What if God, willing to. . . .

[David1701]

Does it make sense to use use 2 Peter 3:9 to teach God is not willing that any should perish, when Rom 9:22 declares God is willing for reprobates to perish.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter.

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Romans 9.

After reading these, does it not make sense that 2 Peter 3:9 is for the elect?

We always need to look at the context.

2 Pet. 3:8,9 (Webster)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Firstly, the "But", in verse 8, tells us that what follows is a contrast from what went before (which was about the ungodly, who scoff and mock).

Secondly, the "beloved", immediately following the "But", confirms this - what follows is about God's beloved elect.

Thirdly, in verse 9, we are told that God is long-suffering toward us (the beloved), which means that he is not willing that any of us should perish but that all of his beloved elect should come to repentance (and we all do, by the effectual grace of God).

Fourthly, this is also confirmed by a verse later in the passage: 2 Pet. 3:15.

2 Pet. 3:15 (Webster) And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, hath written to you;

Here, we see that the long-suffering of the Lord towards us (declared in verse 9) is salvation. In other words, God's long-suffering of his beloved elect, before we are saved, is to bring about our salvation, so that we do not perish before God saves us.

Fifthly, to take verse 9 as referring to everyone without exception is to turn it into wishful thinking, by a hand-wringing, impotent "god". This misinterpretation borders on blasphemy.

 

[Josheb]

Re: 2 Peter 3:9



Here you go …

To what repentance would the elect need to come?

 

[Josheb]

.

I await the presentation of a case proving that position.

Sorry josheb, but I do not believe you have a case.

Not my op. You're the one supposed to be making the case for what you believe, not shifting the onus fallaciously on me, ignoring what was posted, insinuating ad hominem and failing to make the case for which I am waiting.

Dr. R. C. Sproul states, This will describes God’s attitude. It defines what is pleasing to Him. For example, God takes no delight in the death of the wicked, yet He most surely wills or decrees the death of the wicked. God’s ultimate delight is in His own holiness and righteousness. When He judges the world, He delights in the vindication of His own righteousness and justice, yet He is not gleeful in a vindictive sense toward those who receive His judgment.

Which is what I have posted many times.

I wonder if you know what Calvin taught on this?

I quoted Calvin's commentary specifically on 2 Peter 3:9. Perhaps there is some other commentary he wrote on the verse you could provide for the participants in this thread to read.

It may do you good to read around in other theologians and commentaries. Perhaps Owen, or Ames.

I would say I await your posting of their commentary on 2 Peter 3:9, since it is your op, but I will be taking my leave of the thread because of the following.....

You seem to make the Father and the Son disagree at times.
You have God wanting the reprobate to repent and believe, this is a serious thing.
Then you have Jesus only praying for the elect, not the reprobate.
So what you have is the Father wanting and desiring the reprobates to repent and believe.
What you are trying to pass is not what the word teaches.
I think you should read his commentary again.

I guess I should leave you with something: Are you sure you're not an Arminian? I think they may know more of what Calvin taught then you.

You are free to express your support of free will.

Never happened.

@Josheb Just trying to help you understand from my perspective.

I did not ask about any case other than the one proving one verse, 2 Peter 3:9, was specifically and solely about the elect. I did not ask for a case proving monergism correct. I already know that case and fully embrace it and espouse it. Nothing I posted should have ever been construed to say otherwise. All of the above is red herring, goalpost moving, straw man, ad hominem, or non sequitur. I see it did not take any time at all to avoid the effort to make the case for an elect-only interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 and attempt to make the discussion about me (if I'd done that I'd be banned). Very sad. When the opportunity to prove one single verse was exclusively about the elect the response was avoidant. Thank you for your time.

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb

The Lord Is Patient | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

The call to repent before it is too late should never make us think that God’s election will fail to accomplish its purposes. However, the elect will never pres

www.ligonier.org

Which is exactly what I posted (the alternative option at the end of my op reply). The passage is eschatological, not soteriological.

 

[JIM]

Still not sure what point you are trying to make.?

The statements that you posted seem to me to imply what I stated, namely that:

Therefore from all of that it is obvious that, for anyone and everyone who ends up in hell, it is God, and only God, who by His inaction caused them to be there.

I am curious if that is what you believe about God.

