When is the Tribulation period?

[Red Baker]

Now that you see prophecies being fulfilled in regards to Israel again, you should consider premill again.

So called evangelicals and Fox news do not dictate my understanding of bible prophecies ~ the Jewish apostles of the New Testament do.

I'm heading above to answer your other post.

 

[Red Baker]

He is not spiritual.

John mentions the antichrist in Revelation, and again in his epistles. "18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." John is clear here. The Antichrist IS coming, but at this time, there are already many antichrists. In this way, John was telling his audience that they can know that THE Antichrist is on his way.

Antichrist is spiritual in nature, not a literal, single, superman, the devil incarnate as man, as the deceived evangelicals teach. By saying this, I'm not judging their love for God, or, their eternal salvation, but I can judge their doctrine and we should test every spirit with the testimony of God's holy word. God will separate the goats from the sheep, he didn't call us to do his work concerning that work of knowing the true hearts of all men.
Now, concerning 1st John 2:18 which you are misquoting by adding "the" you are limiting its meaning to stand one person instead of for a class or number of individuals.

1st John 2:18~"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

Do you see the article "the" in front of antichrist, of course you do not see it, for it is not there, you and others are adding it there to support a doctrine not taught in the scriptures?

The Holy Ghost did not say "the" antichrist, as one, but antichrist shall come, even as many had in John's days, but so many more will come during the little season of Revelation 20 ~ the great tribulation period, which is strictly spiritual in nature ~ per Christ's teaching from Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:5~"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Matthew 24:11~"11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

Matthew 24:24~"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

The majority of professing Christians in this world today are part of the antichrist spirit that was prophesied to come by Daniel, Christ, Paul and John. These folks stand in the temple of God, declaring that they are God ~ they do so, by boldly rejecting even the Lord that bought them, and decarle that he not only bought the church but every single person form Adam to the last soul, so, in that sense they reject the biblical atonement of Jesus Christ, but it does not stop there, they twist, perverts and corrupt doctrine after doctrine to where even men like Donald Trump and Joe Biden believe they are children of God while they live a life totally opposite of the word of God.

2nd Peter 2:1~" But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Jude verse 3~"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Men deny Jesus Christ by rejecting clear teachings taught by Christ and his apostle, even within the temple of God where he is is supposed to be worship.

In the latter days of the last days, this spirit of antichrist shall arise within the professing churches throughout this world ~even to the degree, that the very elect will flee unto the mountains, and will warn other not to enter therein!

Luke 21:21~"Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."

Consider this. If you follow the tribulation as laid out in Revelation, what do we find at the very end? The only people still standing are the elect. Kind of like how Jesus said that if the times were not shortened, there would be no flesh saved, but God shortened the days for the sake of the elect. If the days continued, the elect would eventually be wiped out, and then God would wipe out everyone else. There would be no flesh left.

Coming back to address this point.

 

[EarlyActs]

The measure is this. We have the book of Daniel. It is known to be a book of predictive prophecy that has been fulfilled as written. It is to the point that scholars were trying to change the date of its writing to a future date. However, someone stumbled upon a copy of part of the Bible dated to the new date that scholars were giving for the date of Daniel, and Daniel was a part of it, showing that it was already established. That means it had been written a long time before then, back to the original early date. So, if this is how prophecy works (literal fulfillment), why should any prophecy be spiritualized? Even the prophecies of Jesus were literally fulfilled.

As you can see, it isn't "what we thought He meant", it is "What you want to say He meant."

Countless NT quotes of the OT exhibit a Christ-based reality fulfilling an OT prophecy. "The temple he was speaking of was his body." "Elijah was John the baptizer--if you can accept it." "The Seed refers to one person, not many people" (Gal 3).

And on the other hand, many "literalists" about Dan 9 insist that the atonement of 9:24 cannot be the Gospel and that there is a 2nd atonement just for the Jews, and that the 70 weeks must be interrupted by an additional break (besides the one at the 7th week) so that there can be "literal" fulfillment in our future. This departs radically from the ordinary sense of the thing and its description of the destruction of Jerusalem in the generation of Messiah.

