When is the Tribulation period?

[Arial]

Correct me if I am misunderstanding but are you saying the times of the Gentiles began at Pentecost and ended with the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD? The way I read the verse, it seems to me, the times of the Gentiles began in 70AD not found it's fulfillment.

Luke 21:24
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

No that is not what I am saying.

I am saying the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles and the further scattering of the Jews (which began with the Assyrian defeat of the northern kingdom and the fall of Judah to Babylon) was fulfilled in 70 a.d. I am saying that is what Jesus was referring to. And that the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled means the prophecy of this is fulfilled in 70 a.d. If this is the case, the time of the Gentiles does not refer to the beginning of the church at Pentecost. Pentecost is not really the beginning of the church (the disciples were already a part of the church) so much as it was about the same way of salvation going to Jew and Gentile alike with power to begin spreading to the Gentile nations as well as gathering Jews all into one covenant community. Pentecost is about the church becoming visible and growing, the body of Christ.

The fulfillment of the Gentiles applied to 70 a.d. would be the wall between Jew and Gentile being visibly broken down with the destruction of the entire Jewish old covenant way of coming near to God. It no longer exists. The old covenant has passed away, the new covenant has come that God makes with Jew and Gentile.

 

[CrowCross]

You are battling a long-dead enemy who no longer exists in this world.

LOL.....OK, if you say so.

 

[3 Resurrections]

LOL.....OK, if you say so.

These are not my ideas. I am relying on scriptures such as Paul's statement to the Roman believers that God was going to crush Satan under their own feet "shortly" (Romans 16:20). Satan having only a "short time" and a "little season" left to operate in this world really was only a brief amount of time left for him to exist as of the time John was writing Revelation in late AD 59 to early AD 60.

 

[3 Resurrections]

God turned Satan into burned-up ashes on the earth by then, as Ezekiel 24:18-19 predicted for that formerly-anointed cherub

Apologies for the typo. That was Ezekiel 28:18-19 instead. It never fails to amaze me just how fervently people desire for Satan to still be in existence when God predicted exactly when He would slay that Dragon and get rid of the entire Satanic realm. The apparent devotion to that fallen angel and his minions is seriously messed up. It's as if people have simply got to have a "fall guy" to take the blame for their own sin. Every since Satan got the ball of sin rolling in the Garden of Eden, mankind has been capable of performing evil all on their own, with or without the presence of Satan or his devils instigating that evil.

 

[EarlyActs]

So you feel that the tribulation John was ascribing to himself was the period before Christ returned to earth.... as in AD70 as many preterists say
happened? His return?

Matt 24A (up to v29) was about 1st cent. Judea, and it was forceful! There are reasons to think that the Rev was written in the same mind, for ex., the 1st page says the things are happening soon, the language is heavily Judaic, and several things can be shown to refer to 1st cent. situations--like the huge army on the banks of the Euphrates.

But the distinction (the 'after v29 material) is obviously world wide judgement. Or as Romans 2 says, there would be wrath and tribulation for the Jew first, then the Gentiles.

To relate these two, I use the term 'the delay doctrine' and believe it to be explicitly addressed in 2 Peter 3.

 

[sawdust]

No that is not what I am saying.

I am saying the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles and the further scattering of the Jews (which began with the Assyrian defeat of the northern kingdom and the fall of Judah to Babylon) was fulfilled in 70 a.d. I am saying that is what Jesus was referring to. And that the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled means the prophecy of this is fulfilled in 70 a.d. If this is the case, the time of the Gentiles does not refer to the beginning of the church at Pentecost. Pentecost is not really the beginning of the church (the disciples were already a part of the church) so much as it was about the same way of salvation going to Jew and Gentile alike with power to begin spreading to the Gentile nations as well as gathering Jews all into one covenant community. Pentecost is about the church becoming visible and growing, the body of Christ.

The fulfillment of the Gentiles applied to 70 a.d. would be the wall between Jew and Gentile being visibly broken down with the destruction of the entire Jewish old covenant way of coming near to God. It no longer exists. The old covenant has passed away, the new covenant has come that God makes with Jew and Gentile.

Ah I get what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.

So you see the Great Tribulation as that period leading into and ending in 70AD?

