When is the Tribulation period?

[Arial]

As is typical in dispensationalism, the one kingdom of God presented in NT apostolic teaching is divided into two by literal interpretation of figurative prophecy.

Exactly.

 

[CrowCross]

Peter's statement about a current situation in those days of Satan walking about as a "roaring lion" is not necessarily true of later centuries following the one Peter was in at the time. When we have God's statements saying when Satan was going to be destroyed utterly to ashes, it is incumbent on us to believe those verses and all the other combined texts related to the time of Satan's destruction. It's a subject which I'll address soon in a post dedicated to that theme. Satan's angry period of a "short time" extended into the "Great Tribulation" period between AD 66-70, but that "short time" and "little season" of a loosed Satan really began at Christ's first ascension on His resurrection day in AD 33.

Anyone trying to tell me Satan is no longer around...is speaking rubbish.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Anyone trying to tell me Satan is no longer around...is speaking rubbish.

I would not state this if I had not collected the Biblical backing for making such a statement. Most people, like yourself, are too accustomed to believing that Satan is an immortal being, and cannot possibly be destroyed. The scriptures say otherwise.

 

[Arial]

You seem to be missing the point of what I said. In Matthew 24 Jesus linked the tribulation period to the destruction of Jerusalem.

The OP isn't really about Matt 24 but the tribulation John spoke of in Rev. The churches he wrote to were suffering great tribulation. John tells us this and John himself was suffering tribulation having been exiled to Patmos. Patmos was a small island of the coast of modern day Turkey. It had a Roman penal settlement it used for people who were considered dangerous to good order. How one interprets Rev depends on whether they believe in the early date of its composition during the reign of Nero (54-68 a.d.) or Domitan (81-96 a.d.). The later date is favored by most scholars, which means it happened after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. In any case, the church was under severe persecution and those John was writing to needed strengthening to endure, rather than give in to the pressures of the pagan government around them. It is to Christians of all times serving the same purpose and to endure the persecution that is to come upon the church in all time periods and getting more universal and worse as the consummation draws near. A great many people do not get this message and courage the book is giving because they think they will not have to endure it.

But in our conversation we have come to a place where I feel I should address the questions you ask so I will address this last one on Matt 24.

I'm not looking at what I think the great tribulation is or isn't, I'm looking at what you said and comparing it to what Jesus said. I've looked at many, many translations and they all say the same thing either "then" or "at this time" clearly linking the worst period of tribulation in human history with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Therefore I ask again how can the period of great tribulation last 2,000+ years and be getting progressively worse?

Jesus was speaking in that set of passages 9-22 of what came to pass in 70 a.d. answering their question, "When will this be?" they asked about the destruction of the temple he had just spoken of. However "those days" can also be reverting back to 4-8 "the beginning of sorrows."
But the fall of Jerusalem was a judgement by God.

Jesus is addressing two things here. The fall of Jerusalem resulted in a great tribulation for the Jews and also for Gentile Christian alike. That does not preclude that the church experiences tribulation, and has, since the resurrection, and will until His return. Look at history and you will see that is the case, and sometimes and in some places, it was really bad, deadly. It will get worse for a "short time" when Satan is released from not deceiving the the nations to being allowed to deceive the nations. Then nations, governments, all of them, will embark on a persecution of the church.

You are simply restricting Matt 24 to be a teaching solely on end times and trying to identify its parts.

 

[CrowCross]

I would not state this if I had not collected the Biblical backing for making such a statement. Most people, like yourself, are too accustomed to believing that Satan is an immortal being, and cannot possibly be destroyed. The scriptures say otherwise.

Rev 20:10 is still in the future.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Rev 20:10 is still in the future.

Revelation 20:10 and Satan's destruction in the "Lake of Fire" is sandwiched in between John's introduction to Revelation and his concluding remarks (Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10), which both state that anything of the future which John revealed was "at hand". That meant those things were "present" for John's time.

 

[CrowCross]

Revelation 20:10 and Satan's destruction in the "Lake of Fire" is sandwiched in between John's introduction to Revelation and his concluding remarks (Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10), which both state that anything of the future which John revealed was "at hand". That meant those things were "present" for John's time.