 

[Josheb]

Here is Jesus literal words again. ". 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

There will be great tribulation, such as never been seen before, and will never be seen again.

Yep. That is what he said. What he said is not in dispute. It is the various interpretations that are being disputed because it cannot be taken to mean the great tribulation will be worse than the flood because if that were the case than less than eight people would survive the great tribulation. In other words, no interpretation of Matthew 24:21-22 can conflict with other scripture.

That is what modern futurism does: it makes Matthew 24:21-22 conflict with Genesis 6-9.

Jesus is using hyperbole.

And I remind everyone it is completely inappropriate to form doctrine around only one or two verses that have been singled out and removed from their larger narratives and their respective contexts. The are only three verses in the entire Bible that use the phrase, "the great tribulation," and one of them is about the Jezebel in Thyatira and another is about the saints coming through the great tribulation. All three mentions have the saints seeing and experiencing the great tribulation. Pre-tribulational rapture theory is explicitly excluded by the text and since there is no explicit mention of Jesus physically coming to earth on Revelation chapters 15 through 20 all premillennialisms are contradicted, too. No interpretation of the Revelation text can be made to contradict prophetic passages like Psalm 110, which tells us Jesus (the Lord) remains seated in heaven until the LORD makes a footstool of his enemies. Then and only then will the Lord descend in the new city of peace where he is its temple and its light, from whom flow rivers of living water.

The great tribulation would be bad, but it would not kill everyone but less than eight people.

The onus is on you to prove the great tribulation will be worse than the flood that killed all flesh on land and air except that which was in the ark. That is THE most destructive and deadly event in human history. So stop posting over and over again and again the same argument and get off your lazy backside and prove the great tribulation will be worse than the flood.

Otherwise, the futurist interpretation of Matthew 24:21-22 conflicts with other scripture and that is one more reason in a very long list of reasons how and why modern futurism should be relegated to the trash bin of bad doctrine and something more consistent with scripture put in its place.

It is such that if God allowed it to run through as it is, there will be NO life left on earth. I believe that beats out Noah's flood as 8 > 0.

No, it doesn't because if the flood hadn't been shortened no life would exist. We're returning already covered ground here. None of the famines in the Bible would have left life on the planet had their days not been cut short. None of the plagues and other epidemics and pandemics would have left life on the planet if they hadn't been cut short. In point of fact, no flesh could survive God's judgment if the Law were the means of salvation . If the seven churches survive, then the great tribulation is not as lethal as the flood. There are too many conflicts with other scripture with the "worse than all others" literal reading.

Jesus is simply saying the tribulation will be cut short; it will not last forever and it will not kill everyone. It will NOT be like the flood that left only eight people alive.

Liken it to the report the stars will fall to earth (Rev. 12:4). We KNOW that is not to be read literally because the nearest star is four light years away. We'd see it coming long before it struck the earth and if it ever did collide with the earth the earth would be obliterated, pulverized into dust. There'd be no earth for the second, third, fourth, fifth, and all the rest of the third of the stars to collide with. By the time the second star arrived there'd be nothing left of the earth with which the star could collide. Not to mention the fact the entire creation's gravitational and magnetic field would be thrown into disarray and all life everywhere (if there is any) would likely cease to exist.

Matthew 24:21-22 cannot be read literally without contradicting other scripture and scripture never contradicts itself.

So God shortened the period for the sake of the elect. It is simple, if you are being honest. Or you can believe that the flood is worse, and Jesus lied. Your choice.

No, there is another option. Jesus was speaking with hyperbole, just as he had many, many times throughout all four of the gospels.

You need to clean your glasses.

And you need to stop making snotty comments about others and keep the posts about the posts.

So Jesus lied. Got it.

No one here has said that. Occam's Razor. The simplest, most scripturally consistent explanation is Jesus was speaking with hyperbole, not lying, and not to be taken literally.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Holy Ghost did not say "the" antichrist, as one, but antichrist shall come, even as many had in John's days, but so many more will come during the little season of Revelation 20 ~ the great tribulation period, which is strictly spiritual in nature ~ per Christ's teaching from Matthew 24.