 

[Ritajanice]

The statements that you posted seem to me to imply what I stated, namely that:

Therefore from all of that it is obvious that, for anyone and everyone who ends up in hell, it is God, and only God, who by His inaction caused them to be there.

I am curious if that is what you believe about God.

To be honest, the Spirit hasn’t led me to understand any of that.

God is a just God...he doesn’t want any to perish....that’s what I’m getting coming to my mind.

Personally I can’t stand the thought of any going to hell...my personal thoughts don’t count.

Gods in control and whatever he chooses, is just and right!

 

[makesends]

Rom 9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ--I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit--
Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
Rom 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Clearly, Paul is speaking of the nation Israel here in his lament.

9:4 THEY are Israelites, every individual of them an Israelite. The body is made of individuals. The nonsense that it is only corporate is simply illogical.

 

[Arial]

It has become obvious that you do not understand even what a saving faith is.

You have hijacked the OP (and I followed right along with you) long enough. Go back and read it and deal with the actual questions posed. All this diversion has done is show that you do not believe Romans 9 teaches God's sovereign election in salvation. We get it. But that is not the question the OP put forth.

 

[Arial]

Does it make sense to use use 2 Peter 3:9 to teach God is not willing that any should perish, when Rom 9:22 declares God is willing for reprobates to perish.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter.

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Romans 9.

After reading these, does it not make sense that 2 Peter 3:9 is for the elect?

No to the first question. Yes, to the second.

The context of 2 Peter 3:9 has been well established by many posters in the thread that the "us" and the "any" in 2 Peter must of necessity be the same group---the people he is writing to.

2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:22 is in the midst of a discussion on why some are saved and others are not, in which Paul teaches on God's sovereign election. Verse 22 clearly shows that God endured those vessels prepared for destruction and that the long suffering involves two things---two groups of people. His power in bringing all who He has elected unto salvation. And the withholding of judgement of the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, until all those He knew from before the foundation of the world, have been gathered. The same "us" we see in verse 23-24, is the same "us" and "you" we find in 2 Peter 3:9.

If God forms vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, vessels for dishonorable use and vessels for honorable use; if He made vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, it cannot be said that He desires all to be saved without exception.

 

[atpollard]

@Papa Smurf also wrote: God makes it clear that the reprobate will be judged on the basis of what he/she did or did not do in this life, not on the basis of their fallen nature ..

I have to wonder if Papa Smurf has a point. Are people damned because of what they do or what they are? What does SCRIPTURE say God condemns men for?

Now we Reformed acknowledge that human beings DO WHAT WE DO because of what we are, but I would need a scripture that says God damns because of the mere desire to sin before I could acknowledge that as Truth.

I offer this:

Ezekiel 18:20 [RSV] 20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Matthew 7:23 [RSV] 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'

James 1:13-15 [RSV] 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; 14 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.

 

[atpollard]

To what repentance would the elect need to come?

This one …

Ephesians 2:1-10 [RSV]
1 And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Carbon]

Never happened.

Well, it's one or the other.

I did not ask about any case other than the one proving one verse, 2 Peter 3:9, was specifically and solely about the elect.

About being patient towards and willing none to perish? Yes, it is specifically for the elect. You can disagree if you like but that doesn't change the facts.

I see it did not take any time at all to avoid the effort to make the case for an elect-only interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 and attempt to make the discussion about me (if I'd done that I'd be banned). Very sad. When the opportunity to prove one single verse was exclusively about the elect the response was avoidant. Thank you for your time.

Try your best to prove your theory. Why would you be banned for that? Don't be silly.
It's obvious you can't prove it and you know it.

 

[Carbon]

I await the presentation of a case proving that position.

If you open your eyes to someone else's understanding that could be possible.

 

[David1701]

To what repentance would the elect need to come?

The elect are all just as much sinners as everyone else, before salvation; so, the unsaved elect need to turn from sin to God and believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[Carbon]

Carbon said:
However. It is speaking of one people. The elect.

I await the presentation of a case proving that position.

To what repentance would the elect need to come?

Good grief Josheb, I dont know how else to tell you.

I just think you have your mind made up in another direction. Consider again.
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
The Lord is not slow about His promise. - What is his promise?
but is patient toward you - Who is he being patient toward, and for what?
not willing for any to perish - Who is he not willing to perish?
but for all to come to repentance. - Who is he waiting for to come to repentance?

