When is the Tribulation period?

[Wordsmith]

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9.

Seems to me in Rev 1:9 John understood himself to be (presently) in the Tribulation.


Thoughts?

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Christians of all ages have endured "tribulation" but that is not what Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24.


Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

A specific time "then", a specific intensity, such as never been before. There has not been 2000 years of the type of tribulation Jesus described in Matthew 24.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Not the general suffering or "tribulation" many believers endure and have endured throughout the church age. It is something worse.

As bad as sometimes have been, there has never been a historic time of tribulation so bad that the extinction of humanity was imminent and required the intervention of Christ. Proved by the fact He has not yet returned in power and glory seen by all the tribes of the earth. Nor has He gathered His elect.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

IMMEDIATELY after this specific tribulation which will be in our future is the coming of the Son of Man!

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Christ has not yet returned with power and glory, the tribes of the earth have not yet seem Him coming in the clouds of heaven. This particular tribulation period has not yet happened as described in Matthew 24.

Individual tribulation and suffering is endured by many Christians but this has nothing to do with the specific time period Jesus referred to in Matthew 24.

 

[sawdust]

So you feel that the tribulation John was ascribing to himself was the period before Christ returned to earth.... as in AD70 as many preterists say
happened? His return?

I think the tribulation John ascribed to himself was the general tribulation that all believers (who seek to do the will of God) have suffered since the fall.

The Great Tribulation I believe is a specific 7 year period as recorded in Daniel's last week and Revelation Chps.6-18. It is about Israel not the Church. I believe the Church will be in heaven being prepared to rule alongside her husband as she is the bride of Christ. The Great Tribulation is also known as Jacob's Trouble, not the Church's Trouble.

 

[Marty]

Thank you for discussing. There are 5 kingdoms mentioned in Dan.2 and thus one is yet to come. I agree that God judged the kingdoms represented by the head, arms & chest, belly & thighs, & legs but not the feet and toes.

The whole represents the times of Gentiles and they are still ruling.

God`s kingdom has and is overall from the heavens to the earth. It is all He has & is & will rule over. God never gave any of His great kingdom away, it is just the rebellious rulers that He is dealing with.

I do agree there is a spiritual component to God`s great kingdom and that is in the hearts of all who turn to God throughout time.

But the rock that destroyed the kingdoms that you say were destroyed struck the feat and toes.

 

[Eleanor]

Hi Carbon,

I agree that the Body of Christ has suffered tribulation since its beginning. However, (you would expect that from me, ) what the Lord was referring to in Matt. 24: 21 is obviously yet to come.
`For there will be great tribulation, SUCH AS HAS NOT BEEN since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

Mt 24:15-22 sounds like the destruction of Jerusalem, which Josephus, the Jewish historian who was there, describes in almost identical language.

And the `until this time` refers to the context of the chapter (24) to the Lord`s coming.
Also, the times of the Gentiles ruling the world is not yet finished.
`And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. ` (Luke 21: 24)

 

[Eleanor]

View attachment 513

Keeping in mind that Da 2:31-45, concerning 626 BC to 476 AD, has been fulfilled,
including the kingdom that will never be destroyed and endures forever of Dan 2:44-45, where

"in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43), which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, 8:21); i.e.,
at Christ's first coming, the Messianic kingdom was set up, a kingdom that endures forever (Da 2:44), and
perfectly corresponding to NT apostolic teaching in Jesus' words that

the kingdom of God is not future, it is now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28),
it is not earthly, it is not of this world (Jn 18:36), it is spiritual, hidden and within (Lk 17:20-21), rather than heavenly, and
it is not temporal, but everlasting (Lk 1:33), enduring forever and never ending (Da 2:44).

Needless to say, "never ending" allows for no other kingdom of God, temporal or otherwise.

 

[Eleanor]

Thank you for discussing. There are 5 kingdoms mentioned in Dan.2 and thus one is yet to come.