Red, that verse in the NKJV does include the word "THE" in front of "Antichrist". "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that THE Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." One main individual was going to arise out of all the other many antichrists present in John's days - even in the NKJV (as well as many of the other translations which you say you do not accept).

Moreover, Christ said that those "false christs" were going to be reported by the false prophets to be "in the secret chambers". Those "secret chambers" were two very specific rooms in the second Temple called "the chamber of secrets". One of these was used to collect anonymous donations for the poor, to be dispensed anonymously at intervals. The other collected donations for temple maintenance.

Once that second temple was torn down, the "chamber of secrets" was destroyed along with it. No so-called "false christ" today could possibly be reported to be in a "secret chamber" that hasn't existed for almost 2,000 years. Therefore, that prediction of the "false christs" and the "false prophets" promoting them had to take place while there was still a "secret chamber" in existence before that second temple was torn down.

That "last hour" John was writing about back in the first century has not been extended for the 2,000 years. It came and went long ago.

 

[Josheb]

There will be great tribulation, such as never been seen before, and will never be seen again. It is such that if God allowed it to run through as it is, there will be NO life left on earth. I believe that beats out Noah's flood as 8 > 0. So God shortened the period for the sake of the elect. It is simple, if you are being honest. Or you can believe that the flood is worse, and Jesus lied. Your choice.

That pits a hypothetical against and actuality.

If the great tribulation is actually worse than the actual flood then, and only then, will the great tribulation be worse than the flood. If the great tribulation does not kill everyone but seven or fewer people, then it is not worse than anything ever experience in biblical history. God shortened the days of tribulation for the sake of the elect just as He always has. The evil in Noah's day was so bad every intent of every heart was only evil all the time but God still spared eight. He could have wiped the entire planet free of all human life and started over but He didn't. He selected eight people and destroyed the rest. He should both justice and grace. There is nothing particularly novel about God cutting short tribulation and there isn't anything particularly novel in an unfettered tribulation killing everyone.

Jesus was simply describing the severity of the pending events and assuring his listeners God would be merciful and gracious (and NOT like the flood where He killed everyone but eight).

 

[Josheb]

If you listen to John MacArthurs sermon on the Olivet discourse, he brings in what the Jews believed about eschatology before Jesus ever came to Earth.

I listen to MacArthur almost every day. His teachings on Christology, soteriology, hamartiology and other doctrines is often very good but his eschatology is very bad.

The Jews were often wrong.

Christians who examine Judaism may or may not be doing good. Discernment is necessary for two reasons: 1) Judaism was often wrong and when Christians use Jewish theology to explain Christian theology they should stay away from the Jewish errors, and 2) Judaization must be guarded against. Christianity is is not Judaism. Judaizing the Christian faith was repudiated in the epistolary. ANY teacher who fails to recognize these problems - John MacArthur or not - will end up teaching bad doctrine.

For example, The Jews got the priesthood wrong. They got the monarchy wrong. They got the temple wrong. Every single one of these errors influenced their theology and, as a consequence, their theology was wrong. Their theology was so misguided that when the Messiah stood right in front of them, they not only did not recognize him (because he did not fit their theology) they conspired to have him murdered. The priesthood was originally supposed to be integrated with the civil rule Melchizedek, the Judges, Jesus, and the "royal priests" are examples of God's desired objective and purpose. The Jews rebelled against all four. God told the Jews He did not want them to have a king and took their request for a king to be a rejection of Him as their king. God does not live in houses built by human hands and God told Daivd the one to build His temple would be a descendant of David's and God's Son and in the New Testament (Acts 2:30) we learn the promised throne was the resurrection, and NOT a chair made of wood and gold.

The Jews got ALL of that wrong so if John MacArthur does not teach those facts then he has Judaized Christianity and adulterated Christian doctrine with bad Jewish doctrine.

