What if God, willing to. . . .

[Ritajanice]

am not sure I know what "Born Again" means to you in this case.

It means exactly what God’s word says ..I don’t need to read any scripture to know that.

Only after the rebirth did I go and buy a Bible and there it was exactly how the Spirit revealed himself to my heart/ spirit...

The Holy Spirit is the one who testifies Gods truth to our heart/ spirit, then the penned word backs that divine revelation to our spirit up...

 

[David1701]

I thought I would look this up in my copy I have in Accordance (Calvin's Commentary). Of 2 Peter 3:9
Not willing that any should perish. So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way.

But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world. 35

Calvin is wrong here. God is certainly willing that many should perish; but, he is not willing that any of his beloved elect should perish.

 

[Ritajanice]

Speaking for myself and not @atpollard ----though I think I am consistent with what he is saying: No we do not repent before we become born again, but because we have been born again. His post is referencing 2 Peter 3:9. The "all" God desires to come to repentance applies to all the elect, but not to those who he is writing to as the letter introduction shows he is writing to those who have already come to repentance. It is God's patience that is the reason for the delay in Christ's return. That is what is being discussed in the letter (and as an encouragement for them to stand firm in the faith amidst the persecution they were experiencing.)

God knows who He is giving to Jesus before they are ever born, and the number is fixed. Jesus will not return until the "last one comes through the door." Say amen here, because we were not born and would not be for thousands of years at the time Peter wrote the letter. The patience is God waiting for them to be born, to be called, to be regenerated and placed in Christ through faith. Come to repentance, i.e.hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him. The "delay" is a gathering of His flock.

Ok, well I see it very differently and experienced the rebirth very differently, if we aren’t brought to repentance by God first, then his Holy Spirit cannot indwell a sinner...we must repent of our sin first..even then God brings us to repentance/ Godly sorrow.

I became Born Again having never read a Bible...The Spirit Of God cannot indwell a sinner...our sins must be forgiven first..that’s my belief 100%.

 

[Ritajanice]

Come to repentance, i.e.hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him.

I don’t understand hear the voice of the shepherd only would I hear his voice as I was becoming Born Again, Of course I heard the Spirit as he was indwelling my spirit , when he was testifying with my spirit that we are Gods children, but before any of that happened, God brought me to believe in Jesus and he also brought me to repentance...I can only follow Jesus and understand that Jesus existed once my spirit became Born Again.

After that I have learnt everything I know from the Spirit of God..which is understood in our spirit, which can take years and has taken years to grow in the Spirit/Christ...all in God’s timing.

 

[atpollard]

Calvin is wrong here. God is certainly willing that many should perish; but, he is not willing that any of his beloved elect should perish.

I actually think Calvin might be describing Compatibalism.

• God makes an honest offer to ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION to repent and be saved (the narrow path is barred to none).
• ALL MEN are sinners and reject the offer (as John 3:19-20 describes).
• GOD refuses to take "no" for an answer in the case of those God has "CHOSEN/PREDESTINED" (Calvin: whom God "lays hold of"; John 6:44 "Father draws")

Perhaps I am reading my personal bias into Calvin's words, but maybe not.

 

[Alive]

It means exactly what God’s word says ..I don’t need to read any scripture to know that.

Only after the rebirth did I go and buy a Bible and there it was exactly how the Spirit revealed himself to my heart/ spirit...

The Holy Spirit is the one who testifies Gods truth to our heart/ spirit, then the penned word backs that divine revelation to our spirit up...

Its good to understand and keep in mind that God does not deal with all of His children in the same way at the same time along the journey as He works in us.

 

[atpollard]

It means exactly what God’s word says ..I don’t need to read any scripture to know that.

So you entered your mother's womb a second time? [John 3:4]
(just teasing)

[sigh]

• To some, a term like "the rebirth" means you spoke in "tongues".
• To others, it means God lifted the restraints of a fallen nature granting you free will to accept or reject the Gospel free of outside influences.
• To still others, it means that God changed your heart and made you a new creation ... your sin was forgiven.