It came during the time of the four kings (626 BC to 476 AD), and is the Messianic kingdom that
is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:38), will never be destroyed, but endure forever (Da 2:44),
which is God's spiritual kingdom, invisible and within (Lk 17:20-21), not "heavenly."

Christ is the rock whose kingdom set up at his first coming destroys all worldly kingdoms, leaving only his kingdom whose authority will extend over all creation (Da 2:35), including the new heaven and new earth.

I agree that God judged the kingdoms represented by the head, arms & chest, belly & thighs, & legs but not the feet and toes.

The feet and toes are the kingdoms into which Rome was divided.

The whole represents the times of Gentiles and they are still ruling.
God`s kingdom has and is overall from the heavens to the earth. It is all He has & is & will rule over. God never gave any of His great kingdom away, it is just the rebellious rulers that He is dealing with.
I do agree there is a spiritual component to God`s great kingdom and that is in the hearts of all who turn to God throughout time.

However, your location in time of this kingdom is not in agreement with NT apostolic teaching that the second coming of Jesus is the end of time, where

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39),
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence:
the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)
(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

Time is over, eternity follows the judgment.
The kingdom of God Jesus set up at his first coming is one and the same kingdom of God for all eternity.
NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, as distinct from prophetic riddles subject to more than one interpretation, allows for no other kingdom of God, either earthly or heavenly.

As is typical in dispensationalism, the one kingdom of God presented in NT apostolic teaching is divided into two by literal interpretation of figurative prophecy.

 

[Arial]

`And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. ` (Luke 21: 24)

This could also refer to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d. The entire Mosaic covenant worship and atonement system was destroyed then, never to return. The line of the priesthood is lost. The old passed away, the new come.

The time of the Gentiles being fulfilled could mean the fulfillment of believing Gentiles and believing Jews as becoming one covenant community, and the gospel beginning to spread to all nations.

 

[sawdust]

The time of the Gentiles being fulfilled could mean the fulfillment of believing Gentiles and believing Jews as becoming one covenant community, and the gospel beginning to spread to all nations.

I don't see how that could be (the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles) as that community came into effect, at the very least, when the Spirit came upon Cornelius and his household (Acts 10) which, occurred prior to the fall of Jerusalem.

 

[Josheb]

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9.

Seems to me in Rev 1:9 John understood himself to be (presently) in the Tribulation.


Thoughts?

I would say living in exile on Patmos was a tribulation. That John's exile was considered by John - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and direct of God the Son - a part of the tribulation being experienced by his readers is an undeniable indication the tribulation he was experiencing was quite widespread. One of the seven churches written to in the first few chapters are explicitly stated to be experiencing tribulation (Smyrna), and the Jezebel of Thyatira is threatened with "the great tribulation," but reading the contents of each letter readily shows each was suffering travail from both within and without. Sounds like tribulation to me.

As a partial-preterist, I'm inclined to read much of what John wrote to have occurred near to the time he wrote it, as well as much of its contents "things he'd already seen, things that existed at the time of his writing and things that would come after what he had seen and was seeing (Rev. 1:19). By that metric much of Revelation is long past, perhaps even as much as two-thirds!

We know the ends of the ages had fallen upon the first century Christians because Paul explicitly stated it thusly in 1 Corinthians 10:11. Not the beginning of the ages, but the ends. Not just one ending or just one age, but multiple ends to multiple ages. Curious statement given Jesus stating the harvest occurs at the end of the age (Mt. 13).

 

[Josheb]

Hi Carbon,

I agree that the Body of Christ has suffered tribulation since its beginning. However, (you would expect that from me, ) what the Lord was referring to in Matt. 24: 21..........

The op does not ask about Matthew 24:21. The op asks about Rev. 1:9, and specifically about John experiencing tribulation.

View attachment 509

THE GREAT IMAGE.

God revealed to the King of Babylon a vision of a Great Image.......................