So do as I recommended: listen with Bible in hand and open because MacArthur's eschatology is bad and he does not exegete scripture well.

 

[Josheb]

.

Since Israel is at the very heart of all of it, the Old Testament is a big part of the key as to what happens.

The Old Testament is a big part of the key, but Israel is NOT at the very heart of the tribulation period other than the fact Israel was going to be destroyed in judgment.

Everyone focuses on Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation but Matthew 24 is only one chapter in a five chapter narrative that begins in Matthew 21 with Jesus return to Jerusalem the day after he cleaned out the temple. That narrative ends with the Jewish leaders plotting to kill Jesus. Five chapters cover a single day in Jesus' preaching and the entirety of chapter 24 stems from the judgment he declared on the Pharisees in the prior chapter.

As far as Revelation goes, Israel is mentioned only three times in the entire book of Revelation and not a single one of those mentions is about the geo-political nation-state Israel. LOOK IT UP! Look it up and verify what I just said. There are more than 340 Old Testament references in Revelation, but the book is not about Israel.
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[Mr GLee]

Christ did not say this tribulation period would be the "worst". Wrong word. He said there would not be tribulation "SUCH AS" that Great Tribulation, either before or after that. This meant a certain KIND of tribulation that had never before or would ever in the future be experienced.

That certain KIND of tribulation was having the entire Satanic realm imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem until it was destroyed in AD 70. God destroyed all the members of the Satanic realm at that point. That means this KIND of tribulation will never happen to any location or people ever again. Never before or since AD 70 had any nation ever experienced this complete, seven-fold presence of the Satanic realm among them.

And since Christ said He would return "IMMEDIATELY AFTER" this tribulation, this, too, has been fulfilled history long ago. A second bodily resurrection event in AD 70 took place at Christ's second coming return, as He had promised before that generation had passed away. And as I have said before, we are now waiting for the third bodily resurrection event at Christ's coming yet again in our future.

The flood a warning not to be unevenly yoked Christians with non-christians and destroy the spiritual seed ,Christ.

Onan spilled his seeing no value in the unseen things of God. Esau sold his birth rite for a cup of hairy goat soup. Cain the silencing of the gospel

Exactly, , different kinds of tribulations . Kings in Israel the abomination of desolation a great tribulation Making our invisible King of kings without effect

Set side that whole time period to be used as a parable a figure of God's speech the signified at the time of reformation .A doctrine that seems to be in general avoided for some reason ?

Hebrews 9: 8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

One sufferings like never before or ever again the "first century reformation" under the law of faith .God's labor of love working in Christians .

The shadows of the carnal law that did nothing to the user was used as a gospel sign to the world. The old testament ceremonies that looked ahead to the sufferings of Christ beforehand became sight at the time of reformation.

1 Peter 1: 11 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time (reformation) the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The first century reformation. . . . . the beginning the lasts days of Christianity restoring the government back to our invisible God to the period of Judges men and woman prophets sent as apostles . . prophesying . . from all tribes as nations or families of the world . .a gospel explosion great tribulation for the Jew that was trusting their own dying flesh

The time of reformation prophesied by Joel the apostle

Again restoring the government of God to judges men and women .No woman when Kings were in israel a men's only club and no gentiles anther wall that separated the Jewish venerable males from the rest of the world prophets sent a apostles messenger with the gospel

Apostles dying mankind are not the source of our new born again faith. God alone is

.Acts 2:15-17King James Version For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[Red Baker]

Consider this. If you follow the tribulation as laid out in Revelation, what do we find at the very end?

Greetings again TMSO~You asked:

Consider this. If you follow the tribulation as laid out in Revelation, what do we find at the very end?

Just as I said above~the world ( Gog and Magog ) to bring them against the camp of the saints, the very elect, who have fled from the false churches in Judea ..... or, the place where God is suppose to be worship ~ where now the man of sin sits and rules therein, leading a bunch goats who have no true love of the word of God. It is now upon us if one would only open his eyes, or just take a bold stand upon thus saith the Lord and refuse to compromise and see where that will land you...out side of the churches in mystery Babylon! The mini pope behind the pulpit will make sure you are not welcome in his church. Afterall, he's in God place here in this world over sheep that he is pastoring.