LOL....I don't think it's that complicated.

One thing Satan would love people to believe is that he has been captured and chained up...

 

[3 Resurrections]

LOL....I don't think it's that complicated.

One thing Satan would love people to believe is that he has been captured and chained up..

Satan is not captured and chained at present. He's dead. Along with all his devils and unclean spirits. Just as God had announced would happen as well as where that would happen.

What's so complicated about that? All of Revelation is a history book (with some really ancient history included), with the exception of the sealed-up prophecies of Revelation 10:4 concerning times that would follow AD 70 - including our times. Nothing complicated at all about this.

 

[Eleanor]

I would not state this if I had not collected the Biblical backing for making such a statement. Most people, like yourself, are too accustomed to believing that Satan is an immortal being, and cannot possibly be destroyed. The scriptures say otherwise.

Spirits are immortal--divine, angelic and human.

 

[Arial]

Revelation 20:10 and Satan's destruction in the "Lake of Fire" is sandwiched in between John's introduction to Revelation and his concluding remarks (Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10), which both state that anything of the future which John revealed was "at hand". That meant those things were "present" for John's time.

A bit of leaping to a conclusion without considering all things. The ESV says "is near" rather than "at hand" but the meaning is the same. A whole lot was depicted between Rev 1 and Rev 22 and "is near' or "at hand" mean the opposite of what you say it means. It means future (and noone, not even John knew the time of the return of Christ or how many centuries have already passed since he wrote the letter)not present at the time of the writing.

In Rev 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

There is a tendency to read Revelation as though it were a puzzle to solve that tells the future if we get all the pieces into place, when it is a further revealing of Jesus that covers the Law and prophets (OT) through His first advent, His crucifixion, His resurrection and ascension, the times after that all the way to His return. It gives us a perspective the rest of the Bible hints at. From the perspective of the spiritual realm.

And reading it a a puzzle to solve rather than its greater correlation to a picture book, we are apt to miss its purpose, both for those who received the letter and to all future Christians. Chapter 1:9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus--- The tribulation was the persecution of the church and her people that was being experienced then and has been in one place or another and one time or another ever since, and will become, I believe, worldwide. John was writing to them and by extension us, to endure in the faith no matter what. He wrote to encourage them as they, and by extension us, were being bombarded by both the surrounding culture and national powers, and were losing hope and strength to stand against it.

To say it was near is simply to say, no one knows when the King will return, so be prepared and stand strong in the faith.

 

[Eleanor]

A bit of leaping to a conclusion without considering all things. The ESV says "is near" rather than "at hand" but the meaning is the same. A whole lot was depicted between Rev 1 and Rev 22 and "is near' or "at hand" mean the opposite of what you say it means. It means future (and noone, not even John knew the time of the return of Christ or how many centuries have already passed since he wrote the letter)not present at the time of the writing.

In Rev 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

There is a tendency to read Revelation as though it were a puzzle to solve that tells the future if we get all the pieces into place, when it is a further revealing of Jesus that covers the Law and prophets (OT) through His first advent, His crucifixion, His resurrection and ascension, the times after that all the way to His return. It gives us a perspective the rest of the Bible hints at. From the perspective of the spiritual realm.

And reading it a a puzzle to solve rather than its greater correlation to a picture book, we are apt to miss its purpose, both for those who received the letter and to all future Christians. Chapter 1:9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus--- The tribulation was the persecution of the church and her people that was being experienced then and has been in one place or another and one time or another ever since, and will become, I believe, worldwide. John was writing to them and by extension us, to endure in the faith no matter what. He wrote to encourage them as they, and by extension us, were being bombarded by both the surrounding culture and national powers, and were losing hope and strength to stand against it.

To say it was near is simply to say, no one knows when the King will return, so be prepared and stand strong in the faith.

I don't see Revelation as a chronology from beginning to end.
Rather I see the structure of the visions in the book of Daniel as the key to the structure of the visions in Revelation.

The visions in Daniel are
the sum of prophecy revealed by the Son of Man (Da 10:4-9)
from the book of God's eternal decrees (Da 10:21, 12:1)
regarding the OT church (Da 2:28, 8:26, 10:14) and the end (Da 8:19).