THE GREAT IMAGE.

The greatest emphasis and the most description was....................

View attachment 513

What does any of that have to do with thr specific tribulation of Revelation 1:9 that John and his first century readers experiencing?

As has been said there is a big difference between just `tribulation` and the `great tribulation.`

What was John's tribulation?

 

[Josheb]

It is the final seven years prior to the return of Christ to the Earth. While some argue it is an indefinite period beginning from the time of the early Church, my counter to that is if we consider Daniel's last week as an indefinite period, we must also count his previous weeks as an indefinite time period and we know that his reckoning was in fact a precise time frame.

They're my thoughts.

Can you clarify that for me to make sure I am understanding the post correctly.

• John was experiencing tribulation, along with his first century readers.
• The tribulation is the seven years prior to Jesus Christ coming to earth.

Since seven years have come and gone since John's Revelation 1:9 tribulation..... is it being asserted the seven years have passed and Jesus has come to earth?

 

[Marilyn C]

This could also refer to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d. The entire Mosaic covenant worship and atonement system was destroyed then, never to return. The line of the priesthood is lost. The old passed away, the new come.

The time of the Gentiles being fulfilled could mean the fulfillment of believing Gentiles and believing Jews as becoming one covenant community, and the gospel beginning to spread to all nations.

Something to think about. Yet I see from God`s word that the `times of the Gentiles ruling` finishes when the Gentiles are no more trampling Jerusalem.

`And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.` (Luke 21: 24)

And that has not happened yet.

 

[Marilyn C]

The op does not ask about Matthew 24:21. The op asks about Rev. 1:9, and specifically about John experiencing tribulation.




What does any of that have to do with thr specific tribulation of Revelation 1:9 that John and his first century readers experiencing?

What was John's tribulation?

Hi Josheb,

Carbon wrote - Seems to me in Rev 1:9 John understood himself to be (presently) in the Tribulation. So, I was showing the difference between tribulation that believers go through and the `great tribulation` that is God`s wrath poured out on a rebellious world.

 

[Josheb]

I'd like to make an observation:

This opening post asks about one specific aspect of one specific verse and it does so within an explicitly stated context (the experience contemporary to John in the first century) but very few of these ops have any content related to what is specified in the op.

Why is that?

More importantly, why aren't the specifics of the op being addressed and discussed?

 

[Marilyn C]

But the rock that destroyed the kingdoms that you say were destroyed struck the feat and toes.

The `feet and toes,` the divided kingdom is still to come. The whole great Image is of the `times of the Gentiles` ruling the world and that will only finish as God`s word says when Jesus destroys the world`s armies surrounding Jerusalem. (Luke 21: 24, Zech. 14: 12)

 

[Josheb]

Hi Josheb,

Carbon wrote - Seems to me in Rev 1:9 John understood himself to be (presently) in the Tribulation. So, I was showing the difference between tribulation that believers go through and the `great tribulation` that is God`s wrath poured out on a rebellious world.

What does that have to do with the tribulation John was experiencing?

 

[Marilyn C]

What does that have to do with the tribulation John was experiencing?

John (and other believers down through the centuries) experience the onslaught of the enemy in many ways to try and `rob, kill and destroy,` them.

 

[Josheb]

John (and other believers down through the centuries) experience the onslaught of the enemy in many ways to try and `rob, kill and destroy,` them.

"Other believers down through history" is not the subject of this op. Not every thread in the eschatology board is an opportunity to assert one's individual eschatology en masse. Please give the forum's rules a re-read (especially rule 3).

 

[Marilyn C]

"Other believers down through history" is not the subject of this op. Not every thread in the eschatology board is an opportunity to assert one's individual eschatology en masse. Please give the forum's rules a re-read (especially rule 3).

Thank you for that correction.

 

[Josheb]

Thank you for that correction.

I encourage everyone here to be mindful of the op and discuss its content.