The only people still standing are the elect.

What bible are you reading from? The Cotton patch one? As a matter of truth, in the last days only few of the elect can be found, very few in numbers, very few. Much like the days of Noah, wherein only eight souls were within the ark once God begin to appoint folks to be destroyed. Only three escape Sodom and they had to be taken out by force! No pun intended, but truly you are are thinking using only the word of God.

Kind of like how Jesus said that if the times were not shortened, there would be no flesh saved, but God shortened the days for the sake of the elect. If the days continued, the elect would eventually be wiped out, and then God would wipe out everyone else. There would be no flesh left.

TMSO, you have not learned yet how to rightly divide the word of truth. I gave the true sense of Matthew 24:22 above~once more:

Matthew 24:22-24~"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Right here within these three scriptures it clearly tells us what Jesus meant by saying: "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:" Because the mass of false prophets and their seemly gifts will be so powerful that if God did not shortened the little season, just before his coming, then NO FLESH WOULD HAVE WOULD BE SAVED from the the art of these false prophets deceiving folks. Saved is used in a practical sense referring to being saved with a true understanding of God's truth and a true understanding of the times of the season in which they were living in! Selah.

TMSO, the brother above Josheb, has proved Noah's day is not comparable to any day as far as men losing the natural life and being kill ~ yet you are claiming that there's a time coming when only a few people will be living on this earth ~ sir, you are not even allowing sound judgement to guide you even with something a simple as this, not sure if you are even capable of understanding what I'm trying to say to you. No pun intended, but facts are facts.

Again the great tribulation period is spiritual in nature. We hope to prove this moving forward.

A quick question. Why is the rest of predictive prophecy in the Bible literally fulfilled, but this is spiritual? When did God change? When did God say something He didn't mean? If you look at what is happening in the world today, right now, Russia is the only thing that will determine if what is going on right now is the war prophesied in Ezekiel, or not. That's it. So, where do we stand if what is happening right now proves to be a fulfillment of Ezekiel?

Coming back to address this. RB

 

[Mr GLee]

Genesis 6 the warning not to be unevenly yoked right after the flood it continued .On the last day he will divide by fire

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye (sons of God) not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: (Daughters of men) for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

 

[EarlyActs]

Genesis 6 the warning not to be unevenly yoked right after the flood it continued .On the last day he will divide by fire

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye (sons of God) not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: (Daughters of men) for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

unless it was about rebellious angels getting involved with human women. There are related references in Jude, and Book of Enoch.

 

[EarlyActs]

That's the wrong application of the "days of vengeance", which was going to be a Great Tribulation period concentrated on the country of Judea. "There shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE", Christ said. That was not all the people living in the whole world. That was in particular the land of Israel and the people of Israel who would be experiencing that "great distress". Vengeance was going to be exacted upon those who had been the "betrayers and murderers" of Christ, who had slain the prophets and servants of the Lord. It was also vengeance exacted upon the city Jerusalem which had brought about that persecution of God's prophets and servants during its history.

Some of God's elect were in the city of Jerusalem during its cataclysmic ending from AD 66-70. For those elect's sake, God shortened the days that it took to bring Jerusalem down.

Of course there is. I wouldn't write about the destruction of the entire Satanic realm in AD 70 if I hadn't found evidence for this from scripture.



No, scripture never said the planet earth would be destroyed. Peter spoke of the earth (tes ges - meaning the land of Israel) which would be burned up along with the works in it. Judea's citites were definitely razed and / or put to the torch by the Romans in the years from AD 66-70, and the "works" such as the fabulous temple complex and the city of Jerusalem was laid level with the ground.

And scripture does teach a third bodily coming, which would also be a bodily coming just like Christ's second coming back in AD 70; which was from heaven, and also visible at that time to those who pierced Him.

You are totally wrong about Peter if you mean 2 Peter 3. Couldn't just be Israel. No cataclysm could be smaller than whole earth, once you know what systems were affect.