And the visions in Revelation are
the sum of prophecy revealed by the Son of Man (Rev 1:12-18)
from the book of God's eternal decrees (Rev 5:1-5, 6:1, 10:1-4, 8-10, 20:12)
regarding the NT church (Rev 1:9, 10:11) and the end (Rev 10:7 11:18, 16:17, 21:6).

I see neither Daniel nor Revelation as successive chronologies, but as four parallels in Daniel and seven parallels in Revelation (as are the eight parallels in Zec 1-6), each revealing more details of the same events and things.
And as the numbers and time frame regarding the OT church in Da 9:24-27 are not literal, so the numbers and time frame regarding the NT church in Revelation are not literal.
It is seeing Revelation as a literal successive chronology that is the basis for much interpretation of prophecy today that is contradictory to NT apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:14-17, 2 Th 1:6-10, 2:1-8).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Spirits are immortal--divine, angelic and human.

The spirits of mankind and the spirits of angel-kind are created things. They only get immortality if they are identified with the immortal Christ, "who only hath immortality..." (1 Timothy 6:16). Those beings which do not have that connection with the immortal Christ will never and have never "put on immortality". That applies to both angels and humans. Any created being that is not "in Christ" does not have eternal life - of any kind.

In Rev 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

That is a rather blurred translation. A more accurate translation is "...those things that are about to take place after this." This was future events that were imminent and also "at hand" in the time John was writing

God defines for us exactly what He meant by a prophecy being "at hand" in Ezekiel 12:21-28. An "at hand" prophecy would NOT be "prolonged" into "times that are far off". Instead, "at hand" prophecies would be fulfilled "in YOUR days" for the ones initially receiving that prophecy for the first time. God would not only speak the words of that "at hand" prophecy, but He would also perform them in that same time frame.

God's definition of what He meant by an "at hand" prophecy did not change from Ezekiel's time to mean something different in John's days. What John was seeing about those future events that were "about to take place after this" was something his own generation would see in THEIR days. Those "at hand" prophecies revealed in Revelation would NOT be "prolonged" into "times that are far off", such as our days.

When John gave us the key for interpreting his visions in the very first chapter introduction (Revelation 1:3) and then repeated those same comments in the very last concluding remarks (Revelation 22:10), we are not at liberty to twist God's "at hand" definition to suit our own perceptions of what should or shouldn't have happened back in the time John was writing. That would be the cart driving the horse, so to speak. If John included all those unsealed visions of future events within the parameters of times that were "at hand", that means we are intended to interpret them as taking place in John's days - not ours.

 

[Eleanor]

The spirits of mankind and the spirits of angel-kind are created things. They only get immortality if they are identified with the immortal Christ, "who only hath immortality..." (1 Timothy 6:16).

God only has immortality in himself.
He gives mortality to his created spirits.

Those beings which do not have that connection with the immortal Christ will never and have never "put on immortality". That applies to both angels and humans. Any created being that is not "in Christ" does not have eternal life - of any kind.

That is a rather blurred translation. A more accurate translation is "...those things that are about to take place after this." This was future events that were imminent and also "at hand" in the time John was writing

God defines for us exactly what He meant by a prophecy being "at hand" in Ezekiel 12:24-28. An "at hand" prophecy would NOT be "prolonged" into "times that are far off". Instead, "at hand" prophecies would be fulfilled "in YOUR days" for the ones initially receiving that prophecy for the first time. God would not only speak the words of that "at hand" prophecy, but He would also perform them in that same time frame.

God's definition of what He meant by an "at hand" prophecy did not change from Ezekiel's time to mean something different in John's days. What John was seeing about those future events that were "about to take place after this" was something his own generation would see in THEIR days. Those "at hand" prophecies revealed in Revelation would NOT be "prolonged" into "times that are far off", such as our days.

When John gave us the key for interpreting his visions in the very first chapter introduction (Revelation 1:3) and then repeated those same comments in the very last concluding remarks (Revelation 22:10), we are not at liberty to twist God's "at hand" definition to suit our own perceptions of what should or shouldn't have happened back in the time John was writing. That would be the cart driving the horse, so to speak. If John included all those unsealed visions of future events within the parameters of times that were "at hand", that means we are intended to interpret them as taking place in John's days - not ours.