Those EVENTS can all be pointed to verses of scripture with a shout "See here it is!" by those that want to see it.
Thus my reluctance to try and guess the meaning of "Christian-speak". Even after your explanation with more ambiguous 'Christian-speak" terms, I am unsure exactly what you are asking.

I told you the order of events in MY salvation (which is true for me, but like the warning: "use with caution: small sample size")
I told you what GOD and MAN each provide for salvation based on Ephesians 2:1-10.
I am honestly just not sure what more you are asking.

 

[Alive]

Calvin is wrong here. God is certainly willing that many should perish; but, he is not willing that any of his beloved elect should perish.

I am not sure that what you suggest is what Calvin says here.
He is not always easy to follow.

 

[Ritajanice]

Its good to understand and keep in mind that God does not deal with all of His children in the same way at the same time along the journey as He works in us.

Yes I know that and have already explained ..thanks.

 

[Ritajanice]

So you entered your mother's womb a second time? [John 3:4]
(just teasing)

[sigh]

• To some, a term like "the rebirth" means you spoke in "tongues".
• To others, it means God lifted the restraints of a fallen nature granting you free will to accept or reject the Gospel free of outside influences.
• To still others, it means that God changed your heart and made you a new creation ... your sin was forgiven.

Those EVENTS can all be pointed to verses of scripture with a shout "See here it is!" by those that want to see it.
Thus my reluctance to try and guess the meaning of "Christian-speak". Even after your explanation with more ambiguous 'Christian-speak" terms, I am unsure exactly what you are asking.

I told you the order of events in MY salvation (which is true for me, but like the warning: "use with caution: small sample size")
I told you what GOD and MAN each provide for salvation based on Ephesians 2:1-10.
I am honestly just not sure what more you are asking.

So you entered your mother's womb a second time? [John 3:4]
(just teasing)

[sigh]

• To some, a term like "the rebirth" means you spoke in "tongues".
• To others, it means God lifted the restraints of a fallen nature granting you free will to accept or reject the Gospel free of outside influences.
• To still others, it means that God changed your heart and made you a new creation ... your sin was forgiven.

Those EVENTS can all be pointed to verses of scripture with a shout "See here it is!" by those that want to see it.
Thus my reluctance to try and guess the meaning of "Christian-speak". Even after your explanation with more ambiguous 'Christian-speak" terms, I am unsure exactly what you are asking.

I told you the order of events in MY salvation (which is true for me, but like the warning: "use with caution: small sample size")
I told you what GOD and MAN each provide for salvation based on Ephesians 2:1-10.
I am honestly just not sure what more you are asking.

I’m not asking you anything, I explained how I became Born Of God’s seed.

There is only one way to be Born Of The Spirit...which is by the Living Spirit ,the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children.

Also.

​

◄ John 3:8 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” New Living Translation The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.” English Standard Version The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Berean Standard Bible The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 

[Arial]

I don’t understand hear the voice of the shepherd only would I hear his voice as I was becoming Born Again,

That is a reference to John 10 where Jesus is using a sheep and shepherd analogy to announce that He is the Good Shepherd. In verse 14 He says, "I am the good shepherd, I know my own and my own know me, 15. just as the Father knows me and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold,. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

24-30 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense" If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

It is not an audible hearing Jesus means here as we see. The analogy is very significant to the original hearers as the Jews culturally an agriculture people. They kept flocks. Here I will give you a bit of an insight into this significance that has to do with the nature and makeup of sheep---the very thing that made the analogy so profound and should have been easily understood.

In that culture, the flocks would go out with their shepherd who took them to pasture and watched over them. Each flock had its own shepherd. At night, for safety's sake, all the flocks were gathered into one pen, all mixed together. In the morning the flocks were separated into their own flock with their own shepherd, simply by voice. Sheep will only follow the voice of their own shepherd and no other voice. That is how sheep are and what they do.