If your answer to any of the above questions is the non-elect that presents a serious problem.

If you dont see it yet, then I dont know what else to say.

 

[Carbon]

The Lord is not slow about His promise. - What is his promise?
but is patient toward you - Who is he being patient toward, and for what?
not willing for any to perish - Who is he not willing to perish?
but for all to come to repentance. - Who is he waiting for to come to repentance?

@Josheb

Again consider Jesus' words: John 17
17 Jesus spoke these things; and raising His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, 2 just as You gave Him authority over all [a]mankind, so that [b]to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth [c]by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.

6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything which You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on the behalf of those whom You have given Me, because they are Yours;

 

[Carbon]

The elect are all just as much sinners as everyone else, before salvation; so, the unsaved elect need to turn from sin to God and believe in Jesus Christ.

Amen

 

[Carbon]

To what repentance would the elect need to come?

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
And again, God condescends to us, speaking in this way so we understand. He shows His patience, mercy, gentleness, and love.



Yes, the elect need to come and they will come. According to his word,

9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) Eph 2:4.

God knows what He is doing. He isn't slow about what He promised. But He is patient towards the elect (patiently holding His wrath back towards the vessels prepared for destruction) because He knows our appointed time of salvation/repentance.

 

[Carbon]

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) Eph 2:4.

God having foreordained us to adoption (Eph 1:5) Through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. To the praise of the glory of His grace.

In 2 Peter 3:9, does it teach or even hint at the possibility that any other than God's elect, God is being patient to, because He promised to fulfill his promise to them to make them alive in Christ?
Does anyone think for a moment that if all of Adam's posterity was to be saved, God would have failed in saving everyone? All He has to do is place them in Christ, if this is His good pleasure it shall be done.
But be patient for what? Hopes that sinners would consider Christ of their own doing? How then could God's work be to the praise of the glory of His grace?

 

[Josheb]

This one …

Ephesians 2:1-10 [RSV]
1 And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Thanks, but they were dead in trespass prior to salvation, not afterwards, and there's no mention of repentance in that passage. It therefore looks like the appeal to Ephesians to is completely eisegetic copy-and-paste that creates the problem I mentioned earlier. If the elect are at risk of losing their salvation, then 1) they are not the elect and 2) that directly contradicts the Reformed position of assurance. I mentioned those two problems preemptively to help those dissenting so they would form a dissent avoiding those two problems and save us all some time and effort. My aid was ignored and wasted, and the problems committed any way.

That is not Reformed soteriology. It's not how proper exegesis is done, either.

There is a fairly direct and easy way to read 2 Peter 3:9 in a manner completely consistent with Reformed theology that does not run into either of the two problems cited. There are, in fact two ways of doing so. The first is by not limiting God to a single desire and understanding while the text is written to the elect, Peter's point about God's multiple desires is applicable to all. That is how Calvin read the text. Other Calvinist writers saw Peter's words differently, but they did so departing from Calvin's view. The other way is to understand the text as eschatological, not soteriological. That is how many Calvinist writers see the text, including R. C. Sproul. The elect were facing a soon-approaching wrathful judgment of God and the faithful of faith need to be faithful and overcome, lest they end up getting killed in the onslaught.


And, as far as we know, no Christians were killed. They sold their property because they knew it would soon be worthless, and they pooled their resources and helped each other survive first the persecution the entire Church suffered at the hands of Jewish and Roman leaders, and then lethal effects a war that lasted seven years and covered all of Israel and much of the Roman lands outside of Israel. The letter was written to the saints. They were already saved. 2 Peter 3:9 is not about how non-believers get saved. Thinking the verse is about how the unsaved get saved is a mistake, and it is a mistake for both monergists and synergists to make. It's bad exegesis. Reread chapter 3 again with that in mind and see for yourself.

And then provide an answer to the question asked because Post #111 does not do it.


To what repentance would the elect, the already saved, need to come?


Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

The saved person, the elect, has already come to repentance and been saved from sin. As a consequence, s/he has assurance he will by God grace and power persevere and be saved; he will not perish.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Anyone building on the foundation of Christ will be saved, even if all his/her work is lost. S/he will not perish. This is fundamental to our faith. It is what the resurrection and promise of eternal life is all about.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.



To what repentance do the elect, the already saved, need to come?


.