 

[Mr GLee]

unless it was about rebellious angels getting involved with human women. There are related references in Jude, and Book of Enoch.

Sons of God called the renown . The word renown used 11 times referring to giants or heros . used in two ways .1# to represent the family of God as giants of faith Christ empowerd like David or 2# like Goliath a literal giant as renown of the enemy one little round stone right between the eyes he fell forward . One little shove from behind

Numbers 16:2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:

Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

1 John 3King James Version Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Red Baker]

A quick question. Why is the rest of predictive prophecy in the Bible literally fulfilled, but this is spiritual? When did God change? When did God say something He didn't mean?

Part one~

TMSO,

God always said what He means! Just not in the way we think He should.

Matthew 11:14,15~"And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Here is a prophecy concerning the coming of Elijah, but it was a predictive prophecy forthtelling of the coming of John the Baptist!

What is the lesson here? Scriptures must be given their proper sense in order to understand them. John the Baptist came in the same power, spirit of the great prophet of old! God said exactly what he meant.

As has been effectively demonstrated by scripture, the problem with Premillennial eschatology is that it's theologians expect everything to be fulfilled in a literalistic worldly fashion. But God wants His people to worship Him in Spirit and truth, with wisdom to compare the spiritual things with Spiritual things (1st Corinthians 2:13) to come to true discernment of scripture. When we look at the Old Testament prophesies of his coming, we read (Isaiah 40:1) "Comfort ye Jerusalem, her warfare is accomplished, her iniquity is pardoned." Can we read that as a literal city with iniquity pardoned, worldly wars ended where the city is at peace? Of course not. At least, not according to the authority of scripture. True wisdom is in comparing spiritual things with the Spiritual, where we see that God tells us this prophesy was fulfilled with the coming of Christ. How? Because He was the Prince of Peace who brought Peace on earth (as the Angels proclaimed) that Jerusalem's warfare "with God" was ended. Only in Christ was iniquity pardoned and man made at peace with God.

The same with Isaiah's prophesy of Elijah making the highway in the desert straight that was crooked. Was that a prophesy of a literal highway also TMSO? Is Elijah or John prophesied to be a literal highway construction worker who was destined to measure and straighten roads in the desert? Your understanding said yes! Again, the obvious answer is, of course not. The spiritual picture God paints here in using imagery of crooked highways is in illustrating John would come to make things right. To set things straight in a perverse land, not to literally be fixing crooked roads. Making our paths straight has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with literal highways. But making our spiritual paths straight is "likened unto" making a crooked highway straight.

So what in the world would make the Premillennial theologians believe that in the midst of all this prophesy using spiritual imagery by the Lord, that He would insert Elijah to come back to earth literally? That's the way man thinks. That's the way the world thinks. That's the way man teaches. But it is not prophesy understood in the wisdom of the Holy Spirit.

1st Corinthians 2:13

• "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

The Holy Spirit is the teacher, through the Word. And comparing the Spiritual with the Spiritual, we know by that Word that John the Baptist was Elijah that was to come in power and go before the Lord. In fact, God doesn't leave us guessing. He very unambiguously tells us how He meant that prophesy. He tells us that John came in the Spirit and Power of Elijah, not literally as Elijah.

Luke 1:17~"And he shall go before Him in the SPIRIT and POWER of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people Prepared for the Lord."