 

[Arial]

Ah I get what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.

So you see the Great Tribulation as that period leading into and ending in 70AD?

No I don't mean that either. I think the tribulation is the time period between Christ's first and second coming. It is when His church and His people are being persecuted and also go through the sufferings of life. But mainly has to do with the persecution of Christians as the evil one attempts to undo what Christ accomplished on the cross, and torment, tempt, deceive His people.

I believe that this persecution will get progressively worse the closer we get to His second coming. So there will be a climax of troubles for the church. I believe satan is bound now from deceiving the nations. And I believe that means he is not permitted to stop the gospel from going to all nations and peoples, nor is he permitted to stop public worship and gathering of the saints, at least not in all places. It is when he is released for a time that there will be world wide intense persecution of the church like has never been before, for it has never been world wide before. The US will be included in that persecution and this persecution will come from political powers.

Whether this time period of increased persecution is a literal seven years or whether the number is symbolic of completion and perfection as it is used elsewhere in Rev and throughout the Bible, I can't say.

I believe the judgments we see in Rev are parallel from different perspectives, not separate series of judgments.

 

[sawdust]

No I don't mean that either. I think the tribulation is the time period between Christ's first and second coming. It is when His church and His people are being persecuted and also go through the sufferings of life. But mainly has to do with the persecution of Christians as the evil one attempts to undo what Christ accomplished on the cross, and torment, tempt, deceive His people.

I believe that this persecution will get progressively worse the closer we get to His second coming. So there will be a climax of troubles for the church. I believe satan is bound now from deceiving the nations. And I believe that means he is not permitted to stop the gospel from going to all nations and peoples, nor is he permitted to stop public worship and gathering of the saints, at least not in all places. It is when he is released for a time that there will be world wide intense persecution of the church like has never been before, for it has never been world wide before. The US will be included in that persecution and this persecution will come from political powers.

Whether this time period of increased persecution is a literal seven years or whether the number is symbolic of completion and perfection as it is used elsewhere in Rev and throughout the Bible, I can't say.

I believe the judgments we see in Rev are parallel from different perspectives, not separate series of judgments.

Then I don't understand how you see the Great Tribulation covering 2,000 years and counting when Jesus seemed to make a very definite link between the time of the siege and fall of Jerusalem and the Great Tribulation. Can you explain that please? And also explain how can it get worse when Jesus says there won't be a worse time. It seems to me one either has to see the fall of Jerusalem as another time (other than 70AD) or recognise the Great Tribulation has passed and it is not for the Church at all.

Matt.24:15-22
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

 

[CrowCross]

These are not my ideas. I am relying on scriptures such as Paul's statement to the Roman believers that God was going to crush Satan under their own feet "shortly" (Romans 16:20). Satan having only a "short time" and a "little season" left to operate in this world really was only a brief amount of time left for him to exist as of the time John was writing Revelation in late AD 59 to early AD 60.

Well, it didn't happen quite that way.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Well, it didn't happen quite that way.

No one today is an eye-witness of what went on in the first century. For that reason, we have to depend on what scripture said was going on and what would "shortly" transpire for its first-century readers. The word "shortly" has not changed definition in the centuries since John's time.

 

[CrowCross]

No one today is an eye-witness of what went on in the first century. For that reason, we have to depend on what scripture said was going on and what would "shortly" transpire for its first-century readers. The word "shortly" has not changed definition in the centuries since John's time.

Shortly depend upon ones frame of reference.

 

[Eleanor]

Then I don't understand how you see the Great Tribulation covering 2,000 years and counting when Jesus seemed to make a very definite link between the time of the siege and fall of Jerusalem and the Great Tribulation. Can you explain that please? And also explain how can it get worse when Jesus says there won't be a worse time. It seems to me one either has to see the fall of Jerusalem as another time (other than 70AD) or recognise the Great Tribulation has passed and it is not for the Church at all.

Matt.24:15-22
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The great tribulation is a specific time in the tribulation.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Shortly depend upon ones frame of reference.

It does. "Shortly" to the Roman believers who were being addressed in Romans 16:20 was in their near future in those days - not ours.