 

[Eleanor]

The spirits of mankind and the spirits of angel-kind are created things. They only get immortality if they are identified with the immortal Christ, "who only hath immortality..." (1 Timothy 6:16). Those beings which do not have that connection with the immortal Christ will never and have never "put on immortality". That applies to both angels and humans. Any created being that is not "in Christ" does not have eternal life - of any kind.

That is a rather blurred translation. A more accurate translation is "...those things that are about to take place after this." This was future events that were imminent and also "at hand" in the time John was writing

"Imminent" and "soon" aren't the same from the eternal perspective as they are from the temporal perspective, in that Jesus said he would return "soon." (Rev 22:7, 12).

God defines for us exactly what He meant by a prophecy being "at hand" in Ezekiel 12:24-28. An "at hand" prophecy would NOT be "prolonged" into "times that are far off". Instead, "at hand" prophecies would be fulfilled "in YOUR days" for the ones initially receiving that prophecy for the first time. God would not only speak the words of that "at hand" prophecy, but He would also perform them in that same time frame.

God's definition of what He meant by an "at hand" prophecy did not change from Ezekiel's time to mean something different in John's days. What John was seeing about those future events that were "about to take place after this" was something his own generation would see in THEIR days. Those "at hand" prophecies revealed in Revelation would NOT be "prolonged" into "times that are far off", such as our days.

When John gave us the key for interpreting his visions in the very first chapter introduction (Revelation 1:3) and then repeated those same comments in the very last concluding remarks (Revelation 22:10), we are not at liberty to twist God's "at hand" definition to suit our own perceptions of what should or shouldn't have happened back in the time John was writing. That would be the cart driving the horse, so to speak. If John included all those unsealed visions of future events within the parameters of times that were "at hand", that means we are intended to interpret them as taking place in John's days - not ours.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Imminent" and "soon" aren't the same from the eternal perspective as they are from the temporal perspective, in that Jesus said he would return "soon." (Rev 22:7, 12).

But God was not talking to Himself in Revelation in eternal perspective terms. Those visions were being passed on to His servants so that they would not be overwhelmed by what was "about to" happen to them in that generation. God had communicated that information to Jesus of what was "about to" happen, who gave that information to John in visions to pass on the servants of Christ. (Revelation 1:1). As humans, we understand things from a temporal perspective, and God was perfectly capable of passing on prophetic information to John's readers on those terms as a timely advance warning for them.

Some of the Smyrna church believers were "about to" experience suffering, and John told them that Satan was "about to cast some of you into prison". This was an imminent threat of persecution for them as one of the fallouts of the AD 57 Ephesian riot in that capitol of Asia: a period of tribulation for believers which had spread to their city of Smyrna.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9.

Seems to me in Rev 1:9 John understood himself to be (presently) in the Tribulation.


Thoughts?

There's a difference between "Tribulation" (which we all endure in life - some more than others), and "THE TRIBULATION" which immediately precedes to end of the age.

 

[Carbon]

There's a difference between "Tribulation" (which we all endure in life - some more than others), and "THE TRIBULATION" which immediately precedes to end of the age.

Did you just realize that?

Wow!

 

[Eleanor]

But God was not talking to Himself in Revelation in eternal perspective terms. Those visions were being passed on to His servants so that they would not be overwhelmed by what was "about to" happen to them in that generation. God had communicated that information to Jesus of what was "about to" happen, who gave that information to John in visions to pass on the servants of Christ. (Revelation 1:1). As humans, we understand things from a temporal perspective, and God was perfectly capable of passing on prophetic information to John's readers on those terms as a timely advance warning for them.

Some of the Smyrna church believers were "about to" experience suffering, and John told them that Satan was "about to cast some of you into prison". This was an imminent threat of persecution for them as one of the fallouts of the AD 57 Ephesian riot in that capitol of Asia: a period of tribulation for believers which had spread to their city of Smyrna.

So the second coming "soon" (Rev 22:7, 12, 20) has already happened in that generation?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Did you just realize that?

Wow!

Nope. why would you think I did?

 

[Carbon]

Nope. why would you think I did?

Chuckle