Not literally Elias (Elijah), but John came in the spirit of Elijah, and in the power of Elijah. In other words, someone who comes in the spirit and power of Elijah and performs a similar ministry. That was what the prophesy always intended that God's people were to understand. It never meant that Elijah would be reincarnated and come again to earth before Christ. For example, there is the prophesy of David coming, and it speaks of Christ. Or Christ coming as David. It doesn't mean that those prophesies meant Christ was literally David. But that Spiritually David was a "type" or shadow pointing to Christ. Or that Christ was the seed of David prophesied to come. In passages such as Hosea 3:5 and Ezekiel 34:23-24, the Messianic king is called "David." But this does not mean that Christ is a reincarnation of David, or that David was prophesied to return to earth to reign. Likewise, this is the same sense in which John the Baptist is properly called "Elijah" in Malachi 4. If anyone were to ask Christ at His first advent if He were David, he would tell them no, He is Jesus Christ. But that didn't then mean that He didn't fulfill all the scriptures (Matthew 22:42-45) concerning David. And it's the same principle with John the Baptist. He wasn't Elijah, he was John. But he was the fulfillment of the prophesy of Elijah. And in truth, he makes that abundantly clear right in that very chapter that they quote. The same one where John says he is not literally Elijah, he also says that he is the Elijah of that prophesy of scripture. Theologians quote verse 21, but do they go on to quote 22-23? In other words, do they take his words of verse 21 "in context" of his words in verses 22-23 where he declares that he is the one that the prophecy of Isaiah spoke of. He is the one who was prophesied to come before the great and terrible day of the Lord to prepare the way. i.e., he was the Elijah of prophesy that Christ said he was.

 

[Red Baker]

Continue form above.....

John 1:22-23~"Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I AM THE VOICE of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord, As said The Prophet Esaias."

Again, the problem is not that it's not clear, or that he wasn't the fulfillment just as the prophet Isaiah said, the problem is that some people simply do not want to "receive" John ahs fulfillment because of doctrines they hold that are incompatible with this truth. Nevertheless, there is no future fulfillment of Elijah coming before the Lord, John was the fulfillment of that prophesy. Scripture reveals that John would come in the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17). So he was not, and nor did he ever claim to be, the actual reincarnation or person of Elijah.

Unfortunately, sometimes it seems the more scripture you give showing this, the more some seem to deny it, or to claim that it doesn't "really" mean this. One theologian declared, "the truth is, John the Baptist was not the Elijah yet to come, but he was the Elijah for the spiritual kingdom then being ushered in." The logical translation of this is that He was Elijah of prophesy, but he wasn't Elijah of prophesy. If that sounds nonsensical, it is. Because if John wasn't the "Elijah yet to come," then why did Jesus say that he was. Jesus said, "this is he" that was spoken of in the prophesy of Isaiah. And if He wasn't the Elijah prophesied, why does scripture continually say that he was? It makes no sense because it's all just rationalization by the proponents of Premillennialism.

All of the scriptures that I have borne witness to clearly say that John indeed was Elijah of prophesy. They aren't really ambiguous, they aren't mysterious, and they aren't hard to understand. Not only that He "was" Elijah, but that He was the same Elijah prophesied in scripture to come. The very same Elijah that Isaiah prophesied about. But only for those who would RECEIVE it. For even in those days, Christ knew, and wanted us to know, that the heart of man is not to receive the love of truth in the Word of God.

Matthew 11:13~"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you will Receive it, this Is Elijah, which was for to come."

This "is" the truth. Note carefully the theologians words that John was NOT the Elijah yet to come, and then note the Words of Our Saviour Jesus Christ declaring this "IS" Elijah which was for to Come! While they deliberately ignore all the scriptures and blindly hold to these obvious errors, the testimony of Christ is sure. ...If we will RECEIVE IT, Jesus says! the question then is, "will we?" Who's word are we going to receive, theologians or God's? In my book it's no Contest. But because of indoctrination many may not want to receive truth. And truth is, many will never receive it. At least not as long as they are led by pride that they keep ignoring the pertinent scriptures. Why would Christ say, "If you will receive it?"
....Because He Knows there are those who WON'T!

Why would "man" not believe John was this Elijah, and believe that this must be fulfilled in the future? ..because he will not receive it.

John the Baptist was not a reincarnation of Elijah, nor does the scriptures teach such views as reincarnation. Was The Prophesy of Elijah's Coming before Christ fulfilled? Indeed it was. For John was the fulfillment of the prophecy because he came before Christ to minister in the same Spirit and the same power that Elijah did. There is no contradiction~predictive prophecy fulfilled~and all of God's children said....AMEN!