 

[Arial]

Then I don't understand how you see the Great Tribulation covering 2,000 years and counting when Jesus seemed to make a very definite link between the time of the siege and fall of Jerusalem and the Great Tribulation. Can you explain that please? And also explain how can it get worse when Jesus says there won't be a worse time. It seems to me one either has to see the fall of Jerusalem as another time (other than 70AD) or recognise the Great Tribulation has passed and it is not for the Church at all.

The Great Tribulation is a construct from the scripture and a particular way of reading Revelation. The scripture actually simply says there will be great tribulation. So the tribulation Jesus speaks of imo is not a seven year period at the end of the age immediately preceding His second coming but He is speaking to His disciples here of the time period between His resurrection and His second bodily coming. Matt 24:9-13.

Jesus is addressing two things here with them. The question they asked that followed His statement that no stone of the temple would be left upon another. (Verses 10-22). All of which we see occurring in 70 a.d. (Verse 9 also applied directly to the disciples)

In verses 4-9 He speaks of the time between His resurrection and second coming. He calls it a time of tribulation and everything He says in there has been occurring since His resurrection in various places and at various times.

Verses 23-26 apply to the entire period of tribulation from His resurrection up to His second coming, verses 24-31 address the end of this period of tribulation with His second coming, and the language is obvious symbolic, representing a complete change---a new heaven and a new earth.

And also explain how can it get worse when Jesus says there won't be a worse time. It seems to me one either has to see the fall of Jerusalem as another time (other than 70AD) or recognise the Great Tribulation has passed and it is not for the Church at all.

I would venture to say the use of figurative language as there is much of that in this discourse. The two options you give only exist if one is following the construct of a Great Tribulation and attaches it to a literal seven year period before His return and interprets all of Rev through that lens and makes the language fit the construct.

 

[CrowCross]

It does. "Shortly" to the Roman believers who were being addressed in Romans 16:20 was in their near future in those days - not ours.

Well, once again it didn't happen.

Satan is still roaming around like a roaring lion.

 

[sawdust]

The Great Tribulation is a construct from the scripture and a particular way of reading Revelation. The scripture actually simply says there will be great tribulation. So the tribulation Jesus speaks of imo is not a seven year period at the end of the age immediately preceding His second coming but He is speaking to His disciples here of the time period between His resurrection and His second bodily coming. Matt 24:9-13.

You seem to be missing the point of what I said. In Matthew 24 Jesus linked the tribulation period to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Matt.24:15-22
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

When is the "then" (v.21)? When the abomination is set up, when you better flee, when you best hope you're not pregnant or nursing and when you better pray it's not winter. Jesus doesn't say "for after this there will be great tribulation". He also says there will never be another time of tribulation this intense. (end of verse 21)

I'm not looking at what I think the great tribulation is or isn't, I'm looking at what you said and comparing it to what Jesus said. I've looked at many, many translations and they all say the same thing either "then" or "at this time" clearly linking the worst period of tribulation in human history with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Therefore I ask again how can the period of great tribulation last 2,000+ years and be getting progressively worse?

 

[sawdust]

The great tribulation is a specific time in the tribulation.

See post#76

 

[sawdust]

You seem to be missing the point of what I said. In Matthew 24 Jesus linked the tribulation period to the destruction of Jerusalem.

I couldn't edit my post#76 but I should have said "Jesus linked the great tribulation period ..."

 

[Eleanor]

See post#76

Then the specific time could be the destruction of Jerusalem.
But "tribulation" causes me to think of the persecution of the church at its beginning, all its martyrs, persecution over time, and persecution on the horizon now.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Well, once again it didn't happen.

Satan is still roaming around like a roaring lion.

Peter's statement about a current situation in those days of Satan walking about as a "roaring lion" is not necessarily true of later centuries following the one Peter was in at the time. When we have God's statements saying when Satan was going to be destroyed utterly to ashes, it is incumbent on us to believe those verses and all the other combined texts related to the time of Satan's destruction. It's a subject which I'll address soon in a post dedicated to that theme. Satan's angry period of a "short time" extended into the "Great Tribulation" period between AD 66-70, but that "short time" and "little season" of a loosed Satan really began at Christ's first ascension on His resurrection day in AD 33.