothing in scripture that you can pull to support this. Absolutely nothing.

And since Christ said He would return "IMMEDIATELY AFTER" this tribulation, this, too, has been fulfilled history long ago. A second bodily resurrection event in AD 70 took place at Christ's second coming return, as He had promised before that generation had passed away. And as I have said before, we are now waiting for the third bodily resurrection event at Christ's coming yet again in our future.

He spoke of a physical, bodily return, at which point the Earth would be destroyed. Jesus only has a second coming, there is no third coming. The young men who spoke to the disciples for Christ said that Jesus would return how He left. From heaven and visibly.

 

[TMSO]

Greetings TMSO~What you are presenting I first was taught this fifty years ago, and soon afterward ( around three years of so ) left the premill camp for their lack of biblical understanding, and turning the book of Revelation into a "speculative fiction" book, and, also rejected the Historical Amill for rubber stamping all prophecies fulfilled 79 A D.

I'm not just putting my armour on, on this battlefield, but I'm almost ready to take it off....not by choice, but by age.

I just got back from traveling, so I'll answer your post in the morning.

Now that you see prophecies being fulfilled in regards to Israel again, you should consider premill again.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You ignore everything else He said. He even quantized the tribulation (any military evaluation report writer would be overjoyed) and said that if God had allowed it to continue to completion, EVERYONE WOULD BE DEAD. There would be no one left on Earth.

That's the wrong application of the "days of vengeance", which was going to be a Great Tribulation period concentrated on the country of Judea. "There shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE", Christ said. That was not all the people living in the whole world. That was in particular the land of Israel and the people of Israel who would be experiencing that "great distress". Vengeance was going to be exacted upon those who had been the "betrayers and murderers" of Christ, who had slain the prophets and servants of the Lord. It was also vengeance exacted upon the city Jerusalem which had brought about that persecution of God's prophets and servants during its history.

Some of God's elect were in the city of Jerusalem during its cataclysmic ending from AD 66-70. For those elect's sake, God shortened the days that it took to bring Jerusalem down.

There is nothing in scripture that you can pull to support this. Absolutely nothing.

Of course there is. I wouldn't write about the destruction of the entire Satanic realm in AD 70 if I hadn't found evidence for this from scripture.

He spoke of a physical, bodily return, at which point the Earth would be destroyed. Jesus only has a second coming, there is no third coming. The young men who spoke to the disciples for Christ said that Jesus would return how He left. From heaven and visibly.

No, scripture never said the planet earth would be destroyed. Peter spoke of the earth (tes ges - meaning the land of Israel) which would be burned up along with the works in it. Judea's citites were definitely razed and / or put to the torch by the Romans in the years from AD 66-70, and the "works" such as the fabulous temple complex and the city of Jerusalem was laid level with the ground.

And scripture does teach a third bodily coming, which would also be a bodily coming just like Christ's second coming back in AD 70; which was from heaven, and also visible at that time to those who pierced Him.