So even though the voice in the analogy is audible, it is not in the reality of God's calling of His flock. We see in verse 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

They are God's sheep (children), He knows who they are and Jesus knows who they are, and when God calls them (new birth) they hear and they follow. How this happens cannot be defined as being in the same way for everyone. With @atpollard it was in one way. You another. My brother told God he wanted to know the truth whether he liked it or not. I was on a quest for the absolute truth and looked everywhere but Christianity as I though that had already been proven false. I gave up thinking I would never know it as absolute even if I did find it. And woke up one morning knowing every word in the Bible was true. And set about finding out what those words were, and was able to understand.

Bottom line---whatever the circumstances and details surrounding an individual conversion, our faith in the person and work of Jesus does not happen without first being born again.

 

[JIM]

.....and NOT perish!

Then why would God wait patiently for them to do so?

I'd be happy to help you understand monergism (Calvinism) better because it is quite comprehendible and firmly and thoroughly couched in God's word. Ligonier Ministries (R. C. Sproul) and monergism.com are two excellent resources for understanding that theological pov.

I have read Sproul and others. I thoroughly understand. I just disagree.

 

[Carbon]

I didn't understand any of that. I probably don't need to.

I don’t understand any of it either. I’m glad it’s not just me.

@Mr GLee would you mind explaining?

 

[Carbon]

Three brief points:

1. The ELECT were ELECT before their salvation, so Ephesians 2 applies to the same ELECT as 2 Peter 3.
2. If you believe the "saved" of Ephesians 2:1-10 involved no "repentance" because the word is not mentioned, then YOU have serious doctrinal comprehension issues far beyond this meager topic.
3. I can explain it TO you, but I cannot understand it FOR you ... that is above my pay grade [ask God to open your eyes].

Good luck, you have chosen a hard row to hoe.

2 Peter 3:9 = the ELECT that will repent and be saved in the future [including people like US that had not yet been born, but were FOREKNOWN by God, predestined, justified in Christ, but would be called, would repent, and will be glorified] are the reason that God has delayed His return ... He would not loose us by coming before the full number have been gathered into the Family of God ... an exact number known to the OMNISCIENT Father from the Beginning of the beginning.

That's why.

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

Am I understanding this right....we must repent before we become Born Again,

No, I do not believe that is what he means. Repentance is also granted by God.

...of course we must repent, but, only God can bring us to repentance/

Amen

Godly sorrow....I wouldn’t have known how...if I’ve got it wrong, apologies.

 

[Carbon]

Calvin is wrong here. God is certainly willing that many should perish; but, he is not willing that any of his beloved elect should perish.

Amen!

 

[David1701]

I actually think Calvin might be describing Compatibalism.

• God makes an honest offer to ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION to repent and be saved (the narrow path is barred to none).
• ALL MEN are sinners and reject the offer (as John 3:19-20 describes).
• GOD refuses to take "no" for an answer in the case of those God has "CHOSEN/PREDESTINED" (Calvin: whom God "lays hold of"; John 6:44 "Father draws")

Perhaps I am reading my personal bias into Calvin's words, but maybe not.

Is it "an honest offer", or is it a promise to all who believe?

 

[Alive]

I hope he actually reads what Calvin is writing here. It can be easy to glide over some points.

Yup…Calvin makes several points by way of leading to the final conclusion in that paragraph. It might seem he is arguing for something else until the end. He was a man that tried to be over the top thorough. Incredible endurance.

 

[Carbon]

The Spirit Of God cannot indwell a sinner...our sins must be forgiven first..that’s my belief 100%.

Of course the Holy Spirit indwells sinners, otherwise they would never believe.

Jesus said in john:3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[Alive]

Is it "an honest offer", or is it a promise to all who believe?

I might make an offer to someone knowing they will decline. This does not make my offer dishonest.