 

[Red Baker]

When did God say something He didn't mean? If you look at what is happening in the world today, right now, Russia is the only thing that will determine if what is going on right now is the war prophesied in Ezekiel, or not. That's it. So, where do we stand if what is happening right now proves to be a fulfillment of Ezekiel?

I'll come back and address this later..

I didn't know Russia even played a part in Bible prophecy any more than Israel does, or the USA, or any other nation, other than the holy nation of God's elect ( Jews and Gentiles ) which is the central part of Bible prophecy, the apple of God's eyes!

 

[Mr GLee]

Here is a prophecy concerning the coming of Elijah, but it was a predictive prophecy forthtelling of the coming of John the Baptist!

What is the lesson here? Scriptures must be given their proper sense in order to understand them. John the Baptist came in the same power, spirit of the great prophet of old! God said exactly what he meant.

As has been effectively demonstrated by scripture, the problem with Premillennial eschatology is that it's theologians expect everything to be fulfilled in a literalistic worldly fashion. But God wants His people to worship Him in Spirit and truth, with wisdom to compare the spiritual things with Spiritual things (1st Corinthians 2:13) to come to true discernment of scripture. When we look at the Old Testament prophesies of his coming, we read (Isaiah 40:1) "Comfort ye Jerusalem, her warfare is accomplished, her iniquity is pardoned." Can we read that as a literal city with iniquity pardoned, worldly wars ended where the city is at peace? Of course not. At least, not according to the authority of scripture. True wisdom is in comparing spiritual things with the Spiritual, where we see that God tells us this prophesy was fulfilled with the coming of Christ. How? Because He was the Prince of Peace who brought Peace on earth (as the Angels proclaimed) that Jerusalem's warfare "with God" was ended. Only in Christ was iniquity pardoned and man made at peace with God.

Yes, Elijah represented the power of the word and Moses the law giver. . the source of the words. . To the law and prophets (sola scriptura) If they speak not according to that word (one a mixture of two) then we can say there is no light in their path just simply lying wonders the opposite of Christ powerful faith "Let there be" and the testimony of the prophets say it is very good God alone good.

No sign was given in regard to the last day. We have the perfect sealed with 7 seals till the end of time. We are warned before the last chapter of the book of prophecy (past, present, future)

Jesus said it a evil generation that makes him a circus seal do a work show us a miracle then we will believe .

No need to give a sign in respect to the end of the world. He will leave like a thief in the night we can watch like Noah but again no need to know the last day or how many or from which nation

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
I
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

 

[Wordsmith]

That certain KIND of tribulation was having the entire Satanic realm imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem until it was destroyed in AD 70. God destroyed all the members of the Satanic realm at that point. That means this KIND of tribulation will never happen to any location or people ever again. Never before or since AD 70 had any nation ever experienced this complete, seven-fold presence of the Satanic realm among them.

All one has to do is look at the recent atrocities in Israel to know this is not a reasonable doctrine.

Any doctrine that states there is no demonic (satanic) realm at work in the world today is blatantly false and extremely naive.

 

[3 Resurrections]

All one has to do is look at the recent atrocities in Israel to know this is not a reasonable doctrine.

Any doctrine that states there is no demonic (satanic) realm at work in the world today is blatantly false and extremely naive.

On the contrary, any doctrine which states that mankind cannot commit evil on this level today without Satan or his devils being behind it is a doctrine which has no conception of the evil which the heart of fallen mankind can create all on its own. It is incredibly naive to think that mankind is incapable of atrocities without Satan's "help".

Adam and Eve once tried to pass the blame to everyone else but themselves for the Fall in the Garden of Eden. Apparently, this attempt to pass the blame to Satan for mankind's evil actions is still an ongoing issue until this day - even without the presence of Satan or his demonic realm being around anymore. Time to "man up" and admit responsibility for our own sins, folks.

The very reason why God eradicated the members of the Satanic realm back in AD 70 was to show mankind just how corrupt their own fallen nature was, even without Satan and his minions being around to provide an impetus for